Of course you keep and eye on them and if there are nearby AI's you take them... You can use ur brain man
How to Nerf the Shoshone [Brainstorming]
- Thread starter MerchantCo
- Start date
Rooftrellen
King
The Shoshone get what they want from ruins, but ruins aren't generally too bad, randomly. Even when I get a map, if I get it early, it often shows me another ruin or two. If I get two bad ruins in a game, I generally consider myself really unlucky. They also get their second Pathfinder out more slowly than anyone else gets the first scout. While the first obviously has a scouting advantage over a warrior, to what extent is a roll of the dice (if you find yourself close to a desert, no so much).
I'd probably rather roll with America, in general, for scouting. You can see more, and therefore get more tries for good things, as well as being more likely to hit a few more CS's first.
Admitted, I haven't played with them, but extra land is really something for early game, and even then, it won't generally be a massive deal. More land sooner in a game means little unless you can use the advantage. Using tiles in the second ring right away generally won't make a big difference. Getting them in the third sooner could be somewhat more rewarding, but either way, it's an advantage that dies off.
I'd rather have Ethiopia or...almost anyone that has an early building that can easily be put in cities, which gives a slower start but keeps giving.
It just seems that the Shoshone have to win early or fight and claw late. They have 2 UU's, one only nice while warriors are relevant but also expensive to build compared to the normal unit, and the other a minor upgrade to a unit that you probably won't use in great numbers. The UA could be anywhere from great to mediocre, depending on how resources fall (and land around them), but in the end, they don't do anything so amazing.
They don't have ranged knights (or pikemen, even). They don't get faith from the first building they can make. They don't end up with more gold, culture, faith, etc. than anyone else.
They are the reverse of America, the ultra standard civ that only gets bonuses that aren't really very simple to exploit. America just has to survive early and get the UU's late, while seeing the whole world. The Shoshone have to ride their early advantages to the end of the game.
I'd probably rather roll with America, in general, for scouting. You can see more, and therefore get more tries for good things, as well as being more likely to hit a few more CS's first.
Admitted, I haven't played with them, but extra land is really something for early game, and even then, it won't generally be a massive deal. More land sooner in a game means little unless you can use the advantage. Using tiles in the second ring right away generally won't make a big difference. Getting them in the third sooner could be somewhat more rewarding, but either way, it's an advantage that dies off.
I'd rather have Ethiopia or...almost anyone that has an early building that can easily be put in cities, which gives a slower start but keeps giving.
It just seems that the Shoshone have to win early or fight and claw late. They have 2 UU's, one only nice while warriors are relevant but also expensive to build compared to the normal unit, and the other a minor upgrade to a unit that you probably won't use in great numbers. The UA could be anywhere from great to mediocre, depending on how resources fall (and land around them), but in the end, they don't do anything so amazing.
They don't have ranged knights (or pikemen, even). They don't get faith from the first building they can make. They don't end up with more gold, culture, faith, etc. than anyone else.
They are the reverse of America, the ultra standard civ that only gets bonuses that aren't really very simple to exploit. America just has to survive early and get the UU's late, while seeing the whole world. The Shoshone have to ride their early advantages to the end of the game.
After playing with the Shoshone in a few long games I am quite confident that they lose their momentum quite quickly; the edge they get is minimal and can often be matched by another Civ that pulls a pair of scouts first thing. Honestly, they were fun to try but I don't intend to main them.
I also got some flood plains and oases via the UA. And of course the goody huts gave my population a boost. This led to some serious gold in the early stages of the game and I still have huge piles of gold (at turn 200 or so) without using trade routes.
That means I can use the trade routes to move food around, making my cities grow even faster. Of course, I only had two cities before I took over three Japanese cities with catapults and riflemen--production is FAST when your cities are big! Now (1980) those catapults and riflemen are rocket artillery and infantry, about a dozen of each, which is easy when you have huge piles of gold. (To be fair, I'm playing with a mod that removes the cost of roads and railroads, but I didn't build many of those in the early game.)
Soon I'll upgrade those units again and go after Rome, which is the only civ preventing me from a cultural victory. So it seems to me that an early start on a good plot of land, and an early boost to city size so you can work it, certainly can provide a huge boost to the later parts of the game, simply by generating a disproportionate amount of gold.
JustinianIV
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2013
- Messages
- 245
1) Or the new theme song can be "This land is your land"
Link to video.
They do seem OPd at the moment, though it's probably too soon to say. I think one of their abilities getting the axe (or tomahawk) would be enough. I think it was a bit too much to give their Pathfinders the ability to ignore terrain PLUS choose which ruin bonus they want. Maybe make it chance based?
They just dominate the early game.
Link to video.
They do seem OPd at the moment, though it's probably too soon to say. I think one of their abilities getting the axe (or tomahawk) would be enough. I think it was a bit too much to give their Pathfinders the ability to ignore terrain PLUS choose which ruin bonus they want. Maybe make it chance based?
They just dominate the early game.
I got lucky with the Shoshone in my current game. On a huge continents+ map/epic/+2 AI civs/king, I wound up with most of the ruins. 3 upgraded pathfinders (and a non-upgraded one), 3 quick techs, a policy lead & the first pantheon & religion... the other civs around me have 1/2 to 2/3 my score.
Ramses settled his 1st expansion city near me & in a location I wanted; I waltzed in & took it before anyone even reached classical. That and I just popped terra cotta army.
It's not game breaking, but damn. If the dice roll your way it's almost like a cheat code for the early game.
Oh, and Ramses now loves me - between adopting my religion and my 2 trade routes, he's my bestie.
Ramses settled his 1st expansion city near me & in a location I wanted; I waltzed in & took it before anyone even reached classical. That and I just popped terra cotta army.
It's not game breaking, but damn. If the dice roll your way it's almost like a cheat code for the early game.
Oh, and Ramses now loves me - between adopting my religion and my 2 trade routes, he's my bestie.
IdiotsOpposite
Boom, headshot.
So you either want the Pathfinder to lose an ability that Scouts have (that is, the ignoring terrain cost) or you want them to get things from Ruins in the same way that all other Scouts do?
Honestly, the first would just make them a warrior with Native Tongue while the second makes them a warrior that ignores terrain. Either one would be an extremely underpowered scout replacement.
Shoshone needs nerfing asap
I just played a game as Shoshone. It felt like i played with cheat mode activated. They are insanely strong atm. After getting 2 pop, 2 techs, 1 culture, 1 pantheon and a composite bowman very early, the game was just gonna be too easy
I Can only imagine Them being banned in MP, because the one getting them would have a HUGE advantage
I just played a game as Shoshone. It felt like i played with cheat mode activated. They are insanely strong atm. After getting 2 pop, 2 techs, 1 culture, 1 pantheon and a composite bowman very early, the game was just gonna be too easy
I Can only imagine Them being banned in MP, because the one getting them would have a HUGE advantage
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
Frankly, I don't really think they need nerfing, except perhaps in a human multiplayer setting (in which case, Attila, Shaka, and various other civs are also OP and should be fixed--but they haven't been, because they have disadvantages too).
Anyone gotten the Sacajawea achievement yet? It's tough on Pangaea.
Anyone gotten the Sacajawea achievement yet? It's tough on Pangaea.
I don't know why you're worried about nerfing pathfinder anyway. 90% of players just save/reload games before/after ruins if they don't get the result they want. Click new seed on reload, the ruin result will change every time you load the game, so you don't even have to wait a turn.
Admit it. You've done it, or now you will if you hadn't thought of it.
Admit it. You've done it, or now you will if you hadn't thought of it.
SnowKomodo
Deity
I only reload when I don't like my starting location or when I'm alone on my continent on a continents map - and even then it's still only sometimes I do that
I would wager many players are similar to me and that it's much less than 90%
Yzman
Deity
Yeah that is hardly worth my time. Plus, its gamey and giving myself too much of an advantage.
MerchantCo
Merchant
I like the idea of having to produce the pathfinder first.
No, I don't do that. LOL and I've been playing Civ games for over 20 years now.
I guess that's one of the reasons the pathfinder seemed so awesome to me. Well no, it was mostly the upgrade to comp-bow, so I ended up with explorer units that could wipe out barbarians quite easily--they made me alot of CS friends early in my shoshone game!
Just finished a King/Huge/Marathon/Continents +/15 Civ/41 City States game. It was... long. A lot of time just hitting the next turn button over & over & over. Won with a cultural victory by January 2002, like 15 billion turns in.
It wasn't even close.
The early game I snatched up goodie huts left & right, using my 2 comp bow/1 pathfinder army to take over Memphis, got 4 techs before the other folks had 2, and had a religion before more than 3 pantheons were founded. Add that to 2 captured workers early on... and it was easy. No one wanted to mess with me on any front, and when they did, the Zulu & Aztec would denounce them & make war with them until I told them to stop.
While it was fun once, not sure I'll be doing that again.
Oh, and I haven't reloaded since Civ IV Vanilla, unless my random bot gives me a civ I don't really want to play
It wasn't even close.
The early game I snatched up goodie huts left & right, using my 2 comp bow/1 pathfinder army to take over Memphis, got 4 techs before the other folks had 2, and had a religion before more than 3 pantheons were founded. Add that to 2 captured workers early on... and it was easy. No one wanted to mess with me on any front, and when they did, the Zulu & Aztec would denounce them & make war with them until I told them to stop.
While it was fun once, not sure I'll be doing that again.
Oh, and I haven't reloaded since Civ IV Vanilla, unless my random bot gives me a civ I don't really want to play
