How Would You Implement A Classic Mode?

[reddishrecue]

Rome, Master of the New World

Through Hispania or Spain I guess.

 

[Crashdummy]

In this direction I see a bit easier approach:

1. On the screen of choosing civilization it's named "choose culture"
2. This screen also have "Civilization name" control, which allows choosing from all the civilizations from all ages, but default equals to the chosen culture
3. During the game, civilization name is used for all names, including settlements
4. During age transition you could also choose civilization name, which by default matches your new culture if you haven't changed the civilization name before, or your previous civilization name if you did
5. AI can't pick cultures which match either your culture or your civilization name. Not sure how it should work for MP and whether should work at all.

That way the changes of the game will truly be minimal and people will be able to play any civilization from start to finish, although their uniques will match their selected culture.

You still dont get that part of the problem with civ switching is that it interrupts your gameplay, your "solution" keeps this

If we choose Classic Mode we dont WANT to be interrupted mid game, so your point 4 would be terrible and makes no sense. In a Classic Mode, you wouldnt be removed from a game into any selection screen, ever, otherwise you woulndt be solving any problems. Classic Mode needs to remove Age transitions too, not just Civ switching, thats why Classic Mode is claled classic mode and not just Continuous Civs

You dont seem to understand yet that the issue is not just a naming one

 

[stealth_nsk]

You still dont get that part of the problem with civ switching is that it interrupts your gameplay, your "solution" keeps this

If we choose Classic Mode we dont WANT to be interrupted mid game, so your point 4 would be terrible and makes no sense. In a Classic Mode, you wouldnt be removed from a game into any selection screen, ever, otherwise you woulndt be solving any problems. Classic Mode needs to remove Age transitions too, not just Civ switching, thats why Classic Mode is claled classic mode and not just Continuous Civs

You dont seem to understand yet that the issue is not just a naming one

I totally understand it. But hear me out, there's a long list of the reasons why Civ7 will never officially implement full classic mode without age transitions, with full history length, all civilizations and so on. It just won't happen. So, now we could sit back and thing what they actually can do. And the list of options isn't that long:

1. Cosmetic option which would let keeping civilization name and city names, with all the gameplay things working as in regular mode. This would help some people, who have the problem with that part of immersion. Not all people. Not you, as I understand your complains, but still some.
2. Scenario mod created by community. It will be clumsy as all mods, but possible. Again, it won't help everyone. It will be mostly for people who can accept core Civ7 gameplay (I don't think many people would by a game to only play a community scenario), but want to play it the old way as well. Again, far from everyone, but some people will enjoy it.

Both options could have some variation, for example the first one could be implemented in different ways (including as a mod), second option could get some help from Firaxis, but overall I don't see anything beyond that realistically possible.

 

[Crashdummy]

I totally understand it. But hear me out, there's a long list of the reasons why Civ7 will never officially implement full classic mode without age transitions, with full history length, all civilizations and so on. It just won't happen. So, now we could sit back and thing what they actually can do. And the list of options isn't that long:

1. Cosmetic option which would let keeping civilization name and city names, with all the gameplay things working as in regular mode. This would help some people, who have the problem with that part of immersion. Not all people. Not you, as I understand your complains, but still some.
2. Scenario mod created by community. It will be clumsy as all mods, but possible. Again, it won't help everyone. It will be mostly for people who can accept core Civ7 gameplay (I don't think many people would by a game to only play a community scenario), but want to play it the old way as well. Again, far from everyone, but some people will enjoy it.

Both options could have some variation, for example the first one could be implemented in different ways (including as a mod), second option could get some help from Firaxis, but overall I don't see anything beyond that realistically possible.

None of those options would do anything to fix the issues, so none of those would work. I understand you think Classic Mode will never happen (i disagree) but half assed solutions will keep failling. If big, real changes are out of discussion, then Civ 7 is dead

Civ 7 has big, deep problems, that cant be solved with small, superficial solutions. You wont fix Civ 7 problems with merely cosmetic changes

If Firaxis want to recover from the hole they dug themselves into, they need to push A LOT of work and make what is neccesary, not trying to find an easy way out. There is no easy way out, saving such a situation will require work

Its a problem of the current times to try to find lazy solutions to real problems instead of putting the work required

 

[stealth_nsk]

None of those options would do anything to fix the issues, so none of those would work. I understand you think Classic Mode will never happen (i disagree) but half assed solutions will keep failling. If big, real changes are out of discussion, then Civ 7 is dead

Civ 7 has big, deep problems, that cant be solved with small, superficial solutions. You wont fix Civ 7 problems with merely cosmetic changes

If Firaxis want to recover from the hole they dug themselves into, they need to push A LOT of work and make what is neccesary, not trying to find an easy way out. There is no easy way out, saving such a situation will require work

Yes, there are 2 things we disagree on:

1. You assume Civ7 core approach has objective issues which need fixing. I think it's the problem with some part of the audience, while many other people still enjoy the game and think Civ7 core doesn't need changing.
2. You assume it's possible to create a full classic mode and maintain both modes. I don't see it as realistic.

I believe all arguments were already thrown into the discussion and now it just depends on what you believe in (pun intended). So, agree to disagree.

 

[Crashdummy]

Yes, there are 2 things we disagree on:

1. You assume Civ7 core approach has objective issues which need fixing. I think it's the problem with some part of the audience, while many other people still enjoy the game and think Civ7 core doesn't need changing.
2. You assume it's possible to create a full classic mode and maintain both modes. I don't see it as realistic.

I believe all arguments were already thrown into the discussion and now it just depends on what you believe in (pun intended). So, agree to disagree.

Yeah, i know you dont believe Civ 7 has objective issues, and thats the problem. Since you dont believe Civ 7 has issues, you keep proposing small or cosmetic solutions, but in reality its because you are fine with the current game and you dont want changes, what you want is that development time to be used in things you would use. I get it, its normal

Yeah, we agree to disagree

 

[Ordnael]

Though I haven't got to play CIV VII, yet (haven't bought a Nintendo Switch 2, yet, and I would like a proper full cart release for the NSW2)...why not just play the previous iterations of CIV if you crave for a "classic mode"?

 

[Gedemon]

None of those options would do anything to fix the issues, so none of those would work. I understand you think Classic Mode will never happen (i disagree) but half assed solutions will keep failling. If big, real changes are out of discussion, then Civ 7 is dead

Civ 7 has big, deep problems, that cant be solved with small, superficial solutions. You wont fix Civ 7 problems with merely cosmetic changes

If Firaxis want to recover from the hole they dug themselves into, they need to push A LOT of work and make what is neccesary, not trying to find an easy way out. There is no easy way out, saving such a situation will require work

Its a problem of the current times to try to find lazy solutions to real problems instead of putting the work required

you seem to think age transition in civ7 can be removed with a bit of programming, but have you asked yourself why there is a loading screen between ages in the first place ?

it's not needed for the gameplay, so it must be a technical necessity coming from the engine, maybe to allow the game to use all graphical assets on all platforms. (cf civ6 assets limit)

it's fine to want the classic mode back for civ8 with a new engine, but in the context of civ7 (and so threads in this forum) there are technical limitations that one need to consider.

 

[Leucarum]

Though I haven't got to play CIV VII, yet (haven't bought a Nintendo Switch 2, yet, and I would like a proper full cart release for the NSW2)...why not just play the previous iterations of CIV if you crave for a "classic mode"?

7 does make a lot of changes - removing builders, reduced micromanagement, army commanders - which are just amazing. I have struggled to enjoy other Civ games since 7, but... At the same time 7 is a deeply flawed game.

I think antiquity is the best version of a Civ game we've ever seen. But the quality drops first slowly, then very fast indeed with each age transition. Civ Switching exacerbates the problems with ages by locking civs into ages that vary between uninteresting and borderline unplayable.

So 7 is in a frustrating spot for me. I do think the devs made some changes which were fundamentally wrong, but 1/3 of the game is perfection. I don't personally want a full-on classic mode, but assumptions around players needing to play a full game, how rigidly they structure progression and how they handle snowballing I think need a long, hard look... And they call into question fundamental choices made by the devs. I can't see them winning enough players back to sustain the game unless they dial back some of the changes towards a more "classic" state.

 

[stealth_nsk]

you seem to think age transition in civ7 can be removed with a bit of programming, but have you asked yourself why there is a loading screen between ages in the first place ?

it's not needed for the gameplay, so it must be a technical necessity coming from the engine, maybe to allow the game to use all graphical assets on all platforms. (cf civ6 assets limit)

it's fine to want the classic mode back for civ8 with a new engine, but in the context of civ7 (and so threads in this forum) there are technical limitations that one need to consider.

As I understand, in Civ7 each age is actually a new game, with new map generation cycles (resource allocation phase is pretty similar to the one at original map generation, as I understand) and just placing new things at the locations of previous ones.

The reason for this is not necessary number of assets, it could just because original view of the game was to have 3 different ages. Although I agree that unloading previous ageassets clearly helps save memory and there could be potential caps.

 

[tman2000]

Yes, there are 2 things we disagree on:

1. You assume Civ7 core approach has objective issues which need fixing. I think it's the problem with some part of the audience, while many other people still enjoy the game and think Civ7 core doesn't need changing.
2. You assume it's possible to create a full classic mode and maintain both modes. I don't see it as realistic.

I believe all arguments were already thrown into the discussion and now it just depends on what you believe in (pun intended). So, agree to disagree.

Blame the audience.

The people who still enjoy the game are like 5,000 people.

I heard HBO forces its employees to post online to argue with people that don't like it's shows.

 

[j51]

I heard HBO forces its employees to post online to argue with people that don't like its shows.

Yeah but going down that road: Which side of this argument is mostly people with the CFC equivalent of the old Twitter egg?

 

[Gedemon]

As I understand, in Civ7 each age is actually a new game, with new map generation cycles (resource allocation phase is pretty similar to the one at original map generation, as I understand) and just placing new things at the locations of previous ones.

The reason for this is not necessary number of assets, it could just because original view of the game was to have 3 different ages. Although I agree that unloading previous ageassets clearly helps save memory and there could be potential caps.

The gameplay database is fully changed, yes, map is not fully regenerated, it's saved as a sqlite file (that maybe could be edited before launching the next era after the new civ selection, I should try that one day ) then, yes, edited on loading (and terrain update could be a reason to force a reload, but resources changes didn't require reload in civ5-6 IIRC)

Point is now that's civ7 was done this way (3 ages separated by a reloading), it would be extremely hard to undo.

You could merge the three DB, put everything into one of the game's age if the engine support it, but AFAIK there is no code/data left in relation to handling an "era" change in any of the 3 loaded "age", and you'll lack the triggers to change the graphics of a civ to a new "era"

Sure Firaxis could do all that I suppose, removing whatever feature is requiring the loading if there are, but IMO that would require a lot more work than making one or even two expansions.

 

[tman2000]

The gameplay database is fully changed, yes, map is not fully regenerated, it's saved as a sqlite file (that maybe could be edited before launching the next era after the new civ selection, I should try that one day ) then, yes, edited on loading (and terrain update could be a reason to force a reload, but resources changes didn't require reload in civ5-6 IIRC)

Point is now that's civ7 was done this way (3 ages separated by a reloading), it would be extremely hard to undo.

You could merge the three DB, put everything into one of the game's age if the engine support it, but AFAIK there is no code/data left in relation to handling an "era" change in any of the 3 loaded "age", and you'll lack the triggers to change the graphics of a civ to a new "era"

Sure Firaxis could do all that I suppose, removing whatever feature is requiring the loading if there are, but IMO that would require a lot more work than making one or even two expansions.

Imagine if they had just taken the time to make the Exploration Age actually fun instead of having a garbage religion mechanic. Like, imagine if the Age was a genuinely exciting and novel scenario that was fun enough to not care that you're basically playing a new game?

This is one of the enduring problems with Civ 7. So much of the game is just unfinished and bad, so we always have to differentiate between design concept and simply how it was implemented.

 

[Crashdummy]

The gameplay database is fully changed, yes, map is not fully regenerated, it's saved as a sqlite file (that maybe could be edited before launching the next era after the new civ selection, I should try that one day ) then, yes, edited on loading (and terrain update could be a reason to force a reload, but resources changes didn't require reload in civ5-6 IIRC)

Point is now that's civ7 was done this way (3 ages separated by a reloading), it would be extremely hard to undo.

You could merge the three DB, put everything into one of the game's age if the engine support it, but AFAIK there is no code/data left in relation to handling an "era" change in any of the 3 loaded "age", and you'll lack the triggers to change the graphics of a civ to a new "era"

Sure Firaxis could do all that I suppose, removing whatever feature is requiring the loading if there are, but IMO that would require a lot more work than making one or even two expansions.

I read this an all i can think of is D4 loading all the stash of all the players in the town.....

Anyway, i dont think the current implementation of Civ VII will work, maybe i'm wrong, time will tell

 

[aieeegrunt]

Though I haven't got to play CIV VII, yet (haven't bought a Nintendo Switch 2, yet, and I would like a proper full cart release for the NSW2)...why not just play the previous iterations of CIV if you crave for a "classic mode"?

Look at the playercounts for 5 and 6, that is clearly happening already

The problem is that means the franchise may have no future

 

[Calcifer]

I was thinking about the solution that would take the lowest effort to implement:

1. You choose your leader at game start which is attached to its civ (Franklin=America, Augustus=Rome and so on. It doesn't really have to be a civ that's been implemented, you could also add Machiavelli=Florence for example).
   • bonus: you could also allow to select leader and civ indipendently but I don't really see the point
2. Add a switch in the settings: use leader's civ / use heritage (see point 3). This affects you civ name, city names, units/buildings graphics.
3. Age-specific civs are now called "heritage" (Just a label I came up with, there could be better names but that's not the point). Every age you need to select a heritage which is basically the same age-specific civs we have now: there's a main ability, a custom culture tree and some unique infrastructure and units. You can keep the unlock conditions as they are now.
   • bonus: you could also add some "vanilla" heritages for the most purist players that don't want to mix up uniques so much: for example you could add expansionist heritage, military, scientific, economic and so on. I'm not gonna elaborate that much on the point, it's basically like adding a new civ.
4. Use the continuity/regroup setting to select how hard is the reset on age transition

Well, I realized while writing that this is basically the most proposed solution that is still rejected by most of the nay-sayers, so here's an alternate solution I came up with:

1. Locate the executable of you favourite civilization game in the Programs folder
2. Create a shortcut to desktop
3. Rename the shortcut to "Sid Meier's Civilization VII"
4. Change the shortcut icon to Civ VII's icon
5. You're good to go! Graphics may look a little outdated though, but you didn't even need to spend any money so in the end I think it's a pretty good deal.

 

[Crashdummy]

I was thinking about the solution that would take the lowest effort to implement:

1. You choose your leader at game start which is attached to its civ (Franklin=America, Augustus=Rome and so on. It doesn't really have to be a civ that's been implemented, you could also add Machiavelli=Florence for example).
   • bonus: you could also allow to select leader and civ indipendently but I don't really see the point
2. Add a switch in the settings: use leader's civ / use heritage (see point 3). This affects you civ name, city names, units/buildings graphics.
3. Age-specific civs are now called "heritage" (Just a label I came up with, there could be better names but that's not the point). Every age you need to select a heritage which is basically the same age-specific civs we have now: there's a main ability, a custom culture tree and some unique infrastructure and units. You can keep the unlock conditions as they are now.
   • bonus: you could also add some "vanilla" heritages for the most purist players that don't want to mix up uniques so much: for example you could add expansionist heritage, military, scientific, economic and so on. I'm not gonna elaborate that much on the point, it's basically like adding a new civ.
4. Use the continuity/regroup setting to select how hard is the reset on age transition

Well, I realized while writing that this is basically the most proposed solution that is still rejected by most of the nay-sayers, so here's an alternate solution I came up with:

1. Locate the executable of you favourite civilization game in the Programs folder
2. Create a shortcut to desktop
3. Rename the shortcut to "Sid Meier's Civilization VII"
4. Change the shortcut icon to Civ VII's icon
5. You're good to go! Graphics may look a little outdated though, but you didn't even need to spend any money so in the end I think it's a pretty good deal.

Its the most proposed solution by those that are not the ones asking for Classic Mode

Those of us asking for Classic Mode are asking for far more than just a naming convention. This "solution" that is proposed so many times has the issue that doesnt solve anything except the name of the "Civilization" which is just one of the problems

One of the problems which are not solved for example is that you are still taken away form the game into a new selection screen, which is a HUGE immersion breaking issue and you not only have it once, but twice

 

[Calcifer]

Its the most proposed solution by those that are not the ones asking for Classic Mode

Those of us asking for Classic Mode are asking for far more than just a naming convention. This "solution" that is proposed so many times has the issue that doesnt solve anything exxcept the name of the "Civilization" which is just one of the problems

One of the problems which are not solved for example is that you are still taken away form the game into a new selection screen, which is a HUGE immersion breaking issue and you not only have it once, but twice

And that's why I hope they're never gonna try to do a classic mode. If the most reasonable version of a classic mode (the one that doesn't need to sustain two different games at the same time) isn't helping at all with the most skeptical audience, I'd rather they focused their efforts on making the current version of the game better. But then here I am again repeating what others have already said on this forum multiple times.

 

[Maiq]

you seem to think age transition in civ7 can be removed with a bit of programming, but have you asked yourself why there is a loading screen between ages in the first place ?

it's not needed for the gameplay, so it must be a technical necessity coming from the engine, maybe to allow the game to use all graphical assets on all platforms. (cf civ6 assets limit)

it's fine to want the classic mode back for civ8 with a new engine, but in the context of civ7 (and so threads in this forum) there are technical limitations that one need to consider.

Hmmm they probably should have designed that better then