How would you order the Civ 5 civilizations in their historical importance order?

[H4run]

do the Polish able to assimilated the Gypsies after religious conversion? Gypsies is short of mystery for me, watched the documentary about Gypsy by BBC, I thought is more into black campaign toward the Gypsy than a documentary, as it mostly contributed to more resentment than actually understand who is Gypsies, and what is the factor that make them who they are, I thought mostly peoples today more focus into action than actually look at it as reaction toward something. Reading the commentary on calling genocide toward the Gypsies after watching the documentary even more frustrating.

While Russia I think RT have more positive documentary regarding Gypsy.

 

[Phrossack]

What does a series of monologues about Polish identity, Polish history, and Poland have to do with Civ V rankings?

 

[Domen]

Phrossack:

Well, not much. So let's end the Off-Topic.

Haroon:

As for Gypsies - I think that in Communist Poland they were ordered to settle in stationary houses (before that they lived in wagons and were on the move constantly), which contributed to cultural assimilation to some extent. However, new groups of "nomadic" Gypsies arrived from Romania later.

 

[Masada]

How can I forget about Multatuli? Very sharp example.

Ernest Douwes Dekker was Multatuli's great-nephew, and a National Hero. Although, I guess Multatuli is also a fair example of the phenomenon.

However I don't know if Indonesia sufferred somekind of Khaldunian inferiority complex as they completely fell in love with their ex occupiers like Dutch or Japanese, as many Indonesian like the Japanese in post world war 2, admire the culture of Dutch and Japanese and regard them as a high culture civilization.

I don't think Indonesians did. Those with the most exposure (for example the Dutch educated) usually had conflicted views about the Japanese and Dutch.

Sutan Sjahrir have a very positive point of view regarding Dutch and marry a Dutch woman while Soekarno wasting most of his biography talking and boasting up about how he able to charm Dutch women and date them.

Sjahrir was all around weird. So he's not a great example. And Sukarno's ability to charm Dutch women was often used to the opposite effect i.e. to knock the Dutch off their racial pedestal.

Also Soekarno and Hatta, especially Soekarno show a very positive attitude toward Japanese occupation they regard them as their asian brother who try to help Indonesia to raise up against the Western imperialist

Sukarno entertained that view for a limited period but changed tact quite quickly. Cooperation was also the norm among prominent pre-war nationalists. Sjahrir was one of the few non-communists who opted to go underground. But interestingly he did so with the knowledge and approval of Sukarno and Hatta. Hatta in particular wanted to go underground but the Japanese made an offer he dared not refuse. Sukarno was also conflicted and the Japanese actually offered him an out because they weren't convinced he could be kept to script but decided to make a go of it. (As it turns out the Japanese were right).

Inconsistency attitude that Tan Malaka really sick off, Sjahrir in his apologetic attitude toward the Dutch and Soekarno in his apologetic attitude toward Japanese, he later on try to educate the confuse Indonesian masses regarding what is imperialism, and what should they do with it, and they shouldn't be mbalelo or doesn't have any clear stance regarding

Part of the reason Tan Malaka's 1946 parliamentary coup against Sjahrir failed was because of his rabid anti-collaborationist stance which alienated a lot of nationalists at all levels who had willing and usually unwilling had to work with the Japanese. The army never quite forgave the Left in Indonesia for banging on that drum either. A lot of them including Suharto and Nasution had cut their teeth serving in the collaborationist PETA.

So that mean Indonesian are willingly even proudly assimilated and accepted Dutch or Japanese as part of their society or even in other case contrary, they proud to be assimilated to their culture.

I sorta can see how Dutch culture had an influence but I can't think of a single Japanese cultural import from the Second World War that's survived.

And they were totally assimilated with the Indonesian.

You don't think that's happening now? It's a slow process, sure, but it's happened before. (The point about Palembang also puts a new spin on the claim that Palembang has the most attractive girls amirite.)

I thought colonialism created the tension between this two race, and Dutch intentionally invite the Chinese to come to Indonesia as a second class citizen to take over trade under the supervisor of the Dutch, and they are made to be dependent to the Dutch to make sure their loyality (not until later on they created their own trade organization and able to build up power and gain bargaining position over the Dutch, and the Muslims build the same years later which we know as the SI or Syarikat Islam).

That would gel with the thoughts of Anthony Reid. I'm also inclined to agree with it.

EDIT: Sakerat Islam did start off as a sort of professional association for Muslim merchants and was aimed quite explicitly at Chinese. But it quickly became something else entirely. In this case, a political vehicle for "Indonesian" political aspirations.

 

[H4run]

I impress in your knowledge regarding Indonesia, and about the Palembang, well as you say they are known to be beautiful, some say also the dayax in Kalimantan are somehow mix with Chinese.

I do think the Chinese and natives now have a better relation, and they got someone like Ahok in the government level, a non Muslim chinese, and he is quite popular also. Backthen they got Kwiek Yan Gie in the government.

I think I drive this civilization discussion quite becoming out of topic I think I should stop talking about Indonesia

 

[caketastydelish]

1. China. From the printing press to gunpowder, how could they be ignored? They win over rome because even during Rome's power China was just as sophisticated in many ways, and even all of Rome's glory really had nothing IMO to compete with the Great Wall.

2. Byzantium/Eastern Roman territory. The eastern section of Rome was more populated with larger cities, more important from a historical point of view (crossroads between the east and west with better access to the silk road), more economical, more sturdy defenses, etc. While western Rome was undeniably important, eastern Rome was even moreso.

3. Rome. In my opinion the only area where western rome "beat" Eastern Rome, at least in terms of importance, is the catholic church. Yes there are orthodox Greeks but not near as many as there are catholics.

4. England/ Great Britain. Dominated the world indisputably for at least 4 centuries, and even in the 20th century their cultural impact with groups such as the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, etc was simply huge. Shakespeare gets probably more read than anyone else in the world. Obviously their influence has been well on the decline for years in more ways than one, but this isn't only about current times, it's about history overall.

5. United States. We've been at the top of the pack since the end of ww2. We were the tiebreakers in both ww1 and ww2 and we have the manpower to pretty much single handedly control middle eastern affairs. I would have actually ranked us lower on the list, but with Yahoo, eBay, Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and the internet itself all being American inventions, I'm going to have to at least put the United States in the top 5.

5. France. France and Spain were the closest colonial competitors to the UK. France wasn't occupied for near as long as Spain was by foreign invaders, and France also has had far more of a cultural impact, so they get a higher ranking than Spain.

6. Spain. The only thing I will say for Spain is that they got much more gold out of their conquests than France did because of where they conquered.

7. Persia. The reason Persia got as big as it was and for so long (I include both the "classic" persia and Iran from that time to where it got invaded by Arabs as all the same) was because of it's stability and tolerance of those they conquered. This they managed better than the Romans, allowing them to compete with them indefinitely whereas the rest of the (known) civilized world fell. Persians influenced Judaism which in turn influenced Christianity and even Islam.

8. Arabia. Founders of Islam, the second largest religion in the world. Countless contributions such as the ones they made in medicine and the invention of Algebra. Need I say more?

9. India. Religiously speaking India has been more prominent than any other country in the world. That alone earns them a spot on the top 10 IMO.

10. Russia. Largest country in the world, both Napolean and Hitler couldn't get it, Rivals with United States after ww2, helped launch the space race. Need I say more?

11. Germany/Prussia. Huge military culture which made the dominate Europe for some time. I'd go as far to say that they had a lot to do with the fall of Europe's colonization. England and France couldn't have troops overseas when Germany/Prussia was impolitely knocking on the door at home.


12. Greece. They are more or less the birthplace of western civilization, but they didn't have near the long-lasting effects of Rome, much less eastern Rome. Still they conquered lots of territory in a short period of time and expanded Greek culture around the world. Many philosophers and such came from Greece.

13. Ottomans/Turkey. Brought down the mighty Byzantine empire which says something in itself. They had enemies on all sides, and kicked their butt on all sides until losing out in ww1.7. Egypt.

14. Japan. I admit my knowledge of Japan is pretty limited, but still one of the more influential countries. I would have actually ranked them lower, but they had a profound influence on WW2, much more so than the dutch, thus giving them barely enough edge to secure a higher position on the list.

15. Netherlands. The dutch colonies were not as great as that of England/France/Spain, but they were arguably number four.

16. Portugal. The smallest significant European colonial power. Were it not for them Brazil would have been much different, so yeah, they're obviously important for having influence on such a big place.

17. Mongolia. Honestly it was a tossup between Portugal and Mongolia, but Portugal historically had less poverty. Even Portugal today has more influence than Mongolia internationally speaking, thus giving them the higher position. However the Mongolian empire was the largest empire in the world of a single stretch of land. It didn't last very long, but still a very impressive thing to accomplish.

------

The others on the list I don't know enough about to have an educated opinion.

 

[Masada]

Nah, this is about the only interesting discussion going on in the thread.

I impress in your knowledge regarding Indonesia, and about the Palembang, well as you say they are known to be beautiful, some say also the dayax in Kalimantan are somehow mix with Chinese.

I think Torajans are more beautiful but I'm biased. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of coastal Dayaks had Chinese ancestry. Borneo has been the site of some of the earliest (if not the earliest) Chinese finds in the Archipelago.

I do think the Chinese and natives now have a better relation, and they got someone like Ahok in the government level, a non Muslim chinese, and he is quite popular also. Backthen they got Kwiek Yan Gie in the government.

I don't think the use of "natives" is necessarily the best word. But here's an interesting point: for members of BPUPKI were Chinese which put them on an equal keel with non-Chinese Christians.

 

[H4run]

Nah, this is about the only interesting discussion going on in the thread.

If there is anything that interest me about Indonesia, is going to be their food, btw do you know that rendang according CNN is the best dishes in the world? and number 2 is nasi goreng? This should be count as one of the strong assets that Indonesia have as a civilization. If you haven't try one, one day if you visit Indonesia visit "rumah makan Padang" you find Indonesia's treasury over there.

http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/eat/readers-choice-worlds-50-most-delicious-foods-012321

I never try Polynesian food but think I miss Indonesian's food.

I think Torajans are more beautiful but I'm biased. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of coastal Dayaks had Chinese ancestry. Borneo has been the site of some of the earliest (if not the earliest) Chinese finds in the Archipelago.

Someone must be so proud of you well the most consensus for Indonesian for the most beautiful girl it is around Sulawesi like Manado, most of Chinese adopt their custom and surname and become part of Manado culture, and they are also famous for their beauty. I don't know much about Toraja, honestly, but maybe there are also lots of mixture with the Chinese population (as they are in Sulawesi) you should ask it yourselves, it is quite interesting how mix Indo-China apparently more beautiful population. And I do think mix race in general have a beautiful result, I think that's a reward from God for peoples being more internationalist, less nationalist and tribalist, the farer the gen the better the result.

I don't think the use of "natives" is necessarily the best word.

You know I agree with you in this, but as commonly agreed and used among the Indonesian, the Chinese and natives Indonesians in many peoples mind are still separated variable. It is a problem that only time can fix, hope there's no painful interruption during the fixing.

 

[Domen]

4. England/ Great Britain. Dominated the world indisputably for at least 4 centuries

Which 4 centuries are these ???

Shakespeare gets probably more read than anyone else in the world.

Some googling provided me a different answer (most read during the last 50 years according to squeedo.com):

1) The Bible
2) Little Red Book
3) Harry Potter
4) The Lord of the Rings

So the most read people in the world are:

1) Jesus of Nazareth
2) Mao Zedong
3) J. K. Rowling
4) J. R. R. Tolkien

 

[Traitorfish]

Jesus didn't write the Bible...

 

[Domen]

But the Bible is so popular only because of his teachings which it contains.

The Bible is of course a collective work, when it comes to authors.

Credit must go to one, because this is the contest for most read person. So I chose Jesus "Superstar".

 

[Bulldog Bats]

Domen - be careful there. If you are going to give credit, give it to his papa. Remember, Jews follow the Torah - a large part of the Old Testament, and don't believe Jesus was divine (as always, our prejudices and beliefs color our perception). The majority of the time period for the Bible was long before he lived.

 

[caketastydelish]

Even by the standards of that list, the British isles get 50%. Not bad for such a small place.

 

[Traitorfish]

Although "writes the best stories about wizards" doesn't offer much claim to civilisational greatness.

 

[caketastydelish]

In my opinion they do. The other way you can look at that is they're so great at writing everyone will read it, even if the theme of the book is something like that.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not sure that's something we can infer from the popularity of a few mid-brow fantasy novels.

 

[caketastydelish]

I think they're great. Countless literature comes from the UK. You only don't like it because you're Irish.

 

[Traitorfish]

not sure if serious...?

 

[Ajidica]

I think they're great. Countless literature comes from the UK. You only don't like it because you're Irish.

First, TF is a Scot, not Irish.
Secondly, you have an inherent bias toward literature from the UK because it is written in English. IIRC, more new books are published in France yearly than America/UK combined, but we rarely read French books because they are
a) written in French
b) written by French authors making them nearly incomprehensible.

 

[caketastydelish]

British literature is not just appreciated in America though. It is indisputable that British authors have had more influence.