How would YOU stop Terrorism?

[Bestbank Tiger]

Huh?

AQ gets recruits, money and protection because the infidels occupied the holy lands of Saudi Arabia and continue to invade the ME. Without the infidels AQ is nothing and would be killed off by other Muslims who dont want their brand of religion.

That's an awful lot like militia wackos wanting the US to be a white Christian nation.

And we didn't occupy the holy lands (Mecca, Medina, etc.) We set up camp along the Iraqi border at the request of the Saudi government, to protect them from Saddam.

 

[BasketCase]

I'm dealing with real world examples, not hypotheticals.

So am I. Yousef is a real world example. He got angry at us because of our support for dictatorships.

So now we have people who are angry at us for supporting dictatorships; people who are angry at us for trying to depose dictatorships; and people angry at us for sitting on our asses and neither supporting nor deposing dictatorships.

As I said earlier (though I forget which thread I said it in): terrorism isn't a jigsaw puzzle. It's a poker game.

 

[holy king]

How would YOU stop Terrorism?

declare war on it.

 

[Berzerker]

That's an awful lot like militia wackos wanting the US to be a white Christian nation.

How would a Muslim army in Washington effect recruitment for those white Christians? Sure, Fundies share similarities across ideological and religious views.

And we didn't occupy the holy lands (Mecca, Medina, etc.) We set up camp along the Iraqi border at the request of the Saudi government, to protect them from Saddam.

We were not just out in the boonies, we had bases near major cities and there's a whole lot more than just Mecca and Medina. There are sacred sites all over the country, but your opinion dont count. Their opinion counts and they said they were attacking us because we were violating their holy lands.

 

[Berzerker]

So am I. Yousef is a real world example. He got angry at us because of our support for dictatorships.

He is not a real world example, he's not an Iraqi Shia. You said Iraqi Shias might (or will) commit terrorist attacks against us because we did not intervene on their behalf. A real world example would be an Iraqi Shia committing terrorist attacks against us because we did not intervene on their behalf. And I thought you said you didn't know this guy's motive. Where did he say he attacked the WTC because Bush didn't remove Saddam from power? I've never heard that rationale from any terrorist, where did you hear it?

So now we have people who are angry at us for supporting dictatorships; people who are angry at us for trying to depose dictatorships; and people angry at us for sitting on our asses and neither supporting nor deposing dictatorships.

No, we have the first two but we have not been sitting on our asses. Your argument is ridiculous, the proof is the absence of terrorist attacks against countries that are not intervening in the ME. You've somehow confused the USA with these countries, we have been intervening...for decades.

 

[BasketCase]

A real world example would be an Iraqi Shia committing terrorist attacks against us because we did not intervene on their behalf.

Whoa, hold on. This is WAY off to the side of the point I was trying to get at.

I started off with this:

It pisses off the people we leave behind and sometimes makes terrorists out of them. Iraq, for example: if we left Iraq after the First Gulf War (with Saddam in power) the Shiites would have gotten mad at us.

I said people get pissed off when we don't intervene on their behalf. Not only Iraqis--that was just one example. And I said "pissed off", not "terrorists". I said U.S. ass-sitting behavior sometimes makes terrorists out of them.

And I thought you said you didn't know this guy's motive. Where did he say he attacked the WTC because Bush didn't remove Saddam from power?

Too specific. Yousef said (among other reasons) that he was mad at the U.S. for supporting "dictator countries". He didn't say which ones. Well, Iraq used to be a dictator country and did (for a while) receive U.S. support.

No, we have the first two but we have not been sitting on our asses.

Rwanda, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Burma, Palestine, India, Pakistan.

These are all nations who have pointed the finger directly at the U.S. and accused us of sitting on our asses. My source: the front page of the daily newspaper.

 

[Berzerker]

Whoa, hold on. This is WAY off to the side of the point I was trying to get at.

I started off with this:

I said people get pissed off when we don't intervene on their behalf.

You used Iraqi Shia, so where is the real world example of Iraqi Shia becoming terrorists because we didn't take Saddam out? How about Kurds? Where did this Yusef guy say he attacked the WTC because we didn't remove Saddam from power?

Not only Iraqis--that was just one example. And I said "pissed off", not "terrorists". I said U.S. ass-sitting behavior sometimes makes terrorists out of them.

But it was not an example of an Iraqi Shia turning terrorist for your stated reason. And I'm highly dubious of this guy Yusef, do you actually have a quote from him or was this gripe part of a laundry list? I do not believe he attacked us because we did not remove Saddam from power.

Yousef said (among other reasons) that he was mad at the U.S. for supporting "dictator countries". He didn't say which ones. Well, Iraq used to be a dictator country and did (for a while) receive U.S. support.

Yeah? The US does prop up dictatorships and many people dont like it. How does that help your argument? Propping up dictatorships is intervening. You're claiming we're getting attacked for not intervening, thats just ridiculous - we have been intervening for decades. This Yusef did not say he was angry at non-interventionists, he didn't say he was mad at China for not intervening... There are differences between propping up dictators, overthrowing them and not intervening. I didn't like the fact we were propping up Saddam, that does not translate into a desire to invade Iraq.

Rwanda, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Burma, Palestine, India, Pakistan.

We had an army in Saudi Arabia when the attacks started, do you understand what non-intervention means? So how many Burmese are over here killing Americans? Rwandans? According to your argument, they should be attacking us for not intervening. But they aren't...

These are all nations who have pointed the finger directly at the U.S. and accused us of sitting on our asses. My source: the front page of the daily newspaper.

The terrorists come from countries where we have been intervening for years, now you're changing the subject to countries where we do not intervene and that only proves my point - they aren't committing acts of terrorism against us. We dont intervene in Sri Lanka, why haven't the Tamil Tigers been hitting us? Because your argument is illogical, if the US was invaded by the Canadians and the Mexicans refused to help us out, I'd be mad at them but my enemy is the invader, not everyone in the world who aint helping.

 

[Ayatollah So]

One way to undermine it would be to stop hyperventilating like the world is ending everytime it happens. Part of its remarkable 'power' is the ability of a relative 'pinprick' to send entire populations running for the hills.

Not only is it sensible to be ... well, sensible, but it's important not to distract attention from the terrorists themselves and their methods. When the world sees their true colors staining through, they lose a lot of popularity. Sure, if there's a big juicy terrorist training camp in an isolated location, kill it. But for the most part, stand back and let them show their true colors.

but seriously, Lets do the TRIED and TESTED METHODS which have worked in the past.

What a crazy idea.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Terrorism will exist as long as man exists.

 

[BasketCase]

Did ICBM and I actually agree on something???

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Did ICBM and I actually agree on something???

We did?


Well, there's absolutely no way to root out terrorism for good, just as that there is no way to completely rid a city of crime. But it can be reduced.

 

[BasketCase]

You used Iraqi Shia, so where is the real world example of Iraqi Shia becoming terrorists because we didn't take Saddam out?

The Al-Sadr movement that's fighting the U.S. right now.

I win.

 

[BasketCase]

Bit of advice, Zerk. I don't wanna butt heads with you, because I like what you do in global warming threads. But I gotta lay down a little law here.

There will always be exceptions to rules. Not everybody who the U.S. has turned its back on has turned into a terrorist. I said people will get pissed off when we don't intervene on their behalf. I said

it pisses off the people we leave behind and sometimes makes terrorists out of them

Note the boldface word there. Sometimes they will turn into terrorists.

Am I understood?

 

[BasketCase]

You're claiming we're getting attacked for not intervening, thats just ridiculous

I always seem to have a problem getting this across.

Yes, I did claim that. And I also claimed that we're getting attacked for doing the exact opposite--by other pissed-off people.

There are many different and conflicting factions of terrorists. Some of them fight each other. They attack us for many different reasons. Some terrorists attack the U.S. because we meddle in other countries' business. Other terrorists attack the U.S. because we refuse to meddle.

There's no way to appease them all at once.

 

[Berzerker]

The Al-Sadr movement that's fighting the U.S. right now.

I win.

They aren't fighting us because we didn't take Saddam out in '91. They're competing with the Badr Brigades and other factions over control of the gov't. Oh, and since you keep forgetting this, we did intervene. What do you think we're doing over there now? Is the Al-Sadr movement attacking the Chinese for not intervening? Thats what you gotta explain because you keep using the USA as an example of non-intervention

 

[BasketCase]

Do you know who started the Al-Sadr movement in Iraq?

Saddam did. By executing a senior al-Sadr clan member. In 1997, if I recall.

And we let Saddam keep his throne. And not by accident, either. Schwarzkopf himself said there was nothing between us and Baghdad in 1991. He said we could have taken Saddam out any time we wanted.


The U.S. specifically leaves Saddam on the throne, and then Saddam kills your grandfather. You know exactly how you would feel about that.

 

[BasketCase]

Oh, and since you keep forgetting this, we did intervene.

Not for something like fifteen years. If we'd intervened five years sooner, the Al-Sadr movement in Iraq would not exist right now.

Is the Al-Sadr movement attacking the Chinese for not intervening?

China is not a superpower. Nobody gives a crap about them, and nobody goes to them when they need anything except tanks.

We're the strongest. Everybody comes to us when they want someone dead. When you need money, you don't ask a homeless guy on a street corner for a handout. You ask Bill Gates.

 

[Berzerker]

Bit of advice, Zerk. I don't wanna butt heads with you, because I like what you do in global warming threads. But I gotta lay down a little law here.

There will always be exceptions to rules. Not everybody who the U.S. has turned its back on has turned into a terrorist. I said people will get pissed off when we don't intervene on their behalf. I said

Note the boldface word there. Sometimes they will turn into terrorists.

Am I understood?

You still haven't shown me any real world examples.

 

[Berzerker]

I always seem to have a problem getting this across.

Yes, I did claim that. And I also claimed that we're getting attacked for doing the exact opposite--by other pissed-off people.

There are many different and conflicting factions of terrorists. Some of them fight each other. They attack us for many different reasons. Some terrorists attack the U.S. because we meddle in other countries' business. Other terrorists attack the U.S. because we refuse to meddle.

There's no way to appease them all at once.

Who are these terrorists attacking us for not being involved? Burmese? Tibetans? Rwandans? No, you cited some guy born in Kuwait - we got involved with Kuwait. China didn't, so why did Yusef attack us instead of China? And you dont appease them all much less at once, you meet the rational and do-able demands that have widespread support and that erodes the terrorists' base of support.

 

[BasketCase]

You still haven't shown me any real world examples.

Go read a newspaper and find them yourself. I'm still having nightmares about the time I used Iraqi Shiites as an example and you got it all out of context.

Al-Sadr. Yousef. Rwanda, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Burma, Palestine, India, Pakistan. Oh, and I forgot one--Israel. (Did you know there are Israeli terrorists? Some of whom have killed Americans in their attacks? My source: the Los Angeles times. I can't post a link because I read about Israeli terrorists killing Americans on an actual piece of paper.)