HUI Game #1 - Pacal II

[Abegweit]

Wow. There's a lot of bad advice on this thread coming from people who clearly don't understand the value of food in this game. We have two six-power tiles in the wheat and cows, followed by five for the corn. Easily beats anything you can get by chopping. Yet not only are people talking about BW before AH, some even want to put it before Ag.

So let's got back to where we were before the thread got off track.

Settle in place will be more than fine. Wheat/Corn/cows is a strong enough capital, don't really need floodplains yet. Keep those for the second city.

Agri/AH/BW is a definite starting tech sequence.

Build worker, warriors until grow to size 3, then settler.

...

The main other point early (since this is a "how to improve" game), is pay attention to what you improve early. In this case, once the worker comes out, you can either improve the what or corn. Go wheat first, since when improved, it's 5 food/1 hammer/1 commerce, instead of just 5 food for the corn (since it's not irrigated). If AH comes in before you're done the first farm (I forget the timing), then you're also better to improve the cow second, since pastures are shorter than farms, and improved 4/2/0 is better than 5/0/0.

QFT. Thank you, Habs.

Depending on what shows up, I might consider introducing Hunting and/or TW into this research sequence but definitely it's the right order.

 

[Slvynn]

@lymond
please delete spoilers. You ruin this thread with your post.

 

[Slvynn]

@Abegweit
No way it will outperform x2 worker chopping. 2 worker wil pop earlier, and then Settler. by then you will have alot land to improve and you will actuyally whip granary as soon as it aviable.
I think (sure) you are wrong, and while city will take its time to grow to use those res, workers can inject more production by chopping, so you in net lost. Check lots of threads that proved this, esp with expansive leaders.
And then, using those 2 workers you will build improvements much faster, following city's growth. City need not 3 improved improvements while its size 1. Both workers work 1 tile then second, then 3rd, while settler already on its way, and holkan is built.
I remind you that settler being built by chops when 1 worker improving 1 tile then chopping and second all time chopping, but all time they chopping holkan is under production, and being swapped to settler only at turns "chop delivered to city (done)"

So far i think you understimate power of BW and chops and cheap workers, and early settling of 2nd city on vital resources. (horse/copper)

 

[Abegweit]

@lymond
please delete spoilers. <snip>

Slyvnn, edit your own post please. Quoting a spoiler is as bad making one.

 

[Slvynn]

Slyvnn, edit your own post please. Quoting a spoiler is as bad making one.

i didnt quoted spoiler
check yourself dude, i am fine and i know what i am doing
The fact he revealed in spoiler is very common, and anyone should know that not always capital have vital res. Thats why, without any look on save and without any spoiler, its important to rex asap in order to grab resourses. Check my posts before that spoiler.
In my emperror games if i have such situation my 1st settler travel far, but i never leave myself without strategic resource.
There are 3 main at early stage of game : Horses, Copper, Iron. So you need to pick closest and grab it (even if you can see omly copper and horse, and if horse closer, HA is your way then). Bit later iron have hight importance so if no iron within borders and impossible to settle it already - your next target should be one who own it.

 

[Abegweit]

Yes you did quote him and it's true even though you used different words. Take out the references to the map please.

 

[Slvynn]

Yes you did quote him and it's true even though you used different words. Take out the references to the map please.

i deleted it due your request but please read my edited post.

 

[lymond]

oops, sorry...wasn't thinking. guess we're still in the introductory phase

 

[lymond]

hey slvynn, i realize English isn't your first language. while it's not bad, i do recommend that you proofread before posting

 

[Abegweit]

@Abegweit
No way it will outperform x2 worker chopping. 2 worker wil pop earlier, and then Settler. by then you will have alot land to improve and you will actuyally whip granary as soon as it aviable.
I think (sure) you are wrong, and while city will take its time to grow to use those res, workers can inject more production by chopping, so you in net lost. Check lots of threads that proved this, esp with expansive leaders.
And then, using those 2 workers you will build improvements much faster, following city's growth. City need not 3 improved improvements while its size 1. Both workers work 1 tile then second, then 3rd, while settler already on its way, and holkan is built.
I remind you that settler being built by chops when 1 worker improving 1 tile then chopping and second all time chopping, but all time they chopping holkan is under production, and being swapped to settler only at turns "chop delivered to city (done)"

The worker-worker-settler tactic has been pretty definitively refuted on this forum but I decided to test it out here just to show why. Undoubtedly, this comparison has been made before but it can't hurt to do it again so I compared your scheme to UWHab's. I played it in this game, so there are no screen shots because of the spoiler policy.

Chopping:
first settler trained at turn 31
6 forests died
capital is size 1
no tiles are improved
second warrior can be trained next turn

Growth:
first settler trained at turn 33
second warrior trained at turn 24 (= more def and more exploration)
0 forests died
capital is size 3
3 tiles are improved + 2 roads (I went TW instead of BW)
second worker can be produced in four turns (or settler in 7)

Are you honestly going to tell me that you think the first option is better?

True, the settler is out roughly one turn earlier (accounting for the roads, this is about right). However you are about 14 turns behind in development, the second worker not withstanding. And, of course, you have lost six forests which could be used for many other purposes.

You are also behind in exploration. Should you lose your starting warrior (unlikely at Monarch but certainly possible), you will be behind by all measures unless you decide to send your settler out into the wilderness on his own.

So far i think you understimate power of BW and chops and cheap workers, and early settling of 2nd city on vital resources. (horse/copper)

I think you overestimate the power of early workers if all you are using them for is to kill forests. With strong resource tiles, you want to be working them ASAP.

 

[michmbk]

W/W/S used to be viable when you got 30 hammers per chop, but now, I can't see any value to doing it except maybe with Joao in very limited circumstances. A worker improves the wheat/cows/corn and you then have a great worker/settler pump from your capital, with three strong tiles to speed those units along. I didn't get home from work in time to shadow this one tonight, but might try tomorrow night if time permits.

But I agree with Abegweit - worker followed by growth to size 3 or 4 is better for long-term growth.

I do think there's an argument to AG/BW/AH as opposed to AG/AH/BW, as there are two high yield tiles opened up by AG and slavery/chopping are both useful, but definitely agree that AG is an absolute must to start.

 

[Shafi]

Been trying to attach the WB file for the last couple of hours, but i keep getting the message invalid file. Any idea why?
I even tried uploading one of the many WB saves i have on my PC, which i have got from the forum but get the same message.
Will try this evening again, i just came in to work ... so that's about 9 hrs to go ....

BTW - I think i am definitely going to tech Agri / BW from there Hunting or AH is still open to debate, i guess we can debate it when we get to that stage of the game.

Settle in place for sure.

Build order - Worker / Warrior / Warrior and then should it be worker / settler or settler / worker ?

Also do we try to sneak in the Henge at some point or just forget it and Rex? What would effect this decision? Maybe if we have stone in the 2nd city?

 

[Slvynn]

@Abegweit
it can not be cap size 1 because its normal speed, and you improve tile when 2nd worker done. You need only 1 improved tile and you building actually warrior/holkan while chopping settler (SWAPPING QUEUE), and by time settler is done it should be at 2.
Tile improvements can be done very fast with 2 workers, fitting cap size.
Please dont do that becase you just doing it wrong.

So what i saying (in my initial posts) that you should build 2 workers at start. They are cheap and built by hammers from forest (2nd one). Then grow, 1 worker improve/chop/improve (following CITY GROWTH), 1 worker chop settler being swapped to warrior/holkan, so forest being delivered for settler, but other turns city grows. By this time your city will be growing to 3 and you will finish 3rd tile improvement after you finished chopping settler with 2 workers pretty quick.
City that have size 2 need not 4 improved tiles, so you can match it with 2 workes, - you will get your improvements fitting to city size but you also will be able to chop in same time. 2 workers is advantage with expansive.

By end of your period i'll have city pop 2, 2 tiles improved, settler built earlier, have more 1 warrior and holkan being in production.
After holkan you get granary to build, if no granary then another holkan, being swapped to granary as soon as granary is aviable. Grow pop almost till end of cycle (but dont advance +1), and whip, next turn you will have your pop back but alreay at granary boni of hlaf-stocked food. So you lose only 1/2 of pop actually and granary is built.
Meenwhile you have time to build improvements further, and then with granary (making holkans) you grow + 1, and stop at 4 pop to pop settlers.
You have already few warriors and holkans, so you have defences and defences that can already advance outside of your capital border to new city spots, fog-busting space.

To cook fish you just need to know how to cook it and you need fish itself. Consider Pacal is a fish, but (its my opinion) you cooking it in wrong way. 2 Workers is great bonus, and you will catch very fast, the example you wrote me is not valid example , sorry. all that time you have 2 workers working, and that means alot. Bui8lding settler your city is growing pop, and getting you closer to melee unit, which production you can always emphasize in case some barb getting close.

 

[vicawoo]

Settle 1S is a viable gamble, you should lose 0 resource tiles, you gain some flood plains, and you lose a turn.

Animal husbandry, well if you can finish bronze working before you finish your first pasture, that's alright. It's agriculture 9, animal husbandry 14, bronze working 14. Worker finishes in 15, farm 1 in 5 (20), farm 2 in 6 (26), pasture in 4 (30).

And WWS being refuted on this forum, don't speak for the forum. There are situations in which it's viable and even optimal. In this case, getting food heavy 5 and 6 yield tiles off one tech and another 6 yield off another makes it inefficent.

 

[Shafi]

Well folks, i'm just finishing up work. Will probably play the first round in about two hours, so expect the first update around 3 hours from now .

 

[Slvynn]

I agree with trying 1s spot for settling, but disagree on Agr/AH/BW.
The thing that on normal it isnt long to wait 2nd worker pop with help of chops.
2nd worker - Gain is massive : and with slight delay in city growth, city recieve much more production. And equal time to grow.
Explaining:
The way i propose is chop at least with 1 worker when you have them both, having BW, and this production owerflow also help to build warrior/s to fog-bust and explore.
City will have Corn farmed to moment BW discovered, and then chopping starts.
The way i proposing is different from Abegweit's understanding of it.
Pop starting to grow after 2nd worker built, and with BW you can inject alot of production after turn 23 , and that injection is massive, and cover -1 pop -1 tile loss for few turns (cow farm few turns after turn 30)
in my strat by turn 39 cow pasture will be built and worked (2 turns work time - 2 workers), while empire will lose in terms of pop grows only turns that worker 2 was in production + 3 turns of forest injections into settler.
Your strat growth loss > production being made by food, all time of settler production + 2nd worker production later.
And you able to save that food, which being replaced by forest hammers.
So comparing your pasture at turn 30, loss of food to settler/worker, much less production total, and turn of anarchy that lose 3 tiles work, and my 2 workers, pasture at turn 39, alot of hammers for settler, same growth, and anarchy that lose 1 tile work.

City also grow not less due settler being built only at turns when forest been injected, just bit later.
The loss is forest, but gain is more warrior, early settler built by hammers from forest exclusively, and 2nd worker.

So overall.... I am still sure you are wrong. Pity i am on job, so cant make shadow save.
BW before AH means alot of production can be injected, food saved, tiles cleared, and pass to slavery earlier will provide lesser net lose of production/food due Anarchy. Earlier - Better.
2nd worker means you will have early chopping hand, and after it double speed of pasture construction > travel to 2nd city and work there.

 

[roberteriksson]

Slvynn, I'm sure you are making valid points but I just can't get through your posts. Read through them before posting and insert some more space/new lines as well.

(Edit: I'm seriously interested in what you have to say)

 

[lymond]

Slvynn, I'm sure you are making valid points but I just can't get through your posts. Read through them before posting and insert some more space/new lines as well.

(Edit: I'm seriously interested in what you have to say)

Yep, I tried to point that out above to Slyvnn, but should have prefaced it better. For the same reason as you, I think he has a lot of good info for us, but I can't quite make it out. Jumbled or missing prepositions, words, etc..

Slyvnn, I'm going to edit your own post above to show you how to put sentences together a bit better. I know it's not easy to learn, especially when your first language uses a different sentence constructs like say German or Asian languages. Your spelling seems great - it's just sentence structure and odd wording here and there.

 

[Slvynn]

Yep, I tried to point that out above to Slyvnn, but should have prefaced it better. For the same reason as you, I think he has a lot of good info for us, but I can't quite make it out. Jumbled or missing prepositions, words, etc..

Slyvnn, I'm going to edit your own post above to show you how to put sentences together a bit better. I know it's not easy to learn, especially when your first language uses a different sentence constructs like say German or Asian languages. Your spelling seems great - it's just sentence structure and odd wording here and there.

Thanks, and really, it will be appreciated. I am just not native English speaker, and my grammar (sentence construction) sucks, while i know every single word in english. )
I think that it cause some troubles when i try to pass some idea to people, and they cant get it clear b/c of my gibberish (Slavic)grammar

So far, my revised Simplified sequence:
1. Worker / Agr.
2. Agr finished > BW, Worker finished > Next worker in queue > worker make farm. (Finishing farm at turn 20, starting farm 2)
3. BW finished, Revolution to Slavery. Meenwhile worker goes chopping, pops worker very soon with big overflow to settler. Turns back to farm 2 to finish it (2 turns work remain). 2nd worker goes choppin.
4. Next turn queue being swapped to warrior, and city grow.
5. You check carefully when workers deliver hammers, and in same turns they finish chop you swap queue to settler, and next turn, if no forest delivered, return to warrior.
6. City grow with 2 farms, and great forest injection into settler, while still growing, except turns when you &#8220;deliver&#8221; hammers to settler.
7. Settler pops very soon, and right after AH is done (t37) and both workers complete pasture by turn 39.
8. You built settler, have worker, you saved a lot of hammers and turns for growth, and have 2 xtra warriors at least (even 3 with overflow.)
9. Warriors go fog-bustin/scouting. And you ready to make another settler at turn 39-40., having all stuff improved, worker 2 already moving towards city 2 , you have couple of warriors.

 

[Abegweit]

Thanks, and really, it will be appreciated. I am just not native English speaker, and my grammar (sentence construction) sucks, while i know every single word in english. )
I think that it cause some troubles when i try to pass some idea to people, and they cant get it clear b/c of my gibberish grammar

Your English is fine. While your grammar is not perfect, your sentences are quite coherent and easy to understand. The problem is that they don't fit together. It's all a jumble and I have little doubt that you write the same way in your native language, albeit with better grammar.

Post 25 is an excellent example, especially good because it doesn't relate to the discussion about opening sequences. In the time it took me to write a couple of sentences in response to this post, it grew from one short paragraph (the first one) to its current size with at least two edits along the way. None of the additions had anything to do with the original point - which was about spoiler information. They didn't provide additional facts to support your point and they arguably contributed to the spoiler problem.

Significantly, neither of the "edits" actually modified the previous content of the post. Instead you added one paragraph and followed it with another. IOW, you added jumble. If you actually were making a coherent amplification of your point, then you would have made some changes to the previously-written content.

I have to think that the main reason why your posts are all jumbled up is because your thoughts are too. To the extent that I can understand what you are saying, you are not only wrong but also contradict yourself. I'll have more to say about that in a bit.

So I agree with roberteriksson. You need to think more about what you are going to say before you start typing. Then re-read it afterwards to see if it fits together and makes a coherent whole. Especially look to see if it actually conveys the point you are trying to make.