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HUI Game #1 - Pacal II

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Shafi, Oct 5, 2009.

  1. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    I've very rarely considered a two worker start to be optimal, but since slyvnn seems pretty passionate about it, when I get home tonight I'm going to shadow the first 50 or so turns doing it the way slyvnn outlines, and then the way I would usually do it (worker, grow to size 3 or 4, then worker/settler) and see if we can make a valid comparison from the two.
     
  2. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    Abegweit, its not jumble, its just bad grammar, and i not contradict myself.
    The first posts idea was, as i explained in my last posts, to open with Ag/BW and to do 2 workers. But i did agreed that may be bw opening is better. That was mistake, but my initial strat i using is not. Agri/BW/AH is still optimal opening.

    While i am actually quite intelligent man having quite intelligent job, quite inteligent social position, and never viewed as dumb , having bad english self-expression skills recieving such critic from you, and delicate "you are idiot, dude" , and fact you using that my self expression skill IS bad to prove i am incoherent by myself, i dont think your posts can be viewed as "coherent" ones due your incoherent perspective
     
  3. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Okay Slyvnn, I'm going to attempt an edit of your post - line by line - to help you out a little. Of course, I may mess up the translation in parts I don't understand at this point. Regardless, the key here is helping you write more coherently. I just want to understand what you aresaying, because I think you have some great input and I need it. I apologize in advance if any offense it is taken, but please note that no offense is intended. Here's your last post below with my edits in red and commentary in blue:
    :)

    1) I agree with trying 1s spot for settling, but disagree on Agr/AH/BW.
    (This sentence is okay

    2) The thing that on normal it isnt big time for waiting 1 worker pop with help of chopps.

    This thing is, on normal speed it isn't a big deal to wait for 1 worker to pop with the help of chops

    3) Gain is massive : and with slight delay of city growth, it recieve much more production. And equal time to grow.
    My translation here may be off since I didn't understand the sentence, but I will try to rewrite for the sake of sentence structure. I assume this sentence references the previous sentence with respect to building a worker.
    With a slight delay of city growth, the city will receive much more production later and equal time to grow. Note that this statement would benefit from some type of calculation to prove your point

    4) The way i propose is chop at least with 1 worker when you have them both, having BW, and this production owerflow also help to build warrior/s to fog-bust and explore.

    Once BW is researched, I recommend that you chop at least 1 worker. Also, the production overflow from chopping will help build warrior(s) to fog-bust and explore (I probably missed an important point here but had no clue what you meant by "when you have them both". I think that needs clarification)

    5) The way i proposing is different from Abegweit's understanding of it.

    My approach here is different from Abegweit's

    6) Pop starting to grow after 2nd worker built, and with BW you can inject alot of production after turn 23 , and that injection is massive, and cover -1 pop -1 tile loss. (cow farm few turns after turn 30)

    Continue to grow your city after building the 2nd worker. With BW you can inject a lot of production (hammers? whipping?). This injection of production is massive and will cover the loss of 1 population and 1 tile. (Build the cow pasture a few turns after turn 30)

    7) in my strat by turn 39 farm will be built and worked (2 turns work time - 2 workers), while empire will lose in terms of pop grows only turns that worker 2 was in production + 3 turns of forest injections into settler.

    Sorry, I just don't follow this sentence at all, so I may not translate correctly

    By following my strategy, you will have a farm built and worked by turn 39. (2 workers = 2 turns to build farm) The city will not grow only during the turns that the second worker was in production and the settler was built using 3 forest chops.

    8) Your strat growth loss > production being made by food, all time of settler production + 2nd worker production later. And you able to save that food, which being replaced by forest hammers.
    I just don't follow this one at all....sorry

    9) City also grow not less due settler being built only at turns when forest been injected, just bit later.

    Your city will not grow slower since the settler is only built at turns when the forest is chopped.

    10) The loss is forest, but gain is more warrior, early settler built by hammers from forest exclusively, and 2nd worker.

    You lose the forest, but gain a warrior, 2nd worker, and an early settler, which you built exclusively by hammers from forest chops.

    11) So overall.... I am still sure you are wrong. Pity i am on job, so cant make shadow save.

    This is fine, but I'd add an "I" before "can't"

    12) BW before AH means alot of production can be injected, food saved, tiles cleared, and pass to slavery earlier will provide lesser net lose of production/food due Anarchy. Earlier - Better.

    BW before AH will allow for more production, food saved, tiles cleared, and an earlier switch to slavery. The switch to slavery will provide less net loss of production/food due to Anarchy. The earlier the switch the better.

    13) 2nd worker means you will have early chopping hand, and after it double speed of pasture construction > travel to 2nd city and work there.

    Okay, I think this sentence helped me understand line 8 a bit better. Be careful with the use of ">". I see now that you are using it in terms of "navigation" or "flow". In other words, ">" means "the next step". Many folks just think of it as meaning "greater than" or "better than". I actually have used ">" in this respect many times, but it depends on the context and it was technical writing at the time. Overall, this last sentence is okay, but try something like this:

    The early 2nd worker will allow you to chop faster followed by double speed of pasture construction. The 2nd worker will follow the settler to the 2nd city.

    I hope you find this helpful. I think some additional clarification/examples need to be interwoven in here. I think you intended to do so anyway, but you were at work. Lastly, proofreading or reading over you post before submitting is good idea.

    Peace
     
  4. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    Thanks, btw i meant pasture in sentence 7 so i edited initial post. My mistake, sorry.
    And your "editing" helps, but lets get back to game and sequence. :)
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @Abegweit - I agree with Slvynn that what you said was a bit harsh. I'm not really sure that you intended it to be that way. I think the issue is twofold. 1) Bad grammar due to a second language 2) Second, and more importantly, having to rethink everything in that second language.

    I'm not fluent in a second language but know some French, Spanish and German. It's definitely a flaw in American education that more emphasis on second languages (even third) is not focused on a children early, especially conversational. I took 3 years of Spanish in high school, plus French, and can't speak coherently to anyone. It amazes me every time I go to Europe to see how well many Europeans speak English.

    Slvynn, I'd kill to be able to at least write as well as you do in another language. You are not doing that bad at all. Just some work on grammar and flow of thought. Working on sentence structure actually helps with that "flow".
     
  6. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    More than that, i found some offencive, arrogant perspective in posts of Abegweit, and from 1st post he sounded (sounds like?) he think that all people who have different opinion from his opinion are stupid. Now being offended that his vision of strategy is completely wrong (i based on his results from his tests) i think just holding grudge against me.... :p
    And yes, i think you are wrong, espessially in your last post, and you should work on your perspective.
     
  7. TheLazyHase

    TheLazyHase King

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    Try to go in France. You will see that Americain are not alone. I suppose English people are bad at foreign language too, but I don't have too many example. Anyway, what matter is the ability to never, ever need to speak another language more than education, and there is not a lot of country that actualy pull that off. Too bad it end as a problem rather than a strength.
    I think that the problem is not in english skill for Slvynn. Being foreigner myself I tend to understand how he construct his sentences, but I don't really get what is the idea behind.
     
  8. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    We settled in place, with the idea of settling a 2nd city to the south to make use of the flood plains. The hut in the BFC gave us gold. Wait it gets better ….

    Spoiler :


    A 2nd Corn tile in the capital BFC!!! Phants to the south … So Construction looks more attractive now?
    We begin building a worker, and our tribal elders begin to research the mysteries of Agriculture with the promise of more food than our city would need for a thousand years!!!
    Meanwhile our poorly armed but brave warrior heads to the eastern tribal village, so far his journey has been uneventful.
    Our warrior reaches his destination ….

    Spoiler :


    We pop Masonary …. Woot Woot !!! I am loving this!
    We complete our quest for the knowledge of Agriculture and task our tribal elders with researching Bronze Working next.
    We are notified that someone has founded Buddhism. We finish building the worker and now start on a warrior for protection. The worker is quickly dispatched to improve the wheat tile.
    Meanwhile our heroic warrior has now journeyed to the unchartered territory to the south, where he encounters a strange land ruled by this Chic ….

    Spoiler :


    Hmmm …. Quite a looker and she wants to have “Closer relations” too …. Pity we might have to kill her ….
    By the way Cathy’s capital is just 6 tiles away and we can just about fit in one city between her capital and ours …

    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :


    That’s a sweet looking capital with a sweet looking leader to boot …
    I am definitely thinking rush, question is what do we use Axes? Holkans? Chariots? I guess it also depends on whether we have Bronze.
    Meanwhile we are informed that someone has founded Hinduism.

    Here’s the known world as it stands now,

    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :


    Seems we are on a narrow, long continent, and the land to the north is definitely crappy so we have nowhere to go but south, and given where Cathy is that would have to be with the use of a military expansion. The land to the south of Cathy looks to be a lot greener as it obviously must be closer to the equator.

    Here’s where I am thinking of putting our 2nd city. Any other suggestion?

    Spoiler :


    Ok so I have stopped this turn set at this point because we need to make some decisions,

    1) Do we rush Cathy? I think the answer would have to be a resounding yes, but I’m asking anyways.

    2) What do we build next? Warrior / Settler / Worker as per my original plan or Holkan / Holkan / Holkan / Holkan …. For a Holkan rush? How many Holkans do we need to have reasonable odds? Or do we build warrior / Settler and settle the 2nd city in between ours and cathys capital in the proposed location?

    3) What do I tech next? My thoughts are if we find Bronze close by, we tech AH while hooking up the bronze for Axemen and go for an axe rush, If we don’t see Bronze in the vicinity we go for Hunting, and chop 6 or so Holkans out and go for a holkan rush? I must say I am not vey confident of a holkan rush but the only thin in its favour might be speed. Of course the other option is we tech AH find horses and build chariots, and go for a chariot rush.

    4) If we find Bronze our immediate priority would be to hook up the Bronze correct? So the 2nd city would go wherever the bronze is?

    And for anyone interested here’s the save game file up to this point in time.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Jaaboo

    Jaaboo Prince

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    You should play out one more turn so we can see if you have copper or not!
     
  10. JTMacc99

    JTMacc99 That's a paddlin'

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    ETA: OOPS. Too late. Well, this is my after the fact advice. :p

    You probably need to zip the WB file.

    I would certainly settle in place. I count a bunch of hills in the BFC to go with that food and those grassland river tiles. It is a perfect bureaucracy capital right where it is. Plus, you've got enough forests to help chop out a wonder should you want one later. As for now, you're going to be best off with improving the three foods, mining a couple hills, and then using it for a superb worker/settler pump once it's up to size. You'll also be able to chop out a half price granary at some point, perhaps with the forest you don't destroy by settling one south, and put the overflow into a extra defensive unit.

    Mad's research path makes sense to me for the following reason: The first worker will immediately set to work on the two grains. By the time you pop out the second warrior, both grains will be done (or about done) and the city will be steaming towards becoming a size four city. BW will be done and while you are working on Hunting/AH, your warriors will be off exploring the best places to settle and your worker will begin mining two of the wooded hills. Each of those chops will help speed up the worker and the settler you're working on.

    Once the settler is done, you can build a couple of your UUs in the capital while improving the cows and quickly growing the city to the happy cap. After that, set the capital back on worker/settler/worker/worker/settler/worker/settler duty. Slide in a defensive unit or two when needed, or grow another pop point if you find and hook up a happy resource at some point.
     
  11. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    Leave holkans out of it; there aren't any because we don't have hunting. Besides, you shouldn't be training holkans until you have a barracks.

    This doesn't work because you won't be finished BW when the first worker is done. If you start with AG, you can't chop yet. Or did you mean to start BW before AG, something else you have endorsed???

    Correct. Which is why one worker is enough.

    Not only holkans but now granaries. :crazyeye: What IS your tech order anyway?

    Whatever dude.

    Perhaps you might like to explain how having a pasture many turns later is a benefit? :rolleyes:
     
  12. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    2nd city build it on one of the 2 ivory tiles. Plains ivory gives you a 2-tile city square, and it's not an overly impressive improved square (although I guess riverside financial it turns into 1/3/3[?], which isn't bad).

    But damn, you're in tight against Cathy. She's a mean REXer. Your options now are:
    1. hurry to get the settler out, go settle on the ivory, and then go for a 2-city rush.
    2. just build holkans in your cap and rush.

    You probably want about 2-3 holkans per defending unit you expect to face, so you'll probably need at least 7 or 8 to have a chance at capturing her city.

    Finish up BW. See if there's copper. If there is, I'd say go settle on it, and then you can rush with Holkans and axes. If no copper immediately close by, then try the holkan rush. Good luck!
     
  13. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Based on the land you can see, sure looks like you absolutely have to rush - limited land with a creative neighbor who's also a powerful rexer = not good.

    So yes, if you find copper, that's a major priority for city #2 - axes would be better to rush with. I haven't played monarch in awhile, but I'd say about 8-9 axes with a holkan or two to protect against the axe counter would be good.

    If forced to do a holkan rush, you might try to get away with less, say 7 or so holkans, sacrifice quantity for speed, and focus on at least taking moscow - you could then finish cathy later with elephants.

    Plan to use your trees for units - that's probably best approach to speed the rush.
     
  14. JTMacc99

    JTMacc99 That's a paddlin'

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    If her capital is on a hill (seems unlikely, but possible) you'll need A LOT of Holkans. She's creative, so by the time you build your army, she'll pop that border again. That gives her one extra turn to whip out another archer while you are slogging through her territory. Figure on at least three archers there if you start building for the rush ASAP.

    I'm actually interested to hear how the best warmongers here suggest you go about it. I'd probably still go warrior with the second build but then barracks third while my city grows to size three. After improving the wheat and one corn, I'm mining a hill for the chop while I build the second worker. The overflow goes into the barracks and then the workers go ahead and mine hills and improve the other corn and cows. Once I can build Holkans, I'm probably switching the citizen assignments to as many hammers as possible fed by a couple of the big food tiles.

    I'd research the wheel after AH and set up my workers to build a road south towards Moscow. I may or may not chop or whip out a couple extra units, but it seems like I probably would.

    I guess I'd give the Holkans CR promotions. If she's got unpromoted archers there, and they have a 40% culture, you're looking at your CR Holkan at 4.8 versus archers at 5.7 (3 + 40% culture + 50% city defense, right?) which is not so sexy. Probably gonna need 7 or 8 of them if you're lucky.
     
  15. Silu

    Silu Deity

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    ^ Agree with michmbk.

    If Cathy doesn't have copper in first 2 cities then a Holkan rush is definitely viable. Even if she has, it can be done if you focus on speed + pillaging the Copper. Moscow appears to be on flatland.
     
  16. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    I thought the suspense will be fun :mischief: What about the rest of you guys? I could quite easily play out another turn and post an update within a few minutes.

    Well, thank you anyway. I will be posting around the same time, daily.

    If we dont have copper, luck i am going to need, so what do you think our chances are with a Holkan rush?

    I agree.

    I think capital on hill is unlikely (wishful thinking ;)), if we are talking 3 archers, that would probably take around 10 holkans would'nt it? would 7 be enough?

    With everyone talking about luck --- i sure hope i have a lot of it :(
     
  17. TheLazyHase

    TheLazyHase King

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    Seven will be luck-based I guess. 10 or 12 will be slower, but you will most likely have some spare halkabn for another city or barb defense..

    Still, I hope you will have copper. Holkan have one big problem they are eated by barb's axe, and you may very well have a lot of barb once you've finished with catherine.
     
  18. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    Guys i'm uncertain if i would be able to pla a round tomorrow as something came up, so i played one more turn for everyones benefit ....

    AND ....................... nope, nada, no copper :cry:

    So let me know what our plans should be.

    Will definitely post the next round by Thursday.
     
  19. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    @Abrweit
    I wrote from work and was pretty busy, later, as you saw i posted more detailed sequence.
    But defenitely you should stop telling people that they are stupid and uncoherent.
    No explanations, warrior/holkan meant whatever best military unit aviable.

    Sorry anyone if my posts had something offencive or uncoherent, all i meant is to propose way which i sure is best . It working and it was optimal. (2 workers, BW before AH)

    Good that OP started with BW, i dont sure how things going i will check save at home, but also i am sure thet option i proposed was viable, and far not stupid, as someone mentioned.

    For Holkans - they are viable option, i been rushing survayaman on emperor level sucessfully. (epic speed though). Just bring supperior numbers, acheive them by chopping 2 cities forests (what left from them), b/c this rush is vital for further development. The good side here is that they are p.cheap. I'd say 12+ holkans with CR.
    Also its good to prioritize Iron working somewhere when possible (may be even right after pottery researched)
     
  20. TheLazyHase

    TheLazyHase King

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    Scouting Cathy to see if she had copper. If she had copper and not you, holkan rush will be russian roulette, and consequently chopping 6-7 holkan and going ASAP would be the best thing to do, at least in my opinion.
     

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