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HUI Game #1 - Pacal II

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Shafi, Oct 5, 2009.

  1. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    sorry i could not post the next round as promised. But i have played it out, and will update tomorrow.
     
  2. mcneebs

    mcneebs Chieftain

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    looking forward to it shafi, I've been lurking in the shadows following this game. One quick off topic question. How are you making those sexy dot maps?
     
  3. CarlH

    CarlH Warlord

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    Bug mod allows you to do this
     
  4. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    I'm looking forward to it. I played around from my growth save to test whether or not a holkan rush started a bit late was viable. I won't give anything away, but I will say I'm anxious to see what your approach was, and what the result was.
     
  5. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    Yes. You use Alt + X for dot mapping and, then Ctrl + X to toggle the map with or without the dot maps. Soething i picked up on the forum :D
     
  6. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    Well Here's the next round and i seem to have given it away in the title, but hey i do want to brag about it :D
    Our worker improves the 2nc corn tile and chops some forest to speed up the production of the Holkans, before moving on to the Cow tile.
    Horse city is founded, and the first build is a worker, since the capital is going to be busy with building an army of Holkans.

    Spoiler :


    Have a look at the terrain to the west of Horse city …

    Spoiler :


    Our capital continues to build Holkan after Holkan assisted by Chops and whips, our worker takes the time to improve the cow tile in between all of this and we keep interchanging the tiles that our citizens are working to keep our city from becoming unhappy.

    Our warrior to the west of Horse city is attacked by two lions and survives and we promote him to Woodsman I.

    Spoiler :


    We complete research of the wheel and begin on Pottery.

    Spoiler :


    We find Shaka’s borders, He is preety to close to Horseville and we will need to take him out after Cathy. Well let’s get through our fast victim, before we get to that.

    Spoiler :


    We complete research of Pottery and begin on writing. We are notified that Shaka founded Judaism. Our warrior to the west pops a hut for some gold. Well that will be useful to keep our research going until we get some cottages going and plunder from cathy’s cities start boosting our coffers.

    Spoiler :


    Horseville completes building a worker and starts building a monument. The worker is sent to chop a forest to rush the monument.

    Spoiler :


    Cathy Settles the ivory site …

    Spoiler :


    Well, that’s one less settler we need. :lol:
    We complete researching writing and begin on IW. Horseville completes the monument and begins work on a granary.
    Our army of 10 Holkans is ready and the capital takes the opportunity to build a granary and then a worker. Horseville completes the granary and begins work on a library.
    As our brave army prepares for invasion we receive word that Cathy has completed the GW, well that’s a nice wonder we would like to have … :mischief:

    Spoiler :


    We declare war and enter her borders capturing her worker and killing a chariot in the process.

    Spoiler :


    That is what she has for defense. Well this should go smoothly enough … ;)

    Spoiler :


    We lose the first two Holkans as expected but then take the city with ease. The ivory city is ours and another worker is captured in the process. We assign the two captured workers with the task of connecting Ivory city to Horseville and our capital. Our troops will regroup and heal here and then launch the assault on Moscow.
    Our capital finishes work on the worker it was building and begins on another Holkan.

    Our forces stationed in the Ivory city have regrouped and we enter the borders of Moscow for the decisive battle.

    Spoiler :


    We close in for the final assault,

    Spoiler :


    2 Archers & 3 chariots, that should be comfortable, our morale is high! :D
    Meanwhile, library is whipped in Horseville and work starts on a barracks. Our capital is linked to both the ivory & horse cities and we have acsess to both resources.
    Our forces launch the attack on Moscow and the casualties are high, we barely manae to take the city, had some unlucky dice rolls there

    Spoiler :


    We need some time to regroup and don’t want to lose Moscow after the price we paid for it, so we negotiate a ceasfire agreement

    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :


    Meanwhile we complete research of IW and begin on HBR.
    Our cities currently look like this,

    Capital
    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :


    Horseville & Ivory City
    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :


    Well I guess one lesson I learnt was that, with the opponent this close, had I just commited to a Holkan rush fully from the get go it should have been a cakewalk, specially against someone like Cathy who I think has a modest unit build probability.
    On the positive side of things, we pulled it off, and got our selves the ivory city + GW for free !!!

    Well what should be our plan from here on now?

    I will be shortly taking out cathy and we can then look to expand south I guess, what about Shaka? As long as he’s around I am uneasy.

    Save game attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Ignorant Teacher

    Ignorant Teacher Emperor

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    Shafi, send a settler to the double gem site ASAP with a couple of workers.
     
  8. CarlH

    CarlH Warlord

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    Well done, Good thing she hadnt hooked up the copper yet, axemen could have made that very difficult.

    Whilst it is not a great sight, you could place it inbetween the mountains and put a truckload of defenders in it. It could block Shaka nicely, and claim the gems.
     
  9. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    Hmmm ... i should be able to get a settler out pretty quickly with all the food i have. Thanks for the tip this is priority 'numero uno' for the next round, i seem to have forgotten abou those gems in the heat of the battle.That should provide a quick shot in the arm for our research.

    Yeah :D, but the plan was that i would go in, "run for the hills" if we saw axes and pray that we dont get slaughtered before we got the horses online. The thing is that i initially backed out of Holkan rush mode when i saw the copper right next to her borders assuming she would be hooking it up shortly, also i think the fact that i have never pulled off a rush with spear based units + many peoples thoughts that it would be a gamble sought of got me to chicken out. In hindsight if i had gone for it then, it probably would have been a cakewalk.
    Slvynn was right that her having horses was a big positive, cos if she had built archers instead of chariots we would have had a problem.

    BTW people, it's my sons 2nd b'day today so i doubt i'm going to be playing today, the next round would probably be posted in around 36 hours from now.
     
  10. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    I think you need to sign OB with Shaka and Nappy. And send some unit to gather intelligence and make maps of their land. Results of scouting will have impact on future plans. Focus espionage on shaka, cince you have great wall spy siege (revolts) will be big gain using HA only strike force. Meanwhile they will spread religion for free into your cities, and this is other gain for you, anyways you going to capture HC bit later ;) Later, Bulbing of matematics with GS later will also help. If possible try to pop that GSpy before (or after going through CoL) GS from wall, it will be very usefull.

    For short term i think you need to make few workers more and 1 gem settler , and work well all unwored tiles (including heavy cottage spam) .
     
  11. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Wait so the second city contributed 0 holkans and you marched to moscow with an initial force of 8 holkans? You're really really lucky that catherine went settlers, that she decided to build the great wall and not one extra archer.

    And if you entered cathy's borders from the northwest, you could have avoided attacking across a river.

    I would be wary of taking the double gems city since it's so close to Shaka, so a sneak attack while you send forces to finish off Catherine will be your doom, especially if you have no metal to fend off an axe rush. You also have a lot of land to fill.

    There's no need to make a library in your second city since it should be a production city. There's barely anything to cottage and you won't have surplus food for specialists.
     
  12. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    I think that chariots is pretty good axe counter in early sneak attack case, and later cats and jumbos solving alot of problesm. Anyways he going to mass HA army very soon, to make take 2 on Cathy and continuing it into assault on Shaka. He just have small break to imrpove economy and settle bit more and work bit more tiles before he iwll start to spam HAs.

    As, Me and Shafi mentioned > she having horse and no copper in culture borders was critical (and very major difference) that ensured Shafi's success with such a small stack.) However i'll never attack through river in such cases.
     
  13. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    I did not attack across the river guys, i attacked from the tile to the west of Moscow. In fact if i had a little more luck, i should have taken Moscow more easily than this, however yes, in this case though one more archer and it would have been an epic failiure, like i said before i delayed the rush too much, so it was not ideal.

    Note - I actually had to play out the last part of this round a 2nd time cos the game suddenly died on me, probably something to do with my PC, the first time i had lot of luck with the dice rolls and i took the ivory city losing only one Holkan and Moscow losing only one holkan and if the stupid game did'nt die on me i could have finished cathy off. (I had 6 Holkans good to go)
     
  14. Shafi

    Shafi King

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    True. If he gets swords before we hook up some copper we could be in trouble. However i am going to try to finish cathy off real quick and maybe look at Dow'ing Shaka sooner rather than later ....

    The library was unnecessary, i panicked at that point cos i my research was bottoming out.
     
  15. dr_s

    dr_s Prince

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    I agree with vicawoo, the point of settling a second city was to produce more units for your rush. All that infrastructure could wait for later. I would have built a worker in the capital rather than your second city, then chopped out some Holkans in the second city to contribute to the rush.

    You should settle the iron site next, I think, so you can produce axes and swords. It's also close to your capital, so lower maintenance.

    I don't see the point of teching HBR. I would tech toward currency or monarchy, or maybe grab alphabet for trading purposes. Teching toward currency would also allow you to get construction.
     
  16. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    Shafi, re: your point about an earlier rush being a cakewalk - I’m glad you brought this up because, as it happens, I tried the early rush for comparison after reading your post - and it was every bit as challenging as your later one. The reason BTW that I mention this is not to sound harsh at all, but, in the spirit of helping us all to learn, I think two factors contributed significantly to the ease of your rush, creating the (mistaken) illusion that rushing earlier would’ve been even easier:

    (i) Cathy’s truly bizarre decision to build the Great Wall. Not only did she not use those hammers to build units with which to defend her cities, but it also appears to have heavily influenced her tech path. I say this BTW because I note in your screenie with your stack across the river from Moscow that she has two archers and three chariots defending the city. Given your success in taking the city, am I right to presume that she did not therefore whip an extra defender whilst you crossed the river? For the record, do you know if she had bronze working when you attacked? Either way, I agree with your conclusion in a later post that you were likely just one (whipped) archer away from failing to take Moscow – but well done for doing so!

    (ii) Cathy’s use of horses to defend Moscow with – the very unit holkans will eat for breakfast. (Kudos do indeed go to Slvynn on this one! :goodjob:)

    In the name of science :lol: I therefore conducted an experiment, playing from your starting position at 4000 BC and, after settling a city where Novgorod sits in your game, built and chopped holkans like there was no tomorrow to rush Cathy. To cut a long story short, much chopping and whipping saw me invading at 1160 BC with a stack of 12 barracks built holkans. Because Cathy hadn’t build the Great Wall however, she had settled two new cities, garrisoned them with archers (I saw only one chariot by contrast with you) and she was happily whipping in new units once I declared war (hence my question re: whether she teched bronze working in your game). It wasn’t pretty (even though I got a couple of favourable RNGs to boot) but, as in your game, two cities fell with one to go.

    One last thing...any reason why you’re not whipping either the monument or a granary in Novgorod? Looking forward to seeing you finish Cathy.:D
     
  17. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    Wow - congrats on pulling it off! You really caught a break that Cathy had built the GW and chariots. I actually didn't think you'd pull it off based on the test I had run. In my test, I had brought 16 holkans to the party, starting the war at turn 73 (pretty darn late). I managed to take three of her 4 cities, but lost 12 of the holkans in the process. I was against 6 archers in total and a couple chariots - pretty much losing 2 holkans for each archer.

    So I really expected you to bring less holkans and therefore not be able to sustain the rush. Looks like Cathy helped you bring about her demise. You should be in a winning position now - plenty of land once you finish off Cathy. Even with the loons on this map, none of them so far are strong enough techers to keep up with EXP/FIN. No need to war with anyone else for awhile - appears you have plenty of land to develop into 12-15 cities.

    One learning point going forward - except for your initial worker built by your capital when it's size 1, you typically won't want to build a worker in any city at size 1...all subsequent cities need to grow. You can build monuments/granaries/units out of the size 1 cities - let your bigger, more established cities build the workers. Faster and allows the size 1 cities to catch up in growth.
     
  18. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    Just tuned into this game - enjoying so far and the discussions are quite lively.

    My few thoughts:

    I know it's "one less settler" but I wonder if you might have given though to razing Novgorod. I think the city would have been better placed 1N anyway, and it would have meant that you did not need to leave any units behind to guard the city or have the maintenance right then. A settler could have grabbed the spot later with ease.

    I'd explore more of the map and get a better feel for Shaka before assuming that you are going to take him out immediately. First, I'd be wary about forcing the two-gem site city right away. I know that those gems look very nice, but it gives you possible border tension with Shaka right away and you seem to have him blocked nicely to the north anyway with your horse city and the mountains. If you open borders with Shaka, you might get Judaism, which would help relations, and given that Nappy founded Buddhism and is likely close to Shaka, it might be nice to see if you can get those two to go at each other while you settle cities. Looks like you have some nice room to the south anyway.

    Also keep in mind that Shaka's UU could give some trouble to even your HA's, and you have iron and copper to settle soon and an economy that needs some recovery. I like the idea of going to currency and later to construction before even HBR (also allows for your UB, correct?). I'd rather have some axes up to defend against a possible Shaka attack, and catapults will probably be a necessity soon. If you could then trade for HBR, it allows for elephants and catapults which are always nice.

    Again, need to explore more and see what's out there. I'd like to find some better trading partners than you have right now.
     
  19. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Let's talk rushing tactics. Did you go 2 city if you rush that late? My rush attempt was triple worker one city, I might have had 9 holkans (3 per archer), although 2 workers might have been sufficient (not sure though, around 9 tiles to road, with flood plains it was at least 24 worker turns, or up to 6 forests). I also wasted time improving the 3rd corn, which was clearly unnecessary by that point.
     
  20. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Testing it, Turn 58, 8 Holkans, more streaming in, should have been 9 but I mis-timed sending a Holkan north. 4 archers for defense, 1 build last second. I think 3 workers was necessary. I grew to 4 before second worker, but maybe grow to 3 would have been better. I could have skipped 2 turns on a road, so I think I could have done it one turn faster or so
     

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