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HUI Game #2 - Boudica

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Shafi, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    @hexem3117: what Dirtyparrot said...

    if you have three forests like this -ABC-, you want to chop B first because it would have twice the regrowth chance A and C have. same with

    A
    B
    C

    Hope it makes sense :)

    @Shafi: Thebes is size 6? (iirc two corns/two banana)... grow your cities! :)
    edit: congrats on your son Shafi... missed it at first :)
     
  2. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Fortified spear in walled city vs shock horse archer: 6.6 vs 4*(1+1+0.5)=6.6 vs 10
    Fortified axe in walled city vs gallic warrior: 6.6 vs 5*(1+1-0.1)=6.6 vs 9.5
    The withdrawal sounds great in theory, but I think the problem is after the flanking you want cleanup units. You can have 2 move combat shock or combat 2 horse archers, but you won't have 2 move cr2 or even combat 3 gallics. And spears are less common than axes.
    Gallics are never as effective as I hoped they would be.

    The problem with any attacking oriented great general is that if you use it too much, it'll eventually get in an unlucky battle and die. So then you use it in less important battles, in which case you've made it useless.
    Let me see, if you use your 80% withdrawal gallic on 5 difficult battles, you're saving 2.5 g3 gallics. Maybe with some promotions, 3+ guerilla 2 gallic warriors. Is that worth more than one city building 5 exp gallics out of the gate or a 5 to 6 promotion attacker? (cr3, combat 3 to 4).
    It might be ok if you're using it on 4 3 exp gallics or 7 5 exp gallics to get one super withdrawer and 3 to 6 3 promotion gallics.

    Edit: withdraw is guerilla 3, drrr.
     
  3. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

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    My heartiest congratulations Shafi :)...and welcome to the world little Shafi! :beer:

    Yeah, kids will do that though. :lol::lol::lol:

    huerfanista: in my case, you’re now preaching to the converted re: the strength of GWs...I have to say, many thanks for pointing out their uses...I shall certainly look upon them differently in my future games. They – and G3 muskets – which Shafi could still yet use in this game, really are little gems as you pointed out earlier.

    As it happens, I was thinking about what all this means for Shafi’s tech (and build) path after I posted yesterday. To that end, I think your posts have highlighted a mistake in my earlier long winded post when I mentioned this:

    In retrospect, there is of course also a third avenue open to Shafi, by seeking a promotional edge, in the form of the G3 GWs – which I thank you for making me realise. :goodjob:

    That said, I still believe that the need for more commerce and happiness means calendar is the next tech Shafi should pursue. (After all, having troops in enemy borders is only going to accentuate Shafi’s economic malaise IMHO.) Thereafter, I think your terrific pic illustrating multiple points of attack into Shaka’s lands actually cements the case for literature and the HE IMHO. You see, whilst I completely agree with you (and it has been my experience too) that attacking using multiple stacks provokes a very different AI response compared to a single SoD, my concern at the mo’ is that Shafi lacks the military numbers to mount such simultaneous strikes. Correcting this in the short term via all city military spam (which is what Shaka more or less looks to be doing) is, moreover, complicated IMHO by the need (i) for core infrastructure in some of Shafi’s cities to boost the economy and (ii) to backfill some land. As mentioned before, perhaps this is precisely where my peacenik tendencies surface :lol:...your plan would obviously involve getting the cash from an offensive war - which teching calendar and building the HE only delays.

    That said, post literature, I think you’ve definitely given the tech and build path some serious food for thought – even a peacenik builder like me can see that. :lol: After all, dependent on the timing of the HE and how long it takes to research / extort / steal feudalism, it’s entirely possible that Shafi could be in a position to spam G3 GWs (with the MI in Vienne) once the HE is built. The other option at that point is of course to go what might be considered the more traditional route and adopt vassalage and spam 7XP (with the MI) siege in Vienne, (ie. just one successful battle shy of CR3 capability given Boudica’s charisma), 5XP siege / units elsewhere.

    If building primarily G3 GWs, the case for feudalism then rests IMHO on just how many cities will be producing them. If just the HE equipped Vienne is to spam them, its MI means there is no need for vassalage or feudalism to obtain G3 GWs. In this case, machinery > engineering or civil service after literature looks to be the tech path IMHO. If however, the plan is for more cities to build GWs after righting the economy, then feudalism needs to be researched (after literature) – or better yet extorted or stolen - to adopt vassalage so the other cities with a barracks can produce 5XP unit and get G3 (with G1 automatically given). (In a similar vein, going the more traditional route via siege also lends itself toward grabbing feudalism after literature for vassalage as was noted.) In either case, I think Shafi then needs to look toward machinery > engineering and / or civil service, depending on the relative sizes and composition of each civ’s army.

    Re: attacking Ndondakusuka. This is something that both you and dualmaster have mentioned and is very likely a great example of how gamers like me can learn for the more experienced civvers such as yourselves. Whilst even I :lol: can see the merits of taking this city, I’m perplexed by three things: (a) With Shaka currently sending more troops and siege to reinforce the city and spamming yet still more troops, what kind of ratio of attackers (G3 GWs) to defenders do you think Shafi will need to take and hold the city (assuming a spy lowers its defences)? (b) Out of curio, are you really saying that it’ll be best for Shafi to concentrate on building troops now (the scale of building dependent on the ratio of attackers to defenders needed to take and hold the city) rather than say, whip courthouses / markets etc to rectify the economy first? (c) The plan assumes that Shaka then expends an awful lot of troops to re-take the city. Whilst I completely agree that this is likely, my question is: what happens if instead, Shaka elects to attack another city – wouldn’t that simply mean Shafi having to produce yet more troops to reinforce elsewhere, as opposed to building infrastructure to rebuild the economy? Please rest assured BTW that these questions are in no way criticisms – this is a genuine chance for me (and I’d suggest others following) to learn something about the merits of building and planning for war versus building infrastructure. Your answers could really help cure my builderitis! :)

    As mentioned, many thanks for your insight...you’ve given some advice epitomising the spirit of the HUI series IMHO. :D
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Chieftain

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    The only reason why he has an :espionage: advantage is because Shaka just spent all his EP to destroy a mine. IIrc Shafi only has 400-something to use, that's 1 city :(

    And this is the last I'll say about GWs vs. GW+Catapults:

    GWs could be good for a quick strike to take the outer cities of Shaka's empire (looks at huerfanista's map, pick some of the closer cities that are lightly defended and send them on their way), but at some point peace will be needed to replace them(only 1 city can build the GIII and the others require infrastructure, etc.) and take care of WW which will not be marginal given the size of Shaka's Empire and unitprod.
    I would go for the better :hammers:cost efficient approach which imo will include Catapults at some point. It is, after all close to 1000AD and the economy needs a leg up at some point.
     
  5. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

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    Yeah, I'd maybe have a stack of a few of them to sack a border city (with some horse archers around if Shaka doesn't have Impi's nearby), but for the big inner cities, you're better to send the catapults. Usually my wars take on 2 major stacks - my infantry/artillery stack (in this case, CR GW, axes, spears, catapults), and my mobile stack (late game tanks, mid game cavalry, this game GW/horse archer). Mobile stack speeds around grabbing the lightly defended outside cities while the slow stack makes its way inland. If timing comes right, then my 2 stacks meet up when the catapults are done their job, and I have everyone for the big battle.
     
  6. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

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    @huerfanista - the HA attack works because you mix flanking and combat HA to run circles around the enemy. You can't do that with GW because they all have to go up the guerilla line to get double movement on hills. So there would be no equivalent to the combat promoted HA.
     
  7. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

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    Well, you only need to give them G2. And with Boudica, C1/G2 swords aren't that bad, since they're only 1XP away from another promotion (either C2, CR1, or shock/cover). Don't have the withdraw or hills attack bonus, but are then stronger for taking on cities.
     
  8. learner gamer

    learner gamer Chieftain

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    I think the moral of the story is that GWs, like any other unit, have their place...they can be gems if used at the right time and in the right way. As someone whose game style is very much geared toward siege - and who'd never even thought of G3 GWs before this game (I love CR promos too much :lol:) - the discussion has been very beneficial.

    That said, in an effort to try and help Shafi decide on the right mix of siege and / or GWs, would someone like to take a stab at answering my earlier questions, reproduced below? I think we'd all be very interested to get a guide on question (a) in particular: what ratio of GWs to defenders would Shafi need to take Ndondakusuka - and how would this ratio change if the stack were instead composed of siege (leaving foot solders just to clean up)?

    NB: I understand BTW that the estimate will be a VERY rough guide but it could be very informative, not only to me but, more importantly, Shafi's game. :)

     
  9. huerfanista

    huerfanista Chieftain

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    FYI, I decided to play from his last save just for fun. I'd love to tell you how easy it was ;) but I'm afraid it would be too much of a spoiler. But if you're curious:

    Spoiler :

    I let all builds that were queued up complete, and then built nothing but GWs thereafter. Because Shafi had some cats queued up, I inadvertantly built 2 more of them (I believe he had one built at the start of the save). :lol: 1 turn after the treaty expired, I felt that I had enough troops. I had about a dozen GWs, the 3 cats, 2 HAs, and a chariot super medic in my stack. The GWs were about 60-40 G3-G2. I moved them into the jungle tile SE of the city. The next turn, Shaka suicides 3/4 of his stack against them, killing none and promoting all the G2s to G3s. :lol: Thanks for saving me the trouble, dude! I let them heal up for a couple of turns and took the city with 1 loss. Meanwhile, fresh GWs were streaming into the area, so I sent them after the city to the east, which they captured with a couple of losses. In the next 10-12 turns I took 3 more cities from Shaka, all to the NW, using GW-only stacks blitzing along the hilltops, and then took peace. I probably lost around 6 GWs. BTW, I set research to feudalism> calendar> CS (which was dumb, since I wanted to stay in vassalage :wallbash: )> machinery.

    EDIT: I also built 1 spy, which I used to revolt thelast city that I took.

    EDIT2: To answer questions 2 and 3:
    2.) Yes, that's what I'm saying. Shafi already has courts in the important (more distant) cities, and the economy is frankly not that bad if you can research at 50% slider with only a small loss.

    3). Look at the map. There's only 1 city that's vulnerable to a counterattack and that's the one that I launched my attack from, just SE of Ndondakusuka (sorry, don't remember the name). It has walls, 2 archers and 2 axes, and is the waypoint for all of my newly built GWs. I was completely unconcerned about any counterattack there. And BTW, I never saw one. :lol:
     
  10. huerfanista

    huerfanista Chieftain

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    FYI, Boudica's GWs come with Combat1, in addition to the innate 10% sword city attack bonus. IMO, you're missing the point about the strength of the guerilla promotions. They give both speed and strength (+25% hill attack, double hill movement, +50% hill defense, +50% withdrawal chance). They not only do what HAs do, they do it better. :)
     
  11. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Against units with 150% defense bonus, 25% hill attack is about as effective as another level of combat.

    The most effective use of gallic warriors I ever saw was as defenders. I was playing as Mongolia and wiping out of everyone with keshiks, until I ran into guerrilla 2 gallics on a hill city. They're like longbows.
     
  12. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

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    I see your point. I'll have to give it a try sometime.
     
  13. Ignorant Teacher

    Ignorant Teacher Chieftain

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    When not isolated with him (sorry troy), you need to get him to pleased to be able to trade techs.
    There's no diplomacy when Shaka's arounnd. (Unless someone like Sitting Bull or Liz is too).

    If you don't build a ton of siege, get some spies to start revolts in the cities.
     
  14. hexem3117

    hexem3117 Chieftain

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    @ RRRashkolnikov ty that clears it up a bit...

    Shafi let's get an update on your game situation!
     
  15. Shafi

    Shafi Chieftain

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    I will probably play the next round tomorrow hopefully - maybe have an update by Monday.
     
  16. Shafi

    Shafi Chieftain

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    Hey guys,

    Sorry about the long delay :blush:. First it was RL and then i started playing a few Emperor games and really got hooked, i have just finished my first win on Emperor too, so i was kind of a little lazy to get back to this game on Monarch.

    I will definitely finish this off over the next couple of weeks but i will take the liberty to start HUI 3 on Emperor today as i feel that i want to be playing more on that level.

    Cheers
    Shafi.
     

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