HUI Game #2 - Boudica

[Shafi]

So as discussed, the plan is clear as soon as we complete researching the wheel, we hook up the horses build chariots and rush the Egyptians first, followed by HC. This should basically put us in a winning position with pretty much any victory type available from there.
We complete researching the wheel and begin on Writing. Barrack is built in the capital and we begin amassing our army of chariots with help of some chopping, not a tree is spared in our war efforts, soon our insolent neighbors will learn of the might of the Celtic people!!!

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Well it seems Rammy has built a 2nd city and the Henge for us …

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Some free XP for our chariot army …

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Our people have discovered the secrets of Writing and we now task our tribal elders with studying the secrets of Agriculture. We also sign open borders with our Egyptian neighbors and scout their land.

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We complete researching Agriculture and begin on Pottery. Meanwhile our army is almost ready, we have eight chariots and send them close to the Egyptian borders. Here’s where I made the first silly mistake in this round, I declared on Rammy from the southern end of his borders ,

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This meant it took me 3 turns to trudge through all that forest and get to the east of his capital (as I did not want to attack across the river), which resulted in him whipping a couple of archers, we ended up losing four chariots in the process of taking the city, I should have entered from the eastern border which would have been one less turn to reach the Egyptian capital and probably would have resulted in one less archer, anyways it did not cost us much.

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Meanwhile …

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HC has settled the copper location we need to get this war over quickly and head over there quickly. Our army is instructed accordingly and they make short work of the remaining Egyptian city, which is one tile away from our dot mapped location but we decide to keep it anyway.

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We finish researching Pottery and begin on Math. We DoW HC in 1225 BC and immediately pillage the copper with the chariot we had placed next to it for the exact purpose, meanwhile our army marches on Cuzco the Incan capital and Buddhist holy city …

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Once again our army of eight chariots faced only three archers and made short work of them. Meanwhile we finish researching Mathematics and begin on Currency.

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Another Incan city falls and is auto razed. We are down to the final city, the copper city which is going to be a tough nut to crack as it is on a hill. This is where I made the most stupidest decision , I had eight chariots and tried to take on 3 archers on a hill, with extremely low odds, I should have waited for maybe at least 10, but I was on a roll, in a hurry to finish off HC and acting plain stupid, I attacked lost about 5 chariots and realized I was’nt going to take the city, so I just choked the city and waited for reinforcements after which we finally took the city, after a bit of thought I decided to keep the city but I was not really convinced, was it the right choice?

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I believe we may have lost 10 – 15 turns due to the stupid call, anyways got to live with it, so due to the easy starting situation we find ourselves in control even after such a silly mistake. During all of this we also located Shaka’s borders.

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We complete researching Currency and begin on CoL, we also raze a barb city for some cash,

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That brings us to the end of a successful but poorly played round in my opinion, anyways things good look good from here on, I’m considering conquest, since it’s only 380 BC and we’ve already taken out two opponents also since the first game of the series was a space win, we could do something different, so what should be our strategy from here for conquest? Do we start backfilling all the land available now? Also would appreciate some suggestions on potential future city locations.

Here’s the world as we know it,

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[learner gamer]

Very well played Shafi...2 neighbours down, a few more to go . And don’t worry, we all make mistakes (especially me! ). The key is that you learn from them, which you're doing.

Re: Tiwanaku. Perhaps it might have been worthwhile razing and re-settling 1E to work the furs but (i) that would require producing another settler (ii) the city’s already paying for itself and (iii) you can simply settle another city to get the furs and cow, so no harm done IMHO. More important is that the workers there improve the deer IMHO.

Re: Thebes. The city is currently building wealth but has chopped trees worth 88H. I presume you’ll be switching production back to a market to bag those? (Maybe you’ll want to adjust the slider down a little for one turn if you do this.) Is it also worth working the corn instead of the bananas so you can subsequently crack the whip and regrow?

Re: Memphis. You can make an argument for 1SE for the rice but riverside as you now have it = levee.

Re: cities. My early take is that it depends on three things, one of which is how you want to specialise your existing set. (The other two things BTW are (i) what your exploring warrior can reveal about the fog NW of Memphis and (ii) whether you want to take a real gamble and use the rest of your army to try taking the barbarian city of Hsung-Nu, maybe re-settling it further S to alleviate Shaka's cutltural pressure, and still net some dyes, perhaps bananas, rice and who knows what else is in the fog.) As far as city specialisation goes, IMHO, you have:
Memphis = commerce
Thebes = GP farm or commerce
Bibracte, Cuzco = commerce
(Although I note that the last three cities also have some decent production too.)

IMHO, this is all relevant to whether you next settle 2E or 3E of the rice (located 1S of where your chariots are bunched.) Going 2E gives you gold, rice, copper and 4 other hills for good production. Whilst going 3E gives up the rice, it keeps the other resources, and the FPs mean you can work the extra 2 hills (NB you'll get three but lose one settling on it) that you would get, meaning this city could work 6 hills, gold and copper. In short, that city would be a major military pump...handy, since you’re thinking of conquest / domination and have marble for the HE no? All you'd need then would be a 20XP unit.

Just for completion, I’ve posted a preliminary dotmap in the attached file...although obviously, some sites may change depending on what’s in the remaining fog (and of, course my dotmapping could just suck. ) Hope this helps.

 

[kossin]

Keeping Tiwanaku is a so-so move. It gave you access to quick copper but the city will always be marginal and far from your Capital. Razing it and resettling it 1E would have given you an extra resource but cost another settler. As it is, your game is pretty much in the bag, you just have to keep Shaka in check.
I would have kept Ainu OTOH, it was in a pretty good spot with gold, cows and several fp's.

Send a few workers to finish the road to Shaka's city for some better trade routes. On the same line of thought, you might want to send a workboat scouting in case there are some islands that can connect you to another civilization.

You may want to do a quick detour to Monotheism (or just Polytheism)+Priesthood to spread your religion and build temples.
Fill in your food spots, make a Bureaucracy capital (Thebes perhaps?). You can get about 10 more cities peacefully if you'd like, but some will never be great (that peninsula has a lot of desert, so chain irrigation will greatly help).

Things to fix:
Bibracte has a riverside grassland you could farm instead of a non-riverside one. In any case, start running 2 scientists here.
Thebes is working a non-riverside grassland while there is a riverside one unused.
Tiwanaku's workers should improve the Deer rather than be chopping. Food first usually.

Don't build your settlers from Cuzco, let it grow. Thebes/Bibracte will be better pumps.
You need a source of soon. CoL won't do it since you've already got a religion. Monarchy/Calendar should solve that.

Basically, just Academic stuff that every empire needs.

Edit: learner gamer's dotmap looks fine, although you could move some cities around just a little bit if you fancy it - most of them are in the obvious spot nowadays. Just settle the spots with food resources first and once you have CS (and especially Biology) you can settle the others.

 

[learner gamer]

I would have kept Tiwanaku OTOH, it was in a pretty good spot with gold, cows and several fp's.

I presume you mean Memphis (although I don't see gold there?), whuch I agree was worth keeping (and could yet be the Oxford site)...I mentioned the rice in case someone else spots it. BTW, given the whip weariness Memphis is about to run into, I'd favour this as the settler pump to avoid unhappy citizens. Maybe the worker 2E of there could chop a few trees to accelerate settler production?

BTW kossin, you've made some great points. I've two further QQ's for you...it'll be good for me to learn from someone who's just shown in your DR#1 that you can comfortably play at immortal :

a) Given (i) Shafi's need for happiness (ii) Shaka has no religion (iii) spreading Buddhism seems a great idea given that Stonehenge will generate a GP, is it worthwhile actually adopting Buddhism at this point...after all, Shafi could convert out later if needed for diplo.

b) Both calendar and monarchy will take 16 turns at current (less their pre-req discounts). NB: I'm aware of the GPT situation in making this point. Which way would you go: (i) monarchy, given that it solves the happy situation permanently and offers monasteries en route, or (ii) calendar to work the spices, and open up access to fish for the fish / rice site W of Memphis to seal off the land?. I'd personally favour monarchy but, you know what they say about plans and contact with the enemy.

 

[kossin]

Meant Ainu, the barb city, thanks.

a) I see no immediate need to convert to Buddhism as the only 2 cities with it don't need the happiness

b) If Shafi picks up Alphabet somewhere, it is likely he can trade for Monarchy, but Monarch Shaka is going to take forever to get there. Monarchy is one of the techs the AI will trade even if it's a monopoly but Shaka usually won't before before he's Pleased. It will give an instant +1 and soon another from the wine.
OTOH, we have marble so it makes the MoM attractive (as well as TGL+Parthenon combo), the sad part is unless we get the jungle city(ies), there's only 2 Calendar resources and one is badly placed and needs Cathedrals to be better while the other is silk.
So Monarchy would probably be my bet too, unless I see Shaka change civics and buddy him (unlikely).

 

[UWHabs]

Go build a missionary quick and spread Buddhism to Shaka. At least if you get open borders, same religion, and some fair trade, you can try to get him up to pleased.

Otherwise, it's time to crash the economy by expanding out. Keep a decent defensive army on the border with Shaka, but I'd say expand out to your tons of land. Don't worry about falling behind a bit in tech, you'll do fine in the end. Then catch up around Liberalism-ish, and use your land to build.

 

[learner gamer]

@UWHabs: Agree that REx is the way forward, I notice from the save that Shaka currently has more cities than Shafi, and happy resources would be really handy right now...the only alternative is taking out the barb city I mentioned. IMHO, Memphis therefore gets switched to building a settler right now and Thebes does the same after it’s built its market (unless those chopped hammers I mentioned get invested in a settler as well). Yep, Shafi will also want to spread Buddhism to Shaka in time (will also help pay for the REx with Stonehenge set to pop a GP) but, just for completion, kossin’s right, adopting Buddhism is not necessary right now...maybe after teching monarchy to adopt HR and OR? Spot the builder.

Talking of builds, I mentioned earlier about getting hold of a 20XP GG to enable the HE. However, Boudica’s charisma of course lowers the XP needed to get to level 4 to enable the HE by 25% from, I understand, 17XP to 13XP. Now, unless I’m mistaken Shafi, you have a 14XP chariot in Cuzco. IMHO, with a unit spammer like Shaka next door, this means (a) there’s even more value in settling your military pump pronto (see savegame posted earlier) and (b) perhaps after teching to raise the happy cap, a detour to literature (and masonry for the dun) is worthwhile before embarking on your next war?

 

[kossin]

HE needs a level 4 unit, meaning 10 XP or 8 XP for Charismatic leaders. If you meant WP, it needs 27 for non-charismatic and 21 iIrc for Charismatic OTOH, but being so late it won't be a factor

 

[learner gamer]

@kossin, I meant HE...spot the peacenik builder. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[huerfanista]

HE needs a level 4 unit, meaning 10 XP or 8 XP for Charismatic leaders. If you meant WP, it needs 27 for non-charismatic and 21 iIrc for Charismatic OTOH, but being so late it won't be a factor

20XP for Charismatic. (2 - 4 - 8 - 13 - 20 - 28) to get level 6. Except for melee, which starts at L1, so 13XP.

 

[Shafi]

This has been probably the most exciting round I have played in the HUI series so far, starting off things seemed really dull and that’s why I took so long to play this round, but with Shaka next door … it did’nt stay that way for long.
We made some micro changes as suggested, we finished CoL and it turns out were the first to do so, so we have a second holy city now

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We research Meditation and Priesthood next for the temples and to spread our religions. We take the barb city of Hsung – Nu and keep it, razing it would mean Shaka would claim this land.

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We complete researching Priesthood and begin on Monarchy next. We finish Monarchy and adopt HR immediately. We begin researching IW next. A Great Prophet is born in Memphis and we use him for the Buddhist Shrine in Cuzco.

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By the way – this moron is really annoying, I wish I had a more co-operative neighbor …

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We complete researching IW and research Fishing and then Metal casting next. We convert to Confucianism for diplomacy reasons. Sailing is next after MC, for the trade routes + also we are looking to settle some of the coastal locations.
Shaka is at annoyed and his power rating is almost double ours – I am both worried and confused, sharing the religion does not seem to have had an impact …. Ooops it he seems to have changed religions to Budhism , time for us to follow suite. It’s almost as if the fool wants war …
We research Masonary after sailing and then Construction.

Surprise, surprise … Shaka DoW’s us. Memphis and Hsung-Nu fall …

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We promptly retake Memphis, but Hsung-Nu unfortunately at the moment is in enemy hands.

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In the meanwhile we finish researching Construction and begin on HBR. We take Shaka’s copper city (NW of Memphis) and keep it (even though it does not look a good site) as I don’t want Shaka resettling the area.

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We finish Researching HBR and then tech Archery followed by Alphabet. During this period we use the terrain to our advantage and get Shaka’s SoD to suicide against 3 of our GII GW’s. now we definitely have the upper hand in this war …

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He still wont talk, so no time to regroup, but we are not in any danger now, our entire empire is focused on military build up, I send out a counter attacking force comprising largely of GII & GIII GW’s. Meanwhile Shaka’s boys are back, this time to have a crack at Thebes …

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But, Thebes is well protected and we soften them up with cats first and them rout the invading army outside the walls of Thebes. Meanwhile I look around with my counter attacking force but I am not too confident of taking any cities without siege so I sue for peace and get Poly + 110 gold for peace. Not bad.

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An interesting round. So any thoughts of peacefully backfilling land I think is now gone, with a nut job on the lose, I think priority number Uno is to eliminate that threat, it was interesting fighting a defensive war for a change, but it’s time to get on the offensive, so my thoughts are that I now build lots of siege and go hit some of the borders cities, my short term objective is to take these three border cities …

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I begin researching machinery, but did’nt give much thought to it, keeping in mind that we will be seeing lots more military action shortly what should be our tech path from here? I guess some priority should go towards getting a caravel out to find the other continents and meet the rest of the world.

 

[kossin]

Catapults built: 3
GScientists: 0 (get some running in Bibracte - you've already got a shrine that needs spreading and then build a Market in Cuzco)

That's why the war went on so long without making any progress. You've got enough units, just make a ton of catapults.

Make a few triremes to handle barb galleys and rebuild your fishing nets. Fishing boat is more important than a granary.

You can try to finish Shaka off or alternatively turtle and backfill your land...
Personally, since economy is in the dumps so I wouldn't go for Shaka right now.

Either way, I wouldn't get Machinery right now it would only give you XBows...

If you can manage a few GS, you could try bulbing down the Astronomy line to meet the other AIs
...you'd need: Calendar,Philosophy,Compass,Machinery, Optics then 2x bulb Astronomy
This skips CS and avoids Liberalism though.

 

[huerfanista]

Good job taking on Shaka. I don't think that you need a ton of seige with GWs. Here's a good example: in a recent offline game I attacked one of Elizabeth's hill cities defended by a C1 xbow, 2 shock axes, 2 combat swords, and a CG archer. My stack consisted of 6 GWs and 3 accuracy cats. I did not suicide the cats, I only used them to reduce the cultural D on the first turn of the attack. All 6 GWs had G3, a couple had CR1 as well. I only lost 1 GW (NOT to the xbow ). G3 GWs are absolutely unbelievable. They'd get a 50% withdrawal chance against modern armor.

EDIT: Remember, a GW costs the same as a cat.

 

[Nares]

He would have been idle after pasturing the pigs right?

Even if he's idle, it's better to get a food resource up sooner than later.

 

[kossin]

Cats damage every other unit in the stack and take down cultural defenses. GWs don't.

 

[Shafi]

Actually the three cats were built just before Shaka declared on me, when he Dow'ed i started building other units to be able to match his numbers, was this the right move? Maybe i could have slipped in a few more cats, my first thoughts were to just defend and ride out the storm - i was not thinking of invading him.

In terms of turtling up, with a nut job like shaka, how feasible is this? would'nt i need a ton of units to keep my borders safe?

Since you brought up Lib, do you think i may still be in with a shot at the lib race? also what next calendar?

I built a Tetrime to protect my fishing boat but the stupid barb galley took out the tetrime and the fishing boat after that, need to fix that.

 

[Shafi]

Catapults built: 3
GScientists: 0 (get some running in Bibracte - you've already got a shrine that needs spreading and then build a Market in Cuzco)

Good point - I think you gave me the same advice at the end of the last round . I actually started the round running two scientists in Bibracte but somehow later assigned them to work tiles ....

 

[hexem3117]

bah you won't Important is to chop, and chop hard. Try to land 2 or three mines before though (I haven't opened the save, but make sure you are not working forested hills but mined hills)... another tip for ancient era chopping: forest spread in line, not through diagonals. So try to chop forests accordingly (so the forest you just chopped has good chance to regrow)...

edit: Soirana

A bit Off-Topic here, sorry. So what exactly does this mean? That it's better to chop in diagonals so you have 4 spots able to regrow? Is there a good enough chance of regrowth to recommend not chopping the other so they can regrow?

BTW Shafi, GJ...What happened to GLH? did it go to someone else? I would've tried to build it, then spammed coastal cities. Cuzco would've been a great choice.

I agree with you that Shaka needs to be taken out. This may crash your economy though...It's up in the air whether taking him out NOW and crashing your economy for a bit would be better than waiting it out till you get some more developed home cities and economy techs. It seems like he's got a pretty good number of cities up there, and it would require a significant SoD that could be hard to come by right now. Not to mention it would probably be a LOONG war and war weariness would become an issue.

Regardless of whether or not it's a good idea to go to war, he WILL DoW on you sometime in the future. Once a warmonger DoWs on you, the residual diplo hits linger for a long time. They kind of become obsessed. So you'll need military regardless.

My opinion? Build up your economy and defenses. Expand. You've got a lot of great land. I'd also try to get Astro, though not before Lib. Shaka looks like he's going to be a pain to trade with, if you can (which seems doubtful now that he's warred with you).

GOOD LUCK!

 

[huerfanista]

Cats damage every other unit in the stack and take down cultural defenses. GWs don't.

Yeah, I know how cats work. Using G3-promoted GWs is somewhat counter-intuitive. You have to try it to see how effective it is. I've been playing Boudica a lot lately, and my experience goes against the grain of conventional Civ wisdom. Those cats that you're so fond of will die in droves inflicting collateral damage. G3 GWs die much less frequently, and become highly promoted very quickly. I usually have lots of G3CR3 gallics, which are effective even against lbows, and they can be upgraded all the way to infantry. On a basis, you actually come out ahead by building less seige and more GWs. And I didn't say to avoid seige altogether, just build a smaller number of accuracy cats and use them solely for taking down cultural D. You don't need a lot of them this early in the game.

 

[huerfanista]

In terms of turtling up, with a nut job like shaka, how feasible is this?

C'mon, you're Boudica! You don't do turtle. Boudica researches by extortion, so don't take Shaka out all at once. Take some cities, take techs for peace, rinse and repeat until you've got everything worthwhile, then kill him. After all, you don't have to worry about negative diplo.