Humankind - Edo Japanese Discussion Thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1283076344448987137?s=19

Emblematic unit: Naginata Samurai
Emblematic Quarter: Tera

Affinity: Aesthete

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Samurai with naginata rather than the katana thats a nice surprise.

 

[j51]

Weird name choice. I'd have gone with the Togukawa. What will they call the later Japanese?

 

[pineappledan]

Maybe "Goisshin Japan" if they are in the Industrial or "Showa Japan" in Contemporary?

 

[Krajzen]

Weird name choice. I'd have gone with the Togukawa. What will they call the later Japanese?

Just Japanese, and same naming scheme with all cultures having one incarnation in the industrial/modern. They chose Edo because it is more often used to describe the great peaceful two century long period, while Tokugawa is more often used to describe the violent post Sengoku decades including massive Imjin War.

Anyway, let me discuss the most stereotypical possible militarist Japan, katana samurai and dojo -
Wait, what?!

Don't get me wrong, though. I love it all. I love Japan being aestethe, shocked I never thought about it myself, just pessimistically assumed they'll get the most boring set possible.

Also, I have always been irritated how the culture which de facto was probably the most peaceful across its history of all major countries, with centuries upon centuries when literally no warfare happens on a serious scale, which had total 50 years of external expansionism among its 1500 years of isolated history... Has always been portrayed as an insanely world conquering.

Japan being aestethe is brilliant, honestly I think it is simultaneously the culture most fitting to this affinity and the affinity most fitting to this culture.

Naginata samurai is an excellent variation from the usual katana obsessions, and shinto temples are also exactly the type of thing that should be spread all over Japanese lands

 

[Gwydden]

Just Japanese, and same naming scheme with all cultures having one incarnation in the industrial/modern. They chose Edo because it is more often used to describe the great peaceful two century long period, while Tokugawa is more often used to describe the violent post Sengoku decades including massive Imjin War.

I've never seen the Imjin War referred to as part of the Tokugawa period. At that point Hideyoshi was still the de facto ruler of Japan; Tokugawa Ieyasu only took over after his death. The period is alternatively called Edo or Tokugawa, just like the Muromachi era is alternatively referred to as Ashikaga after the reignign shogunate.

Nitpicking aside, I'm also pleasantly surprised. The naming is awkward, but perhaps there's no helping it. My guess is we'll get either Meiji Japan in Industrial or, more likely, contemporary Japan, with an imperial emblematic unit and a post-war focus otherwise—sort of how they've done here with a Sengoku EU but an overall Tokugawa design.

 

[notNamed]

They're kinda coasting between Japanese and popular history here.
On one hand, the samurai doesn't storm at people with swords. On the other the unit is missing its side sword, is named Naginata Samurai (as if implying this was something unordinary), doesn't evade mentioning Budshidou (but no Chivalry in European knight unit blurbs) and finally, it's a bit of a relic of the previous era since Edo was all about Samurai as officials or artists, they were oblivious to warfare by this point.
The EQ has a similar issue. It focuses on the Buddhist-Shintou syncretism which is a concern for the Industrial period (very late Edo and Meiji). During our Early Modern Edo, the primary theme of temples was their help in the running of state (Danka system) and their role in widespread literacy of the commoners (Terakoya, which despite the name "temple school" became increasingly unrelated to Buddhist church as time went on), somewhat telling of the relationship between religion and the Edo society at large.

But the weeb in me is still happy. It could have been handled better, but it is definitely on the right road and I'm definitely looking forward to see how the Ming and Joseon get handled as well.
Don't forget it's compulsory to make at least one playthrough of Aztecs into Edo Japanese for an "assured win", also known as "hisshou" in Japanese.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Verrrry interesting.
As others have noted, a focus on the most peaceful episode in Japanese history for a change
- which begs the point, why have a Samurai Unit at all since, as noted, the Samurai in this period were more officials than warriors. I suppose the Samurai title is simply too enmeshed in the international view of Japanese history to be left out.

Focus on Buddhism for the Emblematic Quarter is also interesting, since all but one of the Buddhist 'views' or schools had already been introduced long before this period and their political influence was greatly curtailed in this period of strict government control.
On the other hand, for an 'aesthete' influence, it's hard to beat the simply gorgeous Buddhist/Shinto shrines and temples as architectural beauties.

Finally, a military note: the naginata is a pole weapon: Samurai as Anti-Cav? or, this being Humankind and not Civ, a bonus versus Cavalry? That would make the 'aesthete' Edo-Era Samurai much more militarily significant in the Eras of knights and cuirassiers . . .

This game continues to surprise and delight.

 

[ehecatzin]

Weird name choice. I'd have gone with the Togukawa. What will they call the later Japanese?

I would have prefered just Edo, but I imagine they wanted to be extra clear, it maybe signifies a naming scheme...so for example it might not be so weird to think of Revoutionary France and France as a possibility.

Also...later Japanese, it would depend on how many eras Japan gets to hit. They could comftably go:

-Renaissance- Edo
-Industrial- Meiji
-Modern - Japan

But that would make Japan go 3 cultures in a row I don't think we've seen it yet.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Just Japanese, and same naming scheme with all cultures having one incarnation in the industrial/modern. They chose Edo because it is more often used to describe the great peaceful two century long period, while Tokugawa is more often used to describe the violent post Sengoku decades including massive Imjin War.

Anyway, let me discuss the most stereotypical possible militarist Japan, katana samurai and dojo

Honestly, I would have preferred that more iconic interpretation, but it's still one of the more exciting cultures announced so far. I'm very much looking forward to the Orient cultural line of Zhou -> (any) -> Khmer -> Edo -> Meiji, though obviously the Orient line is going to need a downloadable content culture for the Classical era.

 

[pineappledan]

A samurai with a naginata is still just a samurai.

looking forward to the British culture and their “Musket Redcoats”.

 

[conorbebe]

Just calling them the Edo or the Tokugawa would have been much more elegant, but hopefully this and “Norsemen” gets changed before release.

 

[Siptah]

The specification naginata samurai might be necessary because early modern Japanese infantry will also look like a samurai and this might lead to confusion? Just a guess.

 

[notNamed]

But that would make Japan go 3 cultures in a row I don't think we've seen it yet.

We actually have 4 eras of Greeks in a row. Mycenaeans in Ancient, Greeks in Classical, Byzantines in Medieval and (very likely) Ottomans in Early Modern.
Though I agree doing the same for Japan would be fairly unlikely.

 

[Krajzen]

We actually have 4 eras of Greeks in a row. Mycenaeans in Ancient, Greeks in Classical, Byzantines in Medieval and Ottomans in Early Modern.

I don't know how to express that so you wouldn't feel bad, but I'm pretty sure that is the most globally unpopular view you have right now, on any subject

 

[Krajzen]

Just calling them the Edo or the Tokugawa would have been much more elegant, but hopefully this and “Norsemen” gets changed before release.

Personally I like that naming scheme.
Firstly, it makes attaching the (often exotic) dynasty/period name of a given culture to its modern incarnation, so casual people are not initially confused and even history enthusiasts save that small amount of the brain power needed to associate Edo, Joseon and Ming with appropriate modern people.
Secondly, it REALLY simplifies adding multiple incarnations of some cultures. For example, French are French, you can't conveniently one - word name them after some dynasties in some period, with one - word descriptors you are forced to have one French civ from 10 th century till today. Which is unfair because English could get three) just because of naming transitions English - British - UK.
But with this scheme you can have Capetingian French, Early Modern French, Napoleonic French, Modern French, or whatever two - word combinatons you deem least awkward.

My own people were always just... Polish, no way to circumvent that with some alternate word so you could get two incarnations across ages (though I don't think Poland should get more than one ). But with this naming scheme you can make Piast Polish, Jagiellon Polish, Poland - Lithuania, Modern Polish...

 

[notNamed]

I don't know how to express that so you wouldn't feel bad, but I'm pretty sure that is the most globally unpopular view you have right now, on any subject

Spoiler :

Trust me, Balkanites are pretty touchy on the subject but there are still people out there who are far, far louder when you dare talk about part of history their nation disagrees on with the rest of the world.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't know how to express that so you wouldn't feel bad, but I'm pretty sure that is the most globally unpopular view you have right now, on any subject

Don't really want to be that 23andMe guy, but The Ottoman Turks were no doubt a lot more Turkic in the Early Modern than they are today.

 

[ehecatzin]

We actually have 4 eras of Greeks in a row. Mycenaeans in Ancient, Greeks in Classical, Byzantines in Medieval and (very likely) Ottomans in Early Modern.
Though I agree doing the same for Japan would be fairly unlikely.

Yeah...I wouldn't count the Ottomans either...but you are absolutely right in that Mycenaeans-Greece-Byzantium is a thing. maybe we can expect a rapid succesion Japanese culture tree.

 

[notNamed]

Are you guys implying that Greeks weren't Ottomans?
We're talking about EM Ottomans here, not modern Turkey, nor medieval Seljuk states. A primarily Greco-Turkish state which built the historical foundation of modern Greece, Turkey and a few other states on their periphery.
Why on Earth would it not be considered a part of Greek history?

I mean this is not the time, nor place for this sort of discussion but I highly implore you lot to learn what Ottoman Empire was (a multi-ethnic empire with muslims at the helm, primarily Greek and Turkish muslims).
And no, it wasn't a steppe nomad khanate with yurt cities, tribal rule, nor horse archers surviving on nothing but horse milk products and local game.