Humankind - Franks Discussion Thread

[BuchiTaton]

I find it hard to believe we're going to have 2 eras in a row with no East Asian representative. I think it's more likely that the Holy Roman Empire won't make the cut.

I know they are from Central Asia but in some way could be that devs are counting Mongols and maybe even Huns as East Asia. Personally I found the lack of proper East Asia cultures as a shame.
Tang or Song could be a great scientists culture for Medieval era.

Perhaps, but I'm still expecting to see the Teutons in Medieval era. Maybe Aztecs really got pushed to Early Modern, and the Arabs or Abbasids are in instead of Umayyads?

Unless devs changed their minds Umayyads seems to be kind of confirmed. I guess they want the "Arabs" name to represent contemporary oil rich arab states.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Probably because too many gamers would be asking questions like "Why can't they use magic?"

Or us Older Types asking why they aren't all dressed in black with a chess knight on their holster:
"Have Lance, Will travel"

I know they are from Central Asia but in some way could be that devs are counting Mongols and maybe even Huns as East Asia. Personally I found the lack of proper East Asia cultures as a shame.
Tang or Song could be a great scientists culture for Medieval era.


Unless devs changed their minds Umayyads seems to be kind of confirmed. I guess they want the "Arabs" name to represent contemporary oil rich arab states.

I confess I usually associate the Tang with their use of armored lancers (with or without bows as well) - the "Medieval Equivalent" China and so Expansionist, while Song with the impact of the poetic tradition will always mean 'aesthete' to me. The real problem is that throughout the first 1000 years of the last millenium China was well ahead of Europe scientifically in many fields: metallurgy, chemistry, many aspects of construction, naval architecture - it means 'scientific' is almost a Default Choice for any Chinese Dynasty between the Ch'in and the Song!

I applaud the idea of not lumping all the various Islamic states and factions under Arabs or any other 'generic' title: Eventually, they could have almost a dozen different Factions from Medieval to early Modern Eras among all the Arab, North African, Persian, Turkic, etc. Islamic factions. Bring on the DLCs!

 

[Gwydden]

I applaud the idea of not lumping all the various Islamic states and factions under Arabs or any other 'generic' title: Eventually, they could have almost a dozen different Factions from Medieval to early Modern Eras among all the Arab, North African, Persian, Turkic, etc. Islamic factions. Bring on the DLCs!

I remember how the 1000 AD scenario for CIV4 had a massive "Arab" blob all the way from Spain to India, which made absolutely no sense. If we get Umayyads and Mali in vanilla Humankind, we could be looking forward to Abbasids, Mamluks, Kanem, Yemen, Seljuks, the Ilkhanate, Timurids, Delhi, and possibly even more in the Middle Ages alone! Not all can make it, of course, but the sheer variety makes the missed opportunities represented by an Arab blob all the more poignant.

 

[Krajzen]

I remember how the 1000 AD scenario for CIV4 had a massive "Arab" blob all the way from Spain to India, which made absolutely no sense. If we get Umayyads and Mali in vanilla Humankind, we could be looking forward to Abbasids, Mamluks, Kanem, Yemen, Seljuks, the Ilkhanate, Timurids, Delhi, and possibly even more in the Middle Ages alone! Not all can make it, of course, but the sheer variety makes the missed opportunities represented by an Arab blob all the more poignant.

Wasn't "umayyads" some code name part of the screenshot's name? Technically it could be some leftover artifact or whatever, with us getting Abbasids for example.

Despite this, I actually realized that yeah you are right, it is better if we don't get generic "Arabs" civ but proper dynastic names. I'm honestly surprised I didn't think of this earlier as an medieval-islamo-phile, maybe I was pesimistic and didn't realize Humankind may potentially get much more Islamic civilizations than Civ series, which always get "Arabs", Ottomans, and maybe Morocco/Mali/Songhai. Avoiding Arabs generic name allows you to introduce Nabatea, Palmyra, whatever Yemeni civ, different caliphates and empires, and separate them clearly from Greater Iran cultural area and Maghreb cultural area for example, industrial era Arabian civs (uh, Egypt maybe? Didn't it have a period between Ottomans and British when it was kind of Independent and strong?), or modern Arab states (please God just no Saudi Arabia, no politics but it's terrifying country).

Now I was going to complain "why then Persia is named Persia instead of Achaemenids" but then realized that three Persian empires fall into classical era, Achaemenids, Arsacids (Parthia) and Sasanids, and that may have been an effort to catch them all under one term. Which wouldn't be necessary maybe, but makes much more sense (as they are one cultural continuity and progression, together all treated as part of history of Iran) than doing the same blob for "Arabs", where you get different "Arab" civilizations in extremely different places and times.

 

[mitsho]

Also, you can still introduce late-classical Parthians alongside Classical Persians if you want to

Yeah, I would applaud their decision to go with Ummayads instead of Arabs as well, but we are not quite there yet. And yes the Ottoman Governors of Egypt got quite some freedom which qualifies Egypt as an Industrial era civ, but then again, the Oman/Sansibar union is just a much cooler "Arab" representative for that era. Or even Lebanon. I also would like Saudi Arabia/Emirates/Libya as a modern Arab representative. In any case, it's cool that one may fill out such strings for "the Arabs" over the eras. It depends on how it works out gameplay wise, but I can definitely see many candidates for an expansion.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

We're right back to the excellent looking culture cards! Yes I'm still sour about the English one...

 

[Siptah]

I’m still holding out hope that the Holy Romans are their own Culture and that they’ll get the Paladin as their unit, given that Roland et al are most closely associated with Charlemagne.

Keep in mind that Paladin in the HRE just means being an elector of the emperor, a Kurfürst (the word comes from the same root as palace).
I doubt we‘ll see the HRE in medieval, with the Franks as founders of the empire and Charlemagne‘s home culture already covered. It‘s still possible to have a dynasty named culture à la Staufer, but as the card leans so heavily on the look of the Teutonic Order, it will probably be the Teutons or, hopefully, the Teutonic Order itself. Would be a great and refreshing pick in my opinion.
An early modern HRE inspired faction is always possible, but I would just use Austria then, and not call it HRE - and for early modern, I would prefer Bavaria

 

[conorbebe]

We're right back to the excellent looking culture cards! Yes I'm still sour about the English one...

I'm a bit underwhelmed with this one too. It's just a bunch of cavalry lancers surrounded by mist. There's nothing distinctively "Frankish" about it.

 

[Krajzen]

I'm a bit underwhelmed with this one too. It's just a bunch of cavalry lancers surrounded by mist. There's nothing distinctively "Frankish" about it.

Genuine question: what would you give as genuinely Frankish thing? A cathedral also wouldn't be that "Frankish" iconic. And IIRC Charlemagne didn't look particularly unique

I honestly don't know how would I differentiate England from Franks myself. IMO the easiest route would be focusing on Anglo-Saxons and King Arthur legend in the first case, but that's Anglo-Saxons not England exactly. Similarly my first thoughts about medieval France are Notre Dame and Joan d'Arc, but these are not 'Franks'.

I think that's somewhat problematic for most medieval Catholic cultures. I have no immediate idea how would I differentiate even my own motherland, Poland, in the medieval era. No, winged hussars are not from this era. Almost all impressive Polish architecture also isn't medieval (Malbork Castle is an old Teutonic fortress, there are Gothic cathedrals but not very distinctively Polish). For medieval Poland the only visually distinctive thing I could think of are early Slavic - looking druzhina warriors and even then they'd desperstely need huge shields with RED BACKGROUND WHITE EAGLE for this to be acceptable.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I'm a bit underwhelmed with this one too. It's just a bunch of cavalry lancers surrounded by mist. There's nothing distinctively "Frankish" about it.

I get what you mean compared to Assyrian, Hittitite and Mycean cards this attacking scene has a lot less going on, no buildings in the background or different soldiers. But this one has a mounted lancer which to me is something I associate strongly with the Franks. Unless medieval England is well known for dinner parties I still dont really get the English card.

 

[conorbebe]

I get what you mean compared to Assyrian, Hittitite and Mycean cards this attacking scene has a lot less going on, no buildings in the background or different soldiers. But this one has a mounted lancer which to me is something I associate strongly with the Franks. Unless medieval England is well known for dinner parties I still dont really get the English card.

For the English I would have loved a vibrant green farmland vista with a horse-drawn carriage transporting crops along a dirt road up a hill towards a foreboding castle. Something like that would have not only been much more visually striking, but would have captured the main focuses of the culture as well.

 

[Zaarin]

And IIRC Charlemagne didn't look particularly unique

He was rather tall--"but not exceptionally so."

 

[Krajzen]

He was rather tall--"but not exceptionally so."

If we are truly going to get Revolutionary France as a civ, I propose only Napoleon's hat and his hair sticking from the bottom of the frame, with civ's short description stating calmly that Napoleon being short is a myth.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

For the English I would have loved a vibrant green farmland vista with a horse-drawn carriage transporting crops along a dirt road up a hill towards a foreboding castle. Something like that would have not only been much more visually striking, but would have captured the main focuses of the culture as well.

You could put some sheep in there too because I think the wool industry could be considred pretty emblematic for medieval England and fits the Agrarian culture type but yea that sounds great.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

You could put some sheep in there too because I think the wool industry could be considred pretty emblematic for medieval England and fits the Agrarian culture type but yea that sounds great.

Yes and no. On the one hand, sheep were a 'standard' domestic animal in England from pre-Medieval times, but the wool industry of the late Medieval Era is incompatible with the English Longbowmen - the 'enclosure' of farmland for pasturage for sheep virtually wiped out the independent class of 'Yeomen' that provided the archers!

 

[j51]

Yes and no. On the one hand, sheep were a 'standard' domestic animal in England from pre-Medieval times, but the wool industry of the late Medieval Era is incompatible with the English Longbowmen - the 'enclosure' of farmland for pasturage for sheep virtually wiped out the independent class of 'Yeomen' that provided the archers!

But those where different parts of 'England' though? The Yeoman mostly came from Wales and the west Midlands, while the wool raised for the trade with Flanders mostly came East Anglia and thereabouts. That's what I always thought at least, but I could easily be wrong.

 

[Guandao]

I'm a bit underwhelmed with this one too. It's just a bunch of cavalry lancers surrounded by mist. There's nothing distinctively "Frankish" about it.

I wish Aachen Cathedral was in the background of the Frankish faction art....remember the one that Age of Empires 2 had as a Briton wonder, for no good reason?

A funny thing I learned about Charlemagne was his complaining about the short mantles that became popular with the Frankish noblemen at the time. He said the shorter cloaks would leave his backside frozen if he want to the toilet. Also some interesting correspondence with King Offa of Mercia, mentioning the mantle issue...

 

[Siptah]

And, of course, a large number of the scribblers in the Scriptoriums were originally Irish, so another 'borrowed' Emblematic like the 'English; Longbow!

Not so sure on that. The reason for giving the Scriptorium to the Franks might be the Carolingian Minuscule, which is a genuinely Frankish invention.

 

[Gwydden]

I agree that the last couple pieces of culture art have been rather drab and uninspired compared to what we've seen before. I wish there was more pushback against this unfortunate notion that the Middle Ages were a particularly awful and colorless era. For the English, I might have gone with something like this: in the foreground, a hunter stalks his prey in a wood, a deer stands in the middleground, and in the background we can see a distant hamlet with a castle and maybe a church. Throw in a river and some sky to break up the green, and you have a colorful composition that incorporates the faction's affinity and their emblematics in a fairly seamless way. And it evokes Robin Hood, which is about as medieval English as you can get.

For the Franks, a tourney would match the Romans' gladiatorial games' art quite nicely. Preferably, a High Medieval tournament, with a chaotic melee in the sward and stands full of lively ladies and disapproving clerics. Plenty of chances for colorful heraldry and fancy dresses—rich folks want to show off those dyes, people! If it must be Charlemagne, I'd love some Einhart references, though I doubt many would get them. There's something amusing and compelling about an image of Charlemagne practicing his letters under a monk's watchful eye, surrounded by his many wives and daughters and counts. Probably because that picture humanizes him a great deal.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Not so sure on that. The reason for giving the Scriptorium to the Franks might be the Carolingian Minuscule, which is a genuinely Frankish invention.

Depends on who you ask. The Carolingian Minuscule script is frequently attributed to Alcuin of York, who was Northumbrian/Anglo-Saxon, invited to court as a scholar by Charlemagne himself. The new script was specifically designed to make it easier to copy and distribute the Vulgate Bible, which Big Charley wanted to make available to every priest and church in the Empire.

But, having a script from the British Isles sort of fits with the Scriptorium itself, which didn't start out as Frankish at all: two of the earliest Scriptoriums known are both in Italy: Monte Cassino dating to 529 CE and Cassiodorus' Vivarium from about 530 - 540 CE in southern Italy.