Humankind Game by Amplitude

[Boris Gudenuf]

SInce the concepts of Indian Caste System came with the Vedic conquest. I might say that Harappan caste systme was more or less different to Vedic Era. Particularly Ramayana emphasis on the Vedic superiority and emphasis on Warrior (Ksatriya) caste and to back Monarchy system. However there were Commonwealth style government exists in Old India and Ksatriya as Old Indians (maybe Harrappans too!) know were very different to those of Khmer and their successor states (particularly Ayutthaya which later formed what's known as Siam to the World much later on). While those of Khmers and Siamese assigned meanings of the term Ksatriya and Raj as one and same (And means King), Indians as i've just know in very recent years, referred to this caste as something akin to Euro Knights or Japanese Samurais, and the 'Raj' was more or less different to Ksatriyas.

As far as I know, there is no evidence for a Caste System in the Indus Valley Civilization. In fact, since there are no foundations of 'Palace Complexes", there is not a lot of evidence for the sort of Extreme Stratification you get in Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean, Chinese, and later Indian states in which a tiny group is fabulously rich and the majority are either dirt poor or nearly so. Financial/physical 'egality' does not necessarily mean that there wasn't extreme social/cultural inequality, but we simply don't know.

I'd say Harappans might be a kinda confederacy rather than a single Empire. In India, the concepts of 'Emperor' (Chakrabhadi: means a person whom his chariot wheel rolls undeterred) was so grand that only a few king / president may earn this title.

Also did Varanasi (กรุงพาราณสี) associated to Harappans or Vedics? there were many siamese folklore citing of this city under their renditions (Krung Pharanasi) ruled by a great 'king' maned 'Promatat' (Bhrama Dati, The Gifted One) and peasantry with local Thai names. Did you know the identity of this mythical king who he was? and which era did he associated to? Harappans or Vedic or later?

I tend to agree with you on the concept of the Indus Civilization as more of a city state confederacy than a single political totality/empire.
But here's the crux of the problem, and also to the answer to any questions about Vedics and their relationship to the earlier Indus culture - we literally Do Not Have A Clue. We can't read any of the Indus Valley script, we don't even know what language family it relates to. We do not know if the "Aryan"/Indo-European/Vedic" peoples arrived in the area with nothing but chariots and picked up all their other cultural traits from the Indus Valley people, or they completely wiped out all cultural traces of the earlier Civ and replaced them.

Both of those two possibilities, by the way, are the least likely. Everything we know about 'cultural fusion' tells us that the most likely scenario is that the Vedic Culture was a combination of traits they brought with them, traits they picked up from the existing people (who, after all, being part of a wide-spread civil population, probably outnumbered them by a wide margin) and traits that they would insist are still original but in fact have changed beyond all recognition.

Because it shows up in virtually every Human culture, from Mesopotamia to China to Mongolia to Rome, Greece, North America, Central America, etc. we can be sure the Harappans had a 'Founder' myth of some kind, but, again, and I'll keep repeating it: We Do Not Know. Of the thousands of figurines found in Indus archeological sites, we cannot even say which of them are Religious (if any) and what, if they are, any of them mean. There are a lot of models of cattle/oxen, and the Indus may have been one of the first civilizations to domesticate cattle as draft animals - and therefore, like later Mari in Mesopotamia, make them part of their financial and belief system, because they were so important - but (repeat after me) We Do Not Know. It would be really nice if we found an unmistakable Altar in a Harappan site with a set of Horns of Divinity on it, as we find all over the Middle East and Crete, which would solidify Cattle as important to their religion, but right now, for all we know, they worshipped Terry Pratchett's Great Om

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

What is 'Great Om' ? a pre-Hindu Dharmic Religion?

 

[mitsho]

a turtle at the time of the books, and before he was a lion I think. It's just a literary reference, to an excellent book I might add, but nothing to do with history. That's just the rest of Boris' excellent post.

 

[AntSou]

@Catoninetales_Amplitude
I have two questions
1) I see civilizations having unique... I mean, emblematic unit and building, but not ability of the civ itself. Are they going to have emblematic abilities?

I'm fairly certain he said earlier in the thread that they will have unique abilities but he's not at freedom to share those yet.

Check his post history, it should be there.

Edit: I might have gotten it mixed with the 'traits'.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

What is 'Great Om' ? a pre-Hindu Dharmic Religion?

Sorry, a literary reference. Terry Pratchett, the greatest writer of English in the twentieth century (which no one noticed, because he was so funny his readers were all laughing too hard to notice how incredibly Good a writer he was) imagined a situation in which the Gods got larger or smaller based on the number of worshippers they had, and Great Om, who had once been a powerful smiter, was down to one part-time follower and so manifested as a very small turtle constantly afraid of being snatched up by a passing Eagle. I found the concept so intriguing that for years my wife and I kept a small figurine of a turtle on the dashboard of our car as a Protective Amulet.
The book is Pyramids by Terry Pratchett, part of his Discworld series, and, No, having retired from bookselling several years ago, I am not getting paid to throw in plugs for books and authors, no matter how good they are.

I'm fairly certain he said earlier in the thread that they will have unique abilities but he's not at freedom to share those yet.

Check his post history, it should be there.

Edit: I might have gotten it mixed with the 'traits'.

He confirmed only that the 'types' of Factions/Civs: Builder, Warmonger, Expansionist, etc, each have some kind of specialized bonus/ability/peculiar enhancement related to their type. One could assume from that that Harappans, being Agrarian, will share with other Agrarian Factions some bonus related to Food Production or possibly, they being related, Population Growth.

But, as said, no details yet on any of the traits/bonuses/capabilities for any of the different types or even if any such are Fixed from beginning to end of the game, or if they change based on Era or some other mechanism.

As usual, it's CivFanatcs as Science Fiction: we're all speculating in a Vacuum or Near-Vacuum of information . . .

 

[Kjimmet]

Sorry, a literary reference. Terry Pratchett, the greatest writer of English in the twentieth century (which no one noticed, because he was so funny his readers were all laughing too hard to notice how incredibly Good a writer he was) imagined a situation in which the Gods got larger or smaller based on the number of worshippers they had, and Great Om, who had once been a powerful smiter, was down to one part-time follower and so manifested as a very small turtle constantly afraid of being snatched up by a passing Eagle. I found the concept so intriguing that for years my wife and I kept a small figurine of a turtle on the dashboard of our car as a Protective Amulet.
The book is Pyramids by Terry Pratchett, part of his Discworld series, and, No, having retired from bookselling several years ago, I am not getting paid to throw in plugs for books and authors, no matter how good they are.

I thought it was Small Gods, or does the Pyramids toy with the same idea? I haven't read that one.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

The most certain aspects of the Indus Valley Civilization are:
1. Extensive water management technology, both widespread irrigation systems and 'plumbing' even into individual houses with primitive toilets, wash basins, and running water, city drainage and sewer systems.
2. Widespread trade on both land and sea - no models of boats found, so what kind is anybody's guess, but constructed harbors on coastal sites and canals that are too big for irrigation, so presume some kind of river boat traffic. Trade goods found from Mesopotamia, Central Asia, central India, Iran and the Persian Gulf. They had standardized weights and measures, and Trade and manufacturing goods for trade seems to have occupied the majority of the city populations.
3. NO direct evidence of armies or major military establishments - cities are walled, but no hoards of stored weapons as are found in Mesopotamia and Greece, no statues, figurines, or wall frescos of massed warriors or soldiers. This doesn't mean they were unarmed, but it implies that any military they did have was not very important to them.
4. It was HUGE. Over 1000 sites found from the borders of Afghanistan to the modern Pakistan/Indian coast, including cities of 30 - 60,000 estimated population and pretty much uniform cultural artifacts rom one end to the other. Whether that means it was all a single "Empire" or a web of city states is still debated. One indicator, though, is that nothing resembling a Central Palace or governing complex has been found in even the largest of the cities, which seems to rule against a central government.

So, the problem with a Harappan military is not that it didn't exist, but that at the moment we don't have any idea what it looked like or what, if any, specific type of 'particular' (Unique or Emblematic) unit they may have fielded.

That's what led me to (tentatively) conclude that Humankind's Harappan Courier might be a 'semi-military' unit to enhance contact and trade, which would tie in with one of the salient features we can certainly ascribe to the Harappan Civilization.

That is essentially the correct explanation for why the Harrapan have the Runner as an Emblematic Unit: While they most likely had a military (even if perhaps only for defense), we know nothing about it, and an unknown is hardly "emblematic" of a culture.

When they all get back to work on Monday @Catoninetales_Amplitude can doubtless give you a more informed answer, but I'd bet money that the 'unique' Civ/Faction attributes come from their type: Warmonger, Expansionist, Agrarian, Scientist, Builder - and, presumably, some more relating to, possibly, Trade, Religion, or 'Gold' in general. Another point is that since they have you choose a new faction every Era, they could also 'tweak' the attributes from each Type in each Era - that would give you potentially 6 different Civ attributes even if you kept the same Faction from Bronze Age to the end of the game.

Yes, Cultures will have more aspects to them than the Emblematic Unit and Emblematic Quarter, but we won't go into details about that until we have revealed more about the gameplay, and unfortunately we are not ready to do that yet.

As usual, it's CivFanatcs as Science Fiction: we're all speculating in a Vacuum or Near-Vacuum of information . . .

So "Hype" is actually a form of zero point energy?

 

[Kaan Boztepe]

So "Hype" is actually a form of zero point energy?

ZPM ( see Stargate atlantis ) is how we power all these forums

 

[pokiehl]

Hate to repeat myself or seem pushy, but it seems like @Catoninetales_Amplitude didn't see this question I posed a while back. Any chance of an answer?

Catoninetales, thanks a lot for participating in these forums. Are you able to answer either of these questions?

1. Will Humankind have modding tools and a Steam workshop for user mods? Modding is really important to me and other players (it's one of the main reasons I love Civ so much), and I think it greatly extends the longevity and appeal of strategy games.

2. Will Humankind have an open alpha like other Amplitude games?

 

[Vincent_lacruz]

ZPM ( see Stargate atlantis ) is how we power all these forums

Nah, how can surfing everyday on forum to get us salivating (or at least think about it) could be free of energy? At least, as long as you don't use unpaid interns that is

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

I saw your questions, but since I am in no position to answer at the moment (Something, something, that joke Jeff made during the Video Game Awards...), it had slipped my mind again by the time I came into the office.

However, I can at least assure you I have had many conversations with the team about the importance of good modding support.

 

[pokiehl]

I saw your questions, but since I am in no position to answer at the moment (Something, something, that joke Jeff made during the Video Game Awards...), it had slipped my mind again by the time I came into the office.

However, I can at least assure you I have had many conversations with the team about the importance of good modding support.

Thank you very much

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I thought it was Small Gods, or does the Pyramids toy with the same idea? I haven't read that one.

My Bad. It was Small Gods. Pyramids also touched on religion, but not to the same extent: it was more of a satire specifically on the ancient Egyptian form of religion and after-life belief, combined with a whack at the modern 'Pyramid Power' enthusiasts.

Obviously it's time for me to go back and re-read the entire Discworld series to refresh my memory!

 

[Krajzen]

I saw your questions, but since I am in no position to answer at the moment (Something, something, that joke Jeff made during the Video Game Awards...), it had slipped my mind again by the time I came into the office.

However, I can at least assure you I have had many conversations with the team about the importance of good modding support.

I guess you are in no position to answer mine two questions either?

One more thing I have realized about "more than 10 civs": the problem "map would have some identical players" exists virtually only in the first age. By second age there are 10x10=100 possible civs, so that really shouldn't be an issue... I'm sure people would prefer "you can take more than 10 major empire players if you want, they will just sometimes repeat" rather than hard no.

12 playable civs would be already great improvement, 14 would be wonderful, and with 20 you could proudly stand next to Civ6

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

No, I am not in a position to answer that, either. All I can say that this issue involves many more factors than the number of available cultures per era (map generation and balance, optimization, etc.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

No, I am not in a position to answer that, either. All I can say that this issue involves many more factors than the number of available cultures per era (map generation and balance, optimization, etc.)

Just want to say here that I appreciate your patience with a group that is going to keep prying for things you are not at liberty to reveal: saying essentially "no comment" over and over has to get old fast, but we all appreciate the feedback, even when it's just to let us know we're getting ahead of things.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

No problem. Even if I itch to give you all proper answers and have to restrain myself, the question you ask are valuable feedback to us in themselves.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Just an observation, but twice recently I have commented, in this Thread and in another, about the really good communication that Amplitude maintains with the gamer-base, and have gotten more 'Likes' from those comments than, I think, anything else I've posted anywhere in this Forum. I think that speaks to how much we appreciate the effort, no matter how much you have to Restrain Yourself (besides, as you know already, CivFanatics are completely Unrestrained, so it makes a good balance)

I guess you are in no position to answer mine two questions either?

One more thing I have realized about "more than 10 civs": the problem "map would have some identical players" exists virtually only in the first age. By second age there are 10x10=100 possible civs, so that really shouldn't be an issue... I'm sure people would prefer "you can take more than 10 major empire players if you want, they will just sometimes repeat" rather than hard no.

12 playable civs would be already great improvement, 14 would be wonderful, and with 20 you could proudly stand next to Civ6

Speaking to the Additional Factions question: since Humankind appears to not use named leaders or animated specific Leader Caricatures or Portraits, but rather 'still' card-like notices of the Emblematic and other peculiarities of each Faction, it seems to me that would (assuming you folks release the Tools) make it very easy for the Mod Community to add just about any Faction imaginable, without having to draw on high-level animation or graphics skills (not to say some of the Community don't have those skills). Given the number of Civilizations, Alternate Leaders, and 'Altered' Civilizations provided by the Mod Community already in both Civ V and Civ VI, that would provide any gamer with potentially a huge list of Alternative Factions for every Era - and give Amplitude a large mass of feedback on what Factions and Faction attributes are played and desired (and work well) for later 'official' Expansions.

 

[Gedemon]

yes, while I can understand that 10 players is an official limit for balance/optimization, I really hope that it won't be hardcoded.

 

[AntSou]

yes, while I can understand that 10 players is an official limit for balance/optimization, I really hope that it won't be hardcoded.

It might be heavily dependent on map size if they follow the same one city per region approach of Endless Legend. So 10 Factions sounds already on the limit if that's the case. Each additional faction might require at least one additional region.

8 Factions in Endless Legend on a Huge map ran pretty slowly in the late game.