Rome can be expansionist, and Persia imperial, Mystery civ will be random. they can do anything they want after all. there are no set categories.
I‘m glad, Maya got builder and that they didn‘t go the cliche route with scientific. That never made much sense to me. Being good at astronomy and calendars is one thing, but science is more than that.
They seem quite well set-up, but why do we need the noble adjective there?
The problem with Maya as Scientist is that the Olmecs are already in the game, and a great deal of Mayan 'science' was actually earlier - the Olmecs show evidence of a form of Long Count calendar and astronomic observation centuries before the Mayans 'perfected' them. Also Zero Notation, independently invented in Meso-America long before the Cambodians (the actual source of 'Indian/Arabic Numerals') now is suspected to be Pre-Mayan.
All of which makes the Mayan = Science hypothesis a little harder to defend.
'Atlatl' is a Nahautl/Aztec word, and archery was just not used much in Meso-America. The atlatl-type throwing stick to extend range and velocity of javelins was in use as far back as the Olmec, but we have no idea what they called them. Hence, a lot of Javelins coming out of the early Americas in the game makes a certain amount of sense.
The real question is, IF the various Javelins are Ranged Units (almost a safe bet) how do they differ from 'ordinary' javelins (if there are any) or Archers (which almost have to be in the game as 'generic' Ancient or Classical Units).
Realistically, they should have shorter range than Archers, but might have a higher Ranged Factor from the impact of heavier javelins compared to arrows. Also, since it appears that ranged units cannot fire over other friendly units unless perched on top of a hill (based on videos) that makes ranged units potentially extremely vulnerable to a quick Melee/Mounted charge (as they were historically). Since a javelin is, by definition, when held instead of thrown a short sort of spear, Javelineers could realistically be given a higher Melee Factor than Archers so that they could survive such a charge and keep peppering the enemy with missile fire longer.
All speculation, of course - when are they going to show us some Combat Factors or a video of a full Battle?
'Atlatl' is a Nahautl/Aztec word, and archery was just not used much in Meso-America. The atlatl-type throwing stick to extend range and velocity of javelins was in use as far back as the Olmec, but we have no idea what they called them. Hence, a lot of Javelins coming out of the early Americas in the game makes a certain amount of sense.
I'm pretty sure they didn't call them javelins either, so this seems a bit irrelevant...
I can't see the Aztecs getting anything other than the Eagle Warrior as their EU, so I guess all other forms of Mesoamerican warfare will go unrepresented because we really needed two javelin throwers apparently.
The point I'm making is the Olmec and Maya EU seem so far indistinguishable. I want as much unit variety as possible. Where's the fun in upgrading from one javelin thrower to a better javelin thrower? What's to set this unit apart from a "transcended" Olmec javelin thrower? Even the visual design is almost identical.
I'm pretty sure they didn't call them javelins either, so this seems a bit irrelevant...
I can't see the Aztecs getting anything other than the Eagle Warrior as their EU, so I guess all other forms of Mesoamerican warfare will go unrepresented because we really needed two javelin throwers apparently.
The point I'm making is the Olmec and Maya EU seem so far indistinguishable. I want as much unit variety as possible. Where's the fun in upgrading from one javelin thrower to a better javelin thrower? What's to set this unit apart from a "transcended" Olmec javelin thrower? Even the visual design is almost identical.
I get the concern, and I have to wonder if there is a better option that distinguishes the two more effectively but in the context of the actual game, it will probably feel quite different. A unit that comes as early as the bronze age will probably mostly be dealing with "barbarians"/minor factions (of course, we have no idea how Humankind will handle these ideas yet) whereas a classical era unit is at the point of being ready to attack other civilizations. They could also have quite different mechanics; I think the "poison" mentioned in the description might be a hint to this and maybe we'll see something cool and flavourful there (eg a damage-over-time effect).
I think the "poison" mentioned in the description might be a hint to this and maybe we'll see something cool and flavourful there (eg a damage-over-time effect).
Those red temples in the artwork are spectacular! I hope that translates into their in game cities apperance if so theres a good chance I'll be picking mayans purely to have such a striking city!
Builder is a good call for them I'm predicting Egypt-Maya playthrough just to see how many pyramids a single state can support!
Emblematic unit: Noble Javelineer?
Why not at least call them Holkan like on other games? By the way as far as I know poison wasnt a think on Mesoamerica, that was for the Amazon, Central Africa and Indonesia.
Also this could be unpopular and unlikely on game, but could be great if Aztec get some archer unit. Why? Well nahua people come from the northern Chichimec region, these people were know as great archers (even the spanish conquistadors noticed it). There are also the Purepechas/Tarascans who talk about their migration from the north, and coincidentally they also used bowmen on great numbers.
Could be perfect to represent this postclassic invasion of Mesoamerica by these northern bowmen nations.
Emblematic Quarter: K'uh Nuh
Would have been great if Mayans get the Ulama Ballcourt. While the Aztecs get the Tzompantli or the Chinampa.
The problem with Maya as Scientist is that the Olmecs are already in the game, and a great deal of Mayan 'science' was actually earlier - the Olmecs show evidence of a form of Long Count calendar and astronomic observation centuries before the Mayans 'perfected' them. Also Zero Notation, independently invented in Meso-America long before the Cambodians (the actual source of 'Indian/Arabic Numerals') now is suspected to be Pre-Mayan.
All of which makes the Mayan = Science hypothesis a little harder to defend.
I'm pretty sure they didn't call them javelins either, so this seems a bit irrelevant...
I can't see the Aztecs getting anything other than the Eagle Warrior as their EU, so I guess all other forms of Mesoamerican warfare will go unrepresented because we really needed two javelin throwers apparently.
The point I'm making is the Olmec and Maya EU seem so far indistinguishable. I want as much unit variety as possible. Where's the fun in upgrading from one javelin thrower to a better javelin thrower? What's to set this unit apart from a "transcended" Olmec javelin thrower? Even the visual design is almost identical.
BUT in fact we have no idea if the two units are anything like identical, because, as far as I know, we have no information on their Combat Factors, special attributes, costs, or 'Emblematic" effects. Once we get some of that, we can legitimately critique their choices of Emblematic units.
If I'm not so worried about multiple 'javelin-throwing' Emblematic Units it might be because we've already experienced more 'Knight-equivalent' mounted Heavy Cavalry Unique Units in Civ than you can shake a lance at, and the javelin or throwing spear was one of the most common ancient/classical weapons from the Americas to Europe to Africa/Middle East, and has rarely been in Civ games at all.
It will be interesting to see how they differentiate the 'javelin' Emblematic units, and also whether they have a generic Javelin-throwing Unit or a Slinger as an early-game Ranged Unit, or both (which seems like Overkill, given that some kind of generic Archer is almost a requirement for Historical 4X)
Indeed, I can’t find any evidence online that the Maya used poison-tipped spears, or weapons of any kind. It seems the range of the poison dart frog does not extend northwards enough to overlap with Maya territory.
Not completely sold on that one. It might as well be a generic temple-like quarter that looks like a pyramid for mesoamerican cultures. But may also be the Aztec's EQ.
Would definitely be disappointed if both Maya and Aztecs had pyramids as their EQs. Would like to see chinampa or Mesoamerican ballcourts featured in some way.
that line of trees and 'park' like area outside the temple isnt that a common feature across a lot of districts we've seen? Correct me if I'm wrong but the emblematic quarters dont seem restricted in their design to have a certain layout like the generic districts too. I'm fairly sure that's not a EQ.
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