I have the perfect was to solve the problem of illegal immigration, FOREVER!

[betazed]

@leonel: No not everyone loses.

For example, if US threw open the borders, the only people who would lose is the current citizens of the US. Once the borders are thrown open and once the situation stabilizes teh only people who will come here and stay here ( remember it will be as easy to go back as to come) will be people who will not have a better life style back home - whereeve their home is. So no they do not lose. Anybody who would be worse off will simply not come or once here would go back.

Please, do not try to say that you are doing the world a favor by not letting people in.

The only reason you do not do it is because you do not want to lose your current lifestyle. Nothing wrong with being selfish, but at least accept it.

 

[Speedo]

You deny that human beings have the right to be free from segregation and discrimination in any way? You deny centuries of progress on the concept of human rights? You deny your countrymen and self an ideal that hundreds of thousands, nay, millions of Americans have found and died for throughout your history?
---------
hmmm.... I wonder if you will still believe that, if I start believing that it is my right to discriminate against you and start pursuing that belief.

You are both mixing fundamental/inalienable rights and plain rights. There exists only one fundamental right, and I listed it above. Everything else can be taken away as soon as someone or some power decides to, because they are defined by society.

You think you have a right to life? Go jump in the middle of the ocean, and tell a shark about your right to life. Be sure to let me know what he thinks. When you're in most societies though, that society does chose to grant you the right to live. As soon as that society isn't there or no longer supports that belief, your "right" goes *poof.* Just like that.

Fascism, thy name is Speedo.

Cool

 

[Leonel]

@leonel: No not everyone loses.

For example, if US threw open the borders, the only people who would lose is the current citizens of the US. Once the borders are thrown open and once the situation stabilizes teh only people who will come here and stay here ( remember it will be as easy to go back as to come) will be people who will not have a better life style back home - whereeve their home is. So no they do not lose. Anybody who would be worse off will simply not come or once here would go back.

Please, do not try to say that you are doing the world a favor by not letting people in.

The only reason you do not do it is because you do not want to lose your current lifestyle. Nothing wrong with being selfish, but at least accept it.

Yeah stablizes after a brief period of chaos and anarchy, that is IF it stabalizes. And I admit I want to keep my current lifestyle. I enjoy having not dying of infection, electricity to use, water to bath in, walking around the streets without having to wad through thousands of homeless and without having the fear of being robbed as the police would be struggling at keeping crime from spiraling out of control. What about the rights of the local citizens? Don't they have the right to live in security? Don't they have the right to a standard of living they're comfortable with?

And what about the limited resources in the developed countries? They will be overwhelmed and bankrupted, leaving the millions of immigrants back to where they were. How are public services going to be sustained if millions of undocumented immigrants that use these services aren't under any legal obligation to pay the taxes that help keep these services at least alive?

Here's an experiment. Open all your doors and windows and announce to the people in your city's ghetto that anyone can move in and out of your home at their own pleasure. See what happens.

 

[Jorge]

What about the rights of the local citizens? Don't they have the right to live in security? Don't they have the right to a standard of living they're comfortable with?

Let´s put it this way: your right to a comfortable standard of living (ie having a car, a big house, etc ...) is less important to the right to life of another person. It´s a question of priorities, and if I have to chose between the right of a person to health care and my right to have a car, I have to chose the first one.

 

[BasketCase]

Legalizing immigration will do very little to improve the living standards of the poor in most parts of the world.

The simple fact that there are a large number of people IN the United States who are dirt-poor, is enough.

But I've got more.

Legalizing immigration is worthless for people who can't work--say, due to lack of education, mental illness, physical disability, or whatever. You can't force a person to get an education.

Next, a little basic math: letting everybody into the rich countries is already pretty pointless to begin with--as I pointed out, the presence of poverty IN rich nations proves this. The wealth will merely be spread out among a larger number of people--not including the richest ones. After all, centuries of attempts to level the playing field have constantly failed.

Taking the wealth away from the rich is never going to work. What must happen is that poor nations need to improve their condition and create wealth for themselves. This is the only way the average wealth of all humans can be increased.

Getting rid of dictators is the first step.

 

[BasketCase]

You are wrong. The freedom to move about as one pleases is a basic human right.

.....and I don't see where this is written anywhere.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

It is through progressiveness that the human race advances, and immigration laws as they exist now are outmoded and segregationist, a holdover from the imperialist days since past (in most nations, anyways).

Immigration laws are not outmoded (though they certainly need modified). They prevent Western economies from collapsing. Social governments like we have in the West cannot support the influx that would occur. While your thoughts are great in theory and hopefully we'll see a world that can handle free movement someday, right now the developed world is not ready for it. Doing it now would be bad for the world as a whole.

 

[Shaihulud]

This is a joke right? You try to discourage immigration by letting them come in, screw up the place and leave?! A country going by such an immigration policy is literally asking to be raped and plundered. Poor people from lets see Africa, India, China, Indonesia coming in unrestricted, don't expect rich people coming in though! If the social security in acountry is good, I might even consider "immigrating" for a spot of vacation.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Dude, you do realise that we are talking millions of people here, don't you? Were Spain to implement your ideas, it's population would double in no time. Chaos would be the result.

Same with the United States, though this country was founded by taking in the people that other countries don't want or care about.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

This has nothing to do with immigration. It is not up to private individuals to allow or deny entry to a country, it is up to government officials. I am not speaking of land ownership, I am speaking of immigration. Please re-read my post a little more carefully.

Actually, the land where immigrants first settle is public space. You don't allow your fellow citizens walk into your house whenever they feel like it, it wouldn't be different with immigrants. But if there is no 'public space' then all immigrants would need would be aprooval from the land owners (and nothing else).

Hey, while we're at it, let's eliminate all taxes, disband the military and smoke pot all day long!

Aww... man, don't tempt me

 

[Evil Tyrant]

I find it interesting, though not surprising that every poster voicing objections to my proposal does so not on humanitarian grounds but rather on economic or cultural grounds. Not one of you, aside from storealex whom I have already dealt with, disputes the all-encompassing truth that it is a fundamental human right to move about as he or she pleases. No one has bothered to deny the fact that it is through financial segregation that Western nations separate the undesireable poor and lower class of humanity from the rest of the world. While I thank you all for accepting this truth, I am alarmed that you people are willing to forsake a human being's fundamental rights simply because you (erroneously) believe that it would create adverse economic and social conditions within you own nation, that you are willing to put your petty desires ahead of the rights and well being of another human being. Who are you to deny an African or Asian wallowing in a refugee camp access to your nation's healthcare and jobs? "Sorry, if we allow you people in, it will be bad for us." This is the kind of logic that might fly in a fascist world, but in a world claiming that claims to be democratic and protecting of human rights, this is an unacceptable line of thought. There is nothing more important that basic human rights, such as the right to freedom of movement, and even on the outside chance that a massive influx of immigrants would create a depression, so be it. Democracy and human rights are more important than the quarterly profit of x company or n conglomerate.

Can you not wrap your minds around the concept that it is no one's ability nor responsibility to violate human rights?

So according to you, I have the right to move into Buckingham Palace. I wonder what the Queen's guards will have to say about that.

The fact is, there is no basic human right to go where one pleases, if I tried that in a lot of places I would be arrested for trespassing. The only basic right anyone has is the right to think and plan, all other rights are the result of centuries of warfare. Democracies exist to protect the rights of it's citizens, not the rights of anyone else, the ancient Athenians were a democratic people, yet their economy was based on slavery. In the Roman republic and early empire, Roman citizenship granted it's bearer far more rights and privileges, than any other nationality. The reason I will deny an African or Asian wallowing in a refugee camp access to my nation's services, is because they are not of my nationality, they are not my fellow citizens, I have no obligations to them whatsoever, nor have they any towards me. If refugees do not like their position, they can return to their villages and submit to their new masters, or they can take up arms and fight those who made them refugees. If they choose to remain, they will be subject to the whims and charity of foreigners.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

You, sir, are absolutely pathetic, and a testament to everything that is wrong with humanity. Your elitism, your satisfaction to simply lounge about in your apartment whilst billions suffer is vomit-enducing, and I truly wish I could deport you to Somalia or some other hellhole where you could subsist off less than a thousand calories per day. Your lack of empathy for your fellow man makes you the lowest form of creature on this Earth, far below the level of genocidal dictator. If you were to meet with an untimely demise, society would be better off, as we do not need people with your attitude.

When will you people get it drilled into your head that it is up to all to protect the rights of others? If we fail to protect the human rights of our fellow beings, we are worse than those who abuse them in the first place. Human rights extend beyond borders, nationality, and skin colour. Because someone is not a citizen of your country does not mean that your government is not obligated to protect their human rights or look after their general well being, and it most certainly does not make him a lesser being. I have already explained time and again how immigration costs and timetables (running into the tens of thousands of dollars and many, many years) are segregationist and discriminatory in nature, as the majority of mankind cannot afford them. I could not even afford to emigrate to my own country! The people of man have rights, inalienable, fundamental human rights which extend above whatever government body decides. These rights cannot be changed, these rights do not depend on some council of wealthy, white people to decide what they are. Human rights transcend the power of the individual and are the lifeblood of the masses, and it is only fascist tendencies within our very governments that attempt to keep them down. It is disgusting that nations such as America make such a concerted effort to violate and suppress the fundamental human rights of those they deem undesireable within their own nation.

Now, it appears I must haul out the heavy artillery. There is a very simple way to provide hundreds of millions of new jobs around the Western world and stimulate the economies at the same time: public works projects. Simply pick a truly ###### place (ie Mississippi) and build a great monument, a dam, a massive airport, upgrade the entire nation's highway network, etc, etc. Not only does this provide jobs for those seeking them, it provides them with skills needed to seek further employment, enables easier commerce, provides additional taxation revenue, etc. The government would also do well to reinstate taxes on the wealthy that were recently struck down, and have proven to do nothing but inhibit the economic performance and well being of the people.

Many people who post in this thread are nothing more than nationalist racists, and I suspect vote for parties such as the BNP. It appears that as the times change, racism so must change, adapting to a facade of capitalism and economic self worth. Every single person who declares that it is not their responsibility to not act or at least care about the plight of others around the world, you are racists, and are committing genocide through your inaction.

 

[Reiner]

I have the solution; let them kill you

 

[Speedo]

You, sir, are absolutely pathetic, and a testament to everything that is wrong with humanity. Your elitism, your satisfaction to simply lounge about in your apartment whilst billions suffer is vomit-enducing, and I truly wish I could deport you to Somalia or some other hellhole where you could subsist off less than a thousand calories per day. Your lack of empathy for your fellow man makes you the lowest form of creature on this Earth, far below the level of genocidal dictator. If you were to meet with an untimely demise, society would be better off, as we do not need people with your attitude.

So, oh holy one, what art thou doing to help the billions suffering around the world, besides spouting of from in front of your PC?

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Same with the United States, though this country was founded by taking in the people that other countries don't want or care about.

Yes, many were, such as my ancestors; however, we also weren't socialist back then either. You either made it on your own or died.

 

[Kayak]

Now, it appears I must haul out the heavy artillery. There is a very simple way to provide hundreds of millions of new jobs around the Western world and stimulate the economies at the same time: public works projects. Simply pick a truly ###### place (ie Mississippi) and build a great monument, a dam, a massive airport, upgrade the entire nation's highway network, etc, etc. Not only does this provide jobs for those seeking them, it provides them with skills needed to seek further employment, enables easier commerce, provides additional taxation revenue, etc. The government would also do well to reinstate taxes on the wealthy that were recently struck down, and have proven to do nothing but inhibit the economic performance and well being of the people.

With the sheer number of people that would come, we would run out of money and projects befor we could employ them all. Government project serve as a wealth transfer mechanism, not as a wealth generating system. It would break our economic system.

Think of it as a dam that is that is old and in danger of collapse. You would like to take it away but first you drain some of the water from behind it befor you do so. We need to build up the rest of the world and solve education and coruption issues befor removing all bariers to movement.

What you propose would not be humane in the end, it would only serve to bring down the nations that could help.

 

[Keirador]

I assume, Pasi, that you believe in democratic rule, right? If so, I don't find your views nearly as offensive or dangerous as most posters do, simply because it will never, ever come to pass. Obviously, most people see your ideas as supremely undesirable and possibly life-threatening, so even should you launch a major propaganda campaign to deliver your message, it will be soundly refused by the electorate. By all means, exert yourself in getting your message out, but know that it's a truly futile task. Have you even slightly convinced one person yet? Your commendable zeal and admirable respect and concern for your fellow man would be better employed in trying to raise awareness to improve existing conditions in third-world countries.

 

[Zany]

What the hell?! (Responding to the first post, I haven't read the rest of the thread)

YOU CANNOT LEGALIZE MASS IMMIGRATION. It is truly insane for you to even suggest it. We (America) needs LESS and MORE CONTROLLED immigration. And not just letting in millions of Muslims to sit in their ghettos to all of the sudden torch 30,000 cars, people who want to be a part of the American civilization, ready and willing to assimilate and serve the nation.

 

[Evil Tyrant]

You, sir, are absolutely pathetic, and a testament to everything that is wrong with humanity. Your elitism, your satisfaction to simply lounge about in your apartment whilst billions suffer is vomit-enducing, and I truly wish I could deport you to Somalia or some other hellhole where you could subsist off less than a thousand calories per day. Your lack of empathy for your fellow man makes you the lowest form of creature on this Earth, far below the level of genocidal dictator. If you were to meet with an untimely demise, society would be better off, as we do not need people with your attitude.

Yes, I know, we are all a lot of racist, xenophobic fascists for disagreeing with you. If you are so disgusted with us, and so concerned about Somalia, why don't you establish a charity and go there. The people of Somalia will be glad that you are no longer wasting your time with utopian schemes, and we will be glad we do not have to listen to them.

When will you people get it drilled into your head that it is up to all to protect the rights of others? If we fail to protect the human rights of our fellow beings, we are worse than those who abuse them in the first place. Human rights extend beyond borders, nationality, and skin colour. Because someone is not a citizen of your country does not mean that your government is not obligated to protect their human rights or look after their general well being, and it most certainly does not make him a lesser being. I have already explained time and again how immigration costs and timetables (running into the tens of thousands of dollars and many, many years) are segregationist and discriminatory in nature, as the majority of mankind cannot afford them. I could not even afford to emigrate to my own country! The people of man have rights, inalienable, fundamental human rights which extend above whatever government body decides. These rights cannot be changed, these rights do not depend on some council of wealthy, white people to decide what they are. Human rights transcend the power of the individual and are the lifeblood of the masses, and it is only fascist tendencies within our very governments that attempt to keep them down. It is disgusting that nations such as America make such a concerted effort to violate and suppress the fundamental human rights of those they deem undesireable within their own nation.

As I have said in a previous post, there is no real basic right that humans have beyond the right to think. The rights you imagine all men to possess do not exist. Any rights held by anyone are the results of war and rebellion, not by the mere fact of being human.

Now, it appears I must haul out the heavy artillery. There is a very simple way to provide hundreds of millions of new jobs around the Western world and stimulate the economies at the same time: public works projects. Simply pick a truly ###### place (ie Mississippi) and build a great monument, a dam, a massive airport, upgrade the entire nation's highway network, etc, etc. Not only does this provide jobs for those seeking them, it provides them with skills needed to seek further employment, enables easier commerce, provides additional taxation revenue, etc. The government would also do well to reinstate taxes on the wealthy that were recently struck down, and have proven to do nothing but inhibit the economic performance and well being of the people.

Yes, comrade Pasi, communism is the answer.(please disregard the dismal failure of all communist economies)

Many people who post in this thread are nothing more than nationalist racists, and I suspect vote for parties such as the BNP. It appears that as the times change, racism so must change, adapting to a facade of capitalism and economic self worth. Every single person who declares that it is not their responsibility to not act or at least care about the plight of others around the world, you are racists, and are committing genocide through your inaction.

You should probably leave this forum before we send you to a concentration camp, we fascists can be quite disagreable at times.

 

[sysyphus]

Pasi,

I sympathise with you basic point of view, but it is simply too impragmatic to allow mass numbers of people into Canada or other prosperous nations.

I would love to provide every human being on earth with the prosperity and rights we have, not a day goes by that I acknowledge that I am extremely lucky to have been born in a prosperous western country.

But the problem is that the resources required to support the needs of all the immigrants coming in just are not there, be they economic, social etc. Mass immigration would put the state of affairs in this country basically into the same state of those countries people are trying to leave.

You live in Vancouver, a city with a very high immigrant population (much like Toronto where I live), surely the challenges of immigration are apparent to you?

The only practical thing we can do is take in as many as we can support and orient our foreign policy around improving the state of affairs in nations less fortunate than us.

That in itself is a long tricky and often painful road, but in the long term it's all we can do.