[BTS] I want to improve my early game with your advices

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Round 103:

What now after Pottery?

I would decide for Alphabet because of 2 reasons:

1) ability to build bulbs (cap could contribute with 4 tiles with built bulbs and 1 water tiles or scientist, grants 21 bulbs plus palace, all-in-all with lib 36.25 bulbs only in capital)
2) ability to trade for agri instead of researching it

Back info: I know, there are the Persians around, cause a city asked me to join them and I know ragnar. I would assume, the persians are reachable by a normal boat

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Djenne gets workboat:
Now the question is: Soldier, granary or lighthouse?

Soldier -> fogbust (I would take a scout)
Granary -> Better growth after I whipped it
Lighthouse -> I can drive short-term very good commerce in using water tiles while growing

I would go for granary.

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Workers: I would go for silver first and thenafter copper. Silver can, when I can scout the coastline, give me happiness in 4 cities, copper is just local and there are other tiles to work on (e.g. water tiles for fast science).

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Round 104:

I managed to get a barbarian city at the coast. It wouldn't be my long-term best position, but it's okay. 3 resources in inner ring doesn't need fast expansion.

I keep it and build a worker. I am short in workers...

____________

Here's the plan of my first 10 cities, mainly optimized for resources:

 

[konata_LS]

This is a crucial part in my actual gameplay: I don't know when to expand. For now I have -16/turn with 378 , means I would cut my research first time in 20 rounds (i like to keep 50 to solve spontane problems). With a 5th city the economy could cripple and throw me back.

It seems you're worrying about the economy of your empire. There is a detailed article about the different economies, written by a very good Deity player. It provides you with much useful information and tips.

Agree with @ Anysense , turtling with 5 cities is not a good solution to economic problems. If you manage to build an efficient economy, you'll be able to afford a 20+ cities empire and still be a tech leader, at Prince level.

Round 103:

What now after Pottery?

I would decide for Alphabet because of 2 reasons

Yes, Alphabet is a good choice for Emperor and below.

If I were you, I would send a workboat to find Darius, for the traderoutes with him. You may also get some small techs from him through trade as well.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

It seems you're worrying about the economy of your empire. There is a detailed article about the different economies, written by a very good Deity player. It provides you with much useful information and tips.

Agree with @ Anysense , turtling with 5 cities is not a good solution to economic problems. If you manage to build an efficient economy, you'll be able to afford a 20+ cities empire and still be a tech leader, at Prince level.

OK, thanks. So I will go and expand.

Yes, Alphabet is a good choice for Emperor and below.
If I were you, I would send a workboat to find Darius, for the traderoutes with him. You may also get some small techs from him through trade as well.

Good idea. Minding that GLH could be ready soon this is a huge amount of cash, so I will whip the boat, even though it's 21 turns unhappiness.

 

[AcaMetis]

What is MC?

Metal Casting, the technology required to build The Colossus.

Yeah, that would be a question I would asked later. What would worked at monarch here? In Prince I would say I have already won now, even when I am doing relatively idiotic things. I have the biggest research, so I could spam wonders and soon overran the others or go for a solid space victory. But what in monarch?

A Construction attack is an attack with catas, right?

I'm honestly not sure, as there's a massive difference between what can work and what a given player can make work. Obviously a one city Skirmisher rush would have been much harder had you been facing Archers instead of Warriors, and if that early attack had failed you'd have been set back immensely in early production and some diplo. But would that have been game over right there and then? I don't think so. I've seen people drag a win kicking and screaming out of bleaker situations on Deity, so for sure it'd still be winnable, but whether any given person could have made it work? I'unno.

Yes, a Construction attack is pairing your best unit (preferably War Elephants, Swords or Axes if you lack those, Archers if you're desperate) with Catapults to bombard down city defences, weaken defenders with collateral damage, and than attack to capture the city. It's a slow, but consistent approach to warfare.

Would you fogbust with cities in monarch too, beginning now? Here I could setup 3 cities and fogbust nearly the whole space. If no, when would you start? After alphabet, after CoL or after currency?

Using cities to fogbust is something I'd only consider if I'm Creative and have build Great Wall, and even than I'd still need units to check and/or clear the field whenever I move outside my territories. You don't want barbarians to show up right on your border with no prior warning if you can help it, and you definitely don't want barbarian cities to show up right in your face and stifle your expansion options.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Problem wiith barbs:

I have just a warrior at my cap. If I upgrade, my money is over and the city falls into unhappiness after I move him out. GLH needs 5-6 moves until whip. So I see that fogbusting at the south could help. While I could managed the coastline, the inland is hard... but I focussed on silver and should build and defend it.

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Economical Question aside:

Now, with 5 cities i have balance +-0 with only 20% research. How would you manage that short-term, to get minimum until alphabet? I could run scientists, go for water tiles wherever possible or just wait it out until my cities have grown more in commerce, and build bulbs meanwhile. If I do nothing, I can hold the line only 6 turns more, and there's no sign, that the situation will change soon. Alphabet will be ready in 10 turns. I cannot even imagine how I could finance a 6th city now!

Without huts the problem would be much more direct, my research would had already crippled now. So what? As far I see Ragnar has only 2 cities and he has gold. So this means he would overran me soon in research.

By the side: My cities are all connected for now.

_________________

Many questions. I stop for now and appeciate your feedback on the different little questions. Thanks for all feedback until here. Maybe this can be my best game as Prince with all these new information. Let's learn as much as possible to achieve a very fast win.

By the side:
Assuming that my position is on a clear victory path, what would you do to get a fast win? What would you focus on in research after alphabet? Can it be intelligent to bribe my neighbors into war with my tech advance? Ragnar will surely accept.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You have access to copper, yes ?
If you want to be extra safe, you can whip an axe in 2 turns (sorry me no conosco les nombres pour l'epic speed).
Maximize the overflow hammers, overflow to complete the Great Lighthouse. (It's alright to work all FIN coast for a turn if that's needed.)
Don't whip too early, or you'll lose production. Whip when you need the axe.

Whipping Wonders is never advisable (because there is a malus). Setting up whips to overflow into wonders can work.


What next ?
You shouldn't crop your pictures. You may want to point out some information but it also hides some other, that could be useful to us.
Alphabet is a very real tech target. After that, The Great Library, Civil Service or Philosophy could all be debattable.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Economical Question aside:

Now, with 5 cities i have balance +-0 with only 20% research. How would you manage that short-term, to get minimum until alphabet? I could run scientists, go for water tiles wherever possible or just wait it out until my cities have grown more in commerce, and build bulbs meanwhile. If I do nothing, I can hold the line only 6 turns more, and there's no sign, that the situation will change soon. Alphabet will be ready in 10 turns. I cannot even imagine how I could finance a 6th city now!

This is a very real question and, with experience, you will learn to anticipate on that (maybe ^^).
First, it's only the raw output that matters. The % of research is meaningless.
Then, the situation you want to avoid in the early game is the following :
- Having no commerce, no way to tech up and only units to build (which will raise the maintenance and prevent from teching up).
^ This is the fail.
Now :
- Expansion, when timed correctly (and Prince difficulty is quite forgiving in that matter), provides opportunities for commerce and, therefore, ways to tech up.
If you're feeling you're close to a fail (aka bankrupcy), then all you need to do is :
Maximize commerce and tech up. The mind state is : recovery mode.
This means not settling new cities - you're quite right in that matter -, growing your existing cities to maximum size and working as many commerce tiles as possible (cottages). You'll worry about food later, when you'll have happiness and a need for production.

Note that : this is an unusual scenario with very few neighbours, hence "trade partners".
In most maps, the answer would be : "grow a Great Person, bulb a tech (Philosophy), and trade it to achieve tech parity."
Here, you have to do it by yourself, so happy cap and cottages are the way.

When you get to the crucial mass you need of tech/and/or/commerce that you need, you will be able to resume your expansion. The GLH may solve it all by itself, I have no idea.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Devoting 2 workers to improve the silver
vs
Devoting 2 workers to chop the GLH

Is also debattable.
This is what the game is about. Priorities. Trade-offs.

 

[konata_LS]

[...] Archers if you're desperate) with Catapults to bombard down city defences,[...]

Your comments have plenty sense of humour and remind me of an Archers + sieges attack

Spoiler Archers + Construction rush at Deity :

From 19:26, attack with a stack of Hwachas and Archers. As you described, "desperate" .

Admittedly, that cooked map is indeed difficult. Without metal, no horse, Archers may become a solution before HBR, under such extremely tough situation.

 

[dontworryabouttsunami]

Round 104:

I managed to get a barbarian city at the coast. It wouldn't be my long-term best position, but it's okay. 3 resources in inner ring doesn't need fast expansion.

View attachment 612504

Kind of an offhand point but I think that's an awesome city. It has three strong tiles all in the first ring, every tile is green and it has lots of forest to boot. It would be nicer with a river but it's still very good.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Thanks altogether!

I plan this strategy next moves:
- Consolidate, buildup cities for more pop, creating more huts or using sea tiles or scientists
- Starting foreign trade as soon as possible
- Go into MC for the UB (extra gold, production and 1 happiness!) and thenafter Colossus
- Thenafter go into Currency

Or would you focus Great library instead of Colossusus?
I will try to finance that all with failgold, e.g. oracle

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

You have access to copper, yes ?
If you want to be extra safe, you can whip an axe in 2 turns (sorry me no conosco les nombres pour l'epic speed).
Maximize the overflow hammers, overflow to complete the Great Lighthouse. (It's alright to work all FIN coast for a turn if that's needed.)
Don't whip too early, or you'll lose production. Whip when you need the axe.

Whipping Wonders is never advisable (because there is a malus). Setting up whips to overflow into wonders can work

Good idea. This helps with 3 aspects:
- Getting much more (9 more)
- Whipping correctly and using overflow
- Using the whip again (cap has no malus anymore)
- Keeping the border save

I calculated, using skirmishers will not be better. Ax needs 52, I get 5 and can whip 2 citizen to 90. That's nearly one complete citizen as overflow!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I calculated, using skirmishers will not be better. Ax needs 52, I get 5 and can whip 2 citizen to 90. That's nearly one complete citizen as overflow!

Yes, you get it right
Maximizing overflow is not always useful but it can be when you want to overflow into a larger item (like a wonder, or 1-turn a military unit).


Most of the time, it would be correct to mind more the timing of your whip than the otherflow : what tiles are you working ? what tiles do you want to work/whip ? So, food and happy cap are the variables you would surveil and control.
e.g. : whipping and spending 2 turns to regrow vs whipping 1 turn before regrowth : the latter is likely the better choice (unless working food negative tiles).

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

1.5. Resumption: After the war: City and research expanding

Situation in round 119.

OK, I did it two times: Whipped an axe and thenafter an galley in the cap just to give overflow into GLH. It's ready.

That gives a solid 8 all-in-all.
I used the situation to whip in every city and changed civic to tribalism just to save money. Spiritual as thanks. In approximately 20 turns I will switch back, meanwhile chopping granarys and librarys, building huts and maybe bulbs. So whipping everywhere at once can save me some money

I am back at 30%, producing just 15 bulbs anymore. But alphabet is ready in 3 and I am sure, I can soon come back to 30 bulbs, when the cities has regrown. I build huts and chop in Surys Cap and the other small town there, chopping a worker in the barb city. So this can consolidate. I hope, it was a good way to deal with the economic situation.

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I get learnt Brennus (Founder of judaism) and Darius (Founder of Hinduism). Darius has some Ivory. I traded for my horses, seeing that I need none the next turns and needing the additionyl happiness. Now, when silver is connected. I have +2 happiness, cities can rise to pop 6-7.

My workboat is now searching for more people.

Ragnar is without any religion. What do you think: Should I bribe him with techs to attack Darius?

I am rookie in diplomacy. I know, Darius is the worst enemy of Brennus and Ragnar. What will happen, when I trade with him? (he has alphabet too)

After alphabet I traded Writing and Fishing to get Meditation and Agriculture from Brennus, giving me a -1 to Darius, cause worst enemy. Let's begin with the last planned farm now

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What would you do in tech?

Go for priesthood, try oracle and CoL to found a religion - or focus on MC and Colossus? Or another option?
I decided for focussing CoL, not trying oracle, building research instead. Und look: In Suris Cap it was founded in turn 138.

 

[5tephen]

Not a direct answer but BUG mod is really excellent for helping with diplomacy. It changes the user interface a bit to include information that is already available to you but tedious to find without it. For example, when an AI starts plotting war on you or another AI, assuming there is a second AI you could theoretically ask them to attack they will no longer offer that because “we have enough on our hands right now” but to save you the effort of going into the menu each turn to see if this is the case, a red fist will come up next to their name on the scoreboard to let you know they are plotting war. As it doesn’t affect gameplay rules you could install it now and keep playing your current save.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Not a direct answer but BUG mod is really excellent for helping with diplomacy. It changes the user interface a bit to include information that is already available to you but tedious to find without it. For example, when an AI starts plotting war on you or another AI, assuming there is a second AI you could theoretically ask them to attack they will no longer offer that because “we have enough on our hands right now” but to save you the effort of going into the menu each turn to see if this is the case, a red fist will come up next to their name on the scoreboard to let you know they are plotting war. As it doesn’t affect gameplay rules you could install it now and keep playing your current save.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/

Mhh... when I get to know they are plotting war, which I wouldn't know otherwise, shouldn't I think it as cheating?

 

[AcaMetis]

That's the beauty of BUG mod: It only tells you an AI is plotting war if you could find out that information yourself. In this case getting that information relies in being able to ask an AI about being bribed to go to war with another AI - if they refuse because "We have enough on our hands right now", they're plotting war (and by the way, if you ever see WHEOOHRN on the forum, that's what that's referring to). If you can't ask about that, for whatever reason (no valid targets to ask about, the AI refuses to talk to you, etc.), BUG won't tell you whether that AI is plotting war. It's not cheating, it's saving you the micromanagement of going through the list of AIs every turn and checking whether they're plotting war manually. Nothing more.

 

[5tephen]

The point is you would know it but you'd have to go into the trade screen each turn to check if "we have enough on our hands right now" is given as a reason for not being able to bribe into war. It presents information that is available to you in a much easier format. As another example if you go into Darius trade screen now it should give you a list of cities he could theoretically trade to you if he wanted so you know he has that many cities plus one (his capital which he cannot trade under any circumstance.) BUG takes this information and puts it in a city count next to the AIs name which is much less effort to follow.

Edit: Sorry for the cross post with AcaMetis

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Ahhh.... I saw it for myself. Well, I am in round 154 now.

There's Brennus, founder of judaism, next to Huanya Capac, founder of buddhism, next to Darius, founder of Hinduism. I founded Confizionism, but decided not to convert. I have no border with anyone, want to settle some islands first to broaden my commerce network.

But the question is still interesting: When should I bribe someone into war? When I bribe them against Darius, I risk to lose my Ivory. I have monarchy now, but I seem to be a bit planless, how I could go further.

Convert to Confuzionism yes/no?
Preparing war or settling the middle islands first for commerce?
Going for a gold city in my home continent and setting palace there?
Or just trying to finish my great scientist and building an academy?
Is the research okay for the aim to achieve fast victory or too low?

I am mostly isolated in the western area and could settle peaceful.

What would you do?