[BTS] I want to improve my early game with your advices

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Wet rice is 1 better than farmed FP and takes fewer turns to improve + 2 extra commerce from settling dye + lots of river + forests make it a good location. You need a good reason to walk away from it. Swapping wet rice and 2 for a floodplain or two simply loses you 2 per turn (wet rice + grassland farm provide the same 6 surplus as two farmed floodplains) and you will need more workerturns to farm floodplains.

Yeah, that was my wrong assumption. Good we restarted.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I'd probably settle "Fippy's site".
Not having to tech AH is a great bonus, as your previous map has shown. It "frees up" the tech path.
Settling on riverside dyes will mean that the cap will produce 3C/t from the get go, which is also a very real bonus.

Rice and hilled pigs are comparable tiles (except the pigs can be mined), as far as food surplus goes.
Food surplus is the variable you should look at, when looking at a capital's quality (Your last cap was quite poor - I'd want some 10+ food surplus to start considering my capital rich).
Faster development (2H city tile/resources in first ring) vs long term power is a different question, that has been mentionned in this thread (and a difficult question to answer). As Anysense pointed out, Earlier is most often Better (Anysense offered a lot of very sensible advice altogether).

Reminder : the early game is always a race. You need to do as much as you can, so that you can highroll, or catapult, or snowball into the mid-game and crush them all.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

So okay, we will settle on the dye.

___________________

What do we do?

Warrior:
Scouting around the city area (clockwise, cause we need to know, whether a city spot, which shares the wet rice, is possible)

Worker:
Will improve rice first and floodplain thenafter, both with farms

Research:
Agriculture -> Bronze working -> Pottery

City:
Worker -> Warrior -> Worker (or settler?)
This way we build next Worker/Settler at pop 3.

You share my thoughts?

 

[Gumbolt]

Worker, warriors to size 2, settler. Use chops for settler. That or grow to size 4 and 2 pop whip settler. You only have 1 decent food resource. How long to grow to size 4 with farm? 10-12 turn settler vs whipped settler with 1-2 chops?

Tech looks fine. Unless you want AH earlier. Think BW is more important.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

2.1. First land improvements

Round 21:

This is the known world: We see 3 dye, 1 gold, 1 gems, 1 pigs, 1 bananas and 1 copper. The rice is connected soon.
The map doesn't make the decision about where to settle easy.

Settling tiles:
A1, A2 are a good next choice. They could need an farm-upgraded floodplain to grow faster
A1 is at a river, i favorite that.
B1 is an idea for getting copper soon, but needs expansion for getting it.
C1 or C2 are spots for later. When I want to connect them directly I need to settle on bananas (C2), when I want a real food source I need o settle without connecting. Settling here brings gems and later spices, but needs ironworking.

_____________________

How to grow as fast as possible?

The city grows to 2. It grows faster than I can develop the land. This leads to timing think-ups:

Variant 1:
The worker is now at the forest west of city. He can chop that to get a second worker. Thenafter building up the farm on the floodplains and on the dye after that. The settler is created after the worker.

Variant 2a:
Like variant 1, but the worker is whipped, thenafter progress with building warriors until city reaches back size 2. The 2 workers will build floodplain.

Variant 2b:
Like variant 1, but the worker is whipped, thenafter progress with building warriors until city reaches back size 2. The 2 workers will prechop the forest tiles.

Variant 3:
We go for settler directly, first chop forest, then chop another one and maybe whip. The new city will be without warrior at first.

Variant 4:
We go for settler too, but only chop one forest, then buildup the floodplain (which will be needed by the second city directly, when I take A1). Maybe we whip.

____________________

I feel best with Variant 2. What do you think?
Really building settler first before we are capable to work the land?

Research: The game showed already, that I prepare for AH now. Our worker will need tat soon. Hunting, Fishing or Pottery could be debatable too. Fishing is a good solution, when cap rises on size 4, but cottaging seems better. Hunting is for archery and savon bulbs for AH.

What would you research?

____________________

Foreign relations:

Boudicca seen at the south, Gilga at the north. Both are no easy targets at first. Result: This game will be harder than a normal Prince game.

 

[AcaMetis]

Are there existing desert river tiles, which are not floodplains?

None that naturally generate on normal map scripts. If a city settles on a floodplain it will turn into a desert river tile (floodplains are tile features, like forests, which get removed when a city settles on it), but otherwise you won't see a regular riverside desert tile

 

[dontworryabouttsunami]

Without commenting on build order, your city locations are much better this time. A1 and A2 are both fine, the one on the river probably preferred, as you noted. B1 is good too. C1 is OK, maybe 1W would be better -- you can maybe get the Spice later with the floodplains nearby, if Gilga doesn't get it first. C2 is not really an option, I don't think -- you usually don't want to settle on a 5F tile. You might need those Bananas to feed the Gems if there's no other food in the area.

 

[lymond]

MoI - Just a quick bit of advice after glancing at these posts. FOOD is King in this game. Never move away from it.

Assuming settling on dye, a city 1W of pigs would be good - given what we've seen.

edit: ah..missed some posts. A1 spot may be better just to get gold online faster, which is of great benefit early.

Other dye can be farmed or cottaged early. Personally, I prefer farming a tile like that.

Not sure you need another worker yet if I'm reading correctly. I recommend chopping forest your on into settler. Move to forest 1E of Tim and chop that into settler, then you can farm the dye. Continue growth on warrior.

 

[Gumbolt]

A1 looks pretty good. Grabs 3 flood plains. Gold and the pigs. B1 can always move 1W. Banana site is heavily restricted by jungle so can wait.

My usual start on immortal is worker, warriors, then double settler. Then new city can often help whip or build worker with a chop. If your whipping your capital early 2nd worker not super critical.

You really don't need city defenders early on. Learn to use warriors to fog bust

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

So, here we are at round 32:

I chose to do, what lymond said.

I settled A1 and let the worker farm the dye. This way the new city can use the floodplain and the old city can use the dye after growing to 2 again. After it has grown to 2, I build worker again, which I plan to whip, not to chop. The free worker will build the Pasture.

I decided for Pottery, for granary and cottages.
What would you do with the floodplains? Cottage 'em or farm 'em?

Thinking "growth is everything" would mean to farm is better, but a cottaged floodplain is very strong longterm and starts here with 3C. My guts are saying: "Cottage it".
What would you say?


Now, we have to answer 3 questions now:

1) When do we want to build the second settler? I would say, directly after the second worker and regrowth to pop2.
2) Where should we place the 3rd city? I would take B1 or 1N of it. In turn 50 this city could use the floodplain west of Djenne
3) What should the workers do in witch sequence? I would build the pasture next and after the next worker has finished, we have to see further.

One warrior is scouting the east now. If there's a better place, maybe with elephants or very food-rich, I would consider to settle there, defending with skirmishers.

Edit: It was eaten by a strong team of an bear and a lion. Rest in peace, my friend.

___________________________

Most of the next turns are straightforward, when we accept building the second worker is the best after regrowth: Now round 39.

We need to decide, what the worker and the worker #2 will do: I would say, cottage the floodplain, but it's possible to mine the gold too or to farm the floodplain. Maybe the worker could chop the forest NW of Djenne to make this process faster.

Additionally we need to decide, what Djenne will build. I would say, an worker. Timbuktu needs regrowing and thenafter should build a settler, right?

I chose Writing as next tech, so it would be possible to build lib too because of the massive commerce of 16 in cap (after regrowing). Only drawback: There's nothing really good to research with these crappy tiles. Best would be maybe hunting/archery and thenafter ironworking to get known more about the map. When I plan to take copper or to expand Djenne to the oasis, Mysticism can be a thought worth.

Cap will expand in 11 turns.

 

[dontworryabouttsunami]

You should prioritize the special (resource) tiles. That pig is a much stronger tile than the Dye farm and should have been improved first (if you had the technology already). For the same reason, the next improvement you should make is mining the Gold. After that, cottaging the floodplain is probably best because you've improved all your special tiles. Two workers should be plenty, no need to build another one in Djenne. Build a granary. Then I would probably grow Timbuktu and work cottages there while whipping and chopping more Settlers in Djenne (try to keep working the Pig and Gold there, any excess pop can be whipped, but try to whip at least 2 pop at a time (need 4 or high population)).

I would say that one Worker can mine the Gold for Djenne and the other can build cottages in Timbuktu (starting with the floodplain).

Edit: Also it's usually not advised to research Iron Working yourself, at least on higher difficulties. Even at Monarch it's usually better to research Alphabet and trade for Iron Working (because IW is so expensive).

 

[lymond]

I would say that one Worker can mine the Gold for Djenne and the other can build cottages in Timbuktu (starting with the floodplain).

Good point, but chopping should still take priority after specials are improved.

Also, MoI, Tim should grow now. Whipping at this point should be 4>2 (basic rule of thumb is don't whip off specials, or primarily food specials. Farmed dye is not really a "special in that sense, but it's a very nice combined yield so I'd try to always have that worked, plus the later FP cottage - by either city)

B1 could go onto the PH 1N instead, since copper is a strong tile on its own. This is counter to the usual food first idea, but it's an odd location anyway otherwise.

Post saves, including the start. (edit: ah..I found the start)

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

So the western floodplain should be farmed after settling the 3rd city, right?

When would you research Mystics to get the other food source and the oasis? Or would you just trade that too?

So let me summarize:
You would let both cities grow to size 4 before going for the next settler, right? Is there any case, where one won't whip a settler in such a starting situation?

After your feedback my plan would be:

Timbuktu: Chopping the granary, thenafter chopping the library, doing regularly whips where pop doesn't fall under 2. Would you whip again before cooldown is 0 ?

Djenne: Developing gold, thenafter chopping granary and settler and thenafter building road to the gold. Whipping the granary, when pop hits 3, then regrow to 3. While the settler is built, use the floodplain(s), which are soon fully available.

Right?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Here's the actual save:

 

[Pangaea]

Minor point perhaps, but your slider has gone down to 90%. Once the first city has been settled, it's a good idea to use what is called binary research: either run the slider at 0% or 100%. It reduces rounding errors. I've gotten the habit of doing this for the entire game, but it's most important early on when we are working with low numbers.

Based off the above picture, your cities appear to have decent enough food, so I'd cottage the floodplain instead of farming it. FP cottages are great, and it also takes two turns less than farming it. 7 turns is a heavy investment so early in the game. And you just get +1 to show for it. The cottage there can also be shared between both cities, which is nice if you need to swap things around due to whipping or whatever.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I read about Binary Research and came to the point that it's relatively negligible and sometimes maybe a bit dangerous (AI demands). The most effect will be to set the slider down before getting a research upgrade building and thenafter running at 100% again. So this applys here to my planned library. I need to think about it.

Here's my source:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/binary-research-or-not.447498/page-2

When you have another better source, I would read more about it to come to a deeper understanding.

_____________

Another ideas about my plans ahead?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Same plan, same turn :

Spoiler :

What I did different is that I chopped 3 forests after improving the rice.
I grew Timbuktu to size 3 and whipped the settler 3->2. Growth was halted for 1 turn as the first chop came in (so as to chop into the settler). 2nd chop allowed to whip the settler for Djenne at 70H/100.
The worker stayed by Timbuktu for a 3rd chop, that quickened the 2nd worker at size 2.

I hope this illustrates how chopping compares to farming grassland.
Not sure how this goes, next. The priority is getting the next settler and another worker.
Maybe Djenne is best suited to build the settler (double chop) and Timbuktu should whip a worker from 3 to 2. Ignore the desert gold tile for the moment, in that case. It itsn't even really a good tile, compared to a FIN riverside cottage, to begin with (its value comes more from the extra happiness it provides than the tile's yield).
Production is what you need, not commerce ; the loss of production/food from working the gold would be more detrimental than the gain in commerce. Having a single food special per city is restricting the production, here. (Which should emphasize the importance of chops.)

Regards.

 

[Gumbolt]

Binary will save you research. E.g if you plan an academy. Saving gold before this or a library will help you gain science. As any saved gold will allow you more science with the 50% bonus.

Same for techs. At times it's useful to save gold to see what tech ai might choose. E.g music or lib race. Why start researching if you might lose race?

If you constantly research at 40% it could take ages to research one tech. If you crash your economy due to rapid expansion running science at 10-20% makes no sense.

Sure you can run scientists but better to save gold and use it for good use.

When does the ai ever demand gold?

 

[AcaMetis]

When does the ai ever demand gold?

In my case, every time a vaguely warmonger-y AI and/or Joao are in the game. I don't think I've played a non-iso game without getting my entire treasury demanded/DoWed on over a refused demand yet.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think as a warmonger i tend to have little gold. When i do i rarely hand it over. Can't remember the last gold demand i ever had.

Mostly get tech demands or resources. Wonder how the demand mechanism works?