[BTS] I want to improve my early game with your advices

Nick723

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You should be safe from gold demands until someone has currency?

In my experience the main issue with binary research is forgetting to turn it back on :shifty:
 
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Pangaea

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That thread is 10 years old, and still essentially only has pros for binary research. I find it's a nice habit due to the advantages talked about in there. Demands will come whether you have gold or techs, so you just have to deal with it there and then. Sure, it hurts if it's a super aggressive AI and you can't afford a war right now, but that is the case if an AI demands an expensive or important tech too.

If the only benefit was the option of changing research depending on trade options, I'd still use it. It's so nice to be able to change techs to what you truly need. Kinda sucks to be half way through a tech that becomes available in trade, but then not have the money to research something else because you had the slider at 60% or whatever all the time. I like the adaptability.
 

lymond

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When does the ai ever demand gold?
It's not that uncommon at all in my experience. Like you, I tend to use my gold, but I may have some turns when I have an abundance after some trades or a GM mission. Certain AIs with high demand thresholds like Monty or Joao might demand it, if not Pleased. (I actually wonder if Monty even does this a Pleased) Sitting Bull might demand gold.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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Update on the learning curve:

I played a game of the Nobles club recently, at monarch difficulty and had won it easily at 1862 by conquest, having infantery before all others. The map is quite interesting, cause you find no copper in the near and no horses, which can be scaring. Here, if you want to give a look at it:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-285-mansa-musa-of-mali.673250/

Nontheless I won because of your advices here about

- building a compact empire
- priorizing food and counting green tiles
- applying binary research
- chopping much more than I did before
- more planning with rivers, roads and traderoutes

It seems, that with your hints I am now at a solid monarch level, maybe I should try emperor?
Because of that growth, this Prince game above won't give me anything to play further.

Thanks to @BornInCantaloup for showing an alternative way for the early begins. So it can be better to whip not that early.

__________________

Well, it seems, that I need to switch to other leaders, cause Manny begins to bore me now.

What did I like at Mansa?

(1) Starts with mining and wheel, which makes BW easy achievable.
(I played Huanya recently and saw, he needs a complete other way to play with. Without wheel pottery is a much longer way, meaning less commerce, even though he is financial)

(2) Spiritual makes it really easy to change things, like building buildings (OR, Universal Suffrage, Slavery) vs. building units (Vassalage, Theocracy, Slavery) vs. researching things and develop in commerce (Emancipation/caste, Free Speech, Free Religion).

(3) Being financial is extremely strong. Combined with the colossus or even when building huts on river tiles, this trait skyrocket the research.

(4) The UU is massive strong. Not for offensive, but for defensive and barb management. Just settle and build skirmishers regularly. This way you are not attackable and need copper/iron later for own attacks. The UB is okay. I built it in my production citys, thenafter in every else later.

___________________

I want to change leader now to another financial one. Let's take Huayna Capac now.
 

AcaMetis

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You really ought to try playing with less good leaders if you're interested in testing whether you're really able to consistently win on a given difficulty. HC especially is the singular most atypical leader to play as by a country mile and a half, a game played as him translates to any other leader only vaguely at best.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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3. Random game: Huayna Capac - much slower development!

Huge size, 18 civs, Fractal, huts/events off

Huayna Capac
(Industrious, Financial)

1.0. Starting situation:

upload_2021-10-28_18-3-14.png


Two food resources and a floodplain, which could be cottaged! Well, that's my game. Potential starting spots:

A) SIP: Settling at the plains, which will be useless long time
B) 1S : Reaching the floodplain and maybe getting more grasslands in the west
C) 1SE : Getting +1H, staying more secure in cap

I decided to move Quechua 1SW:

upload_2021-10-28_18-6-53.png


Nothing interesting. We decide for variant 3, settling 1SE. Quechua shall look around the river and thenafter the north (clockwise around starting spot) to look for spots for the second city:

Whoho! One additional pig:

upload_2021-10-28_18-9-5.png


Starting is clear:

Worker -> Quechua
AH -> Mining -> BW

And here's the problem #1 with Huayna. Not only that I need to copy and paste his name everytime, cause I don't remember the spelling *cough*
He cannot chop! He cannot whip! He can do nothing of the fun things at start. He even cannot build a fast cottage, cause he needs wheels for that and have none. Mansa was quite easier in this fact.

How would you play Huayna ?

______________________

I think the start is straightforward:

- Developed corn, then cow (cause I built settler and cow give additionally 1C), then pig
- Build Quechuas until city reaches size 3, then settler

Here's turn 24:

upload_2021-10-28_18-17-37.png


upload_2021-10-28_18-17-54.png


I am in the north, Montezuma seems to be in the east, Pacal in the south. I can build 3 cities easily.
Remember: I setup 18 civs on huge, so it could be dense populated, haha!

The potential city spots are A,B, C or D.

________________

Spot A: sharing the corn, after building monument and researching hunting getting fur.

upload_2021-10-28_18-20-54.png


Spot B: this or 1N, depending how fast I need it. It's a coastal city with clam, later wine and spices. Should be a production city at first, with 1 boat, 1 farm and some mines.

upload_2021-10-28_18-23-23.png


Spots C or D are my favorite for the second city:

C starts directly with the shared pig, gets gold and stone. This way I could go for pyramids. I could build them directly at spot C or in capital.
D starts with food and is at a coast. It can get stone later (but I should build monument directly. The unknown area seems to be a hill and grasslands.


upload_2021-10-28_18-24-9.png



What would you do?

Now its turn 24. In 9 turns settler will be ready, in 14 turns BW.
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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Edit: Here's a thought.

When I want to build pyramids, I need masonry to start and wheel to transport the stones. This means, I need many turns for that, so many, that D can complete the monument and expand, while I still work for the requirements. Maybe it can be interesting to mine the gold first before the yummy wet corn to get more research and build the monument faster.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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You can give me feedback about my thoughts in the last posting, but I think, my way to do it was quite straightforward.

I thought, that stonehenge could be a solution. And how it cames, a copper is right at home, on the best hill, I had previously mined. Lucky lucky lucky...

So, whats the state?
- We have BW and go for masonry now
- We have stonehenge
- We have a farm at spot D

upload_2021-10-28_18-50-6.png


After Quechua in cap we will build workers to chop the pyramids. Second city will switch to mine the gold for faster research, cause wheel and masonry need 18 moves from now on... this way we need a good workforce to get the stones soon.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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It worked:

upload_2021-10-28_19-3-44.png


upload_2021-10-28_19-4-1.png


I didn't apply slavery yet. But in 8 turns pyramids are ready, this way I can apply representation and slavery same time.

____________

Thenafter we need to talk about the threats:

upload_2021-10-28_19-6-56.png


Monte in the east. He has limited space, so he could attack soon. I am his only victim. He is founder of hinduism.


And Julius in the south, neighbor of Pacal, maybe he will convert soon. He has elephants. Let's take up defence soon. But I am sure, the pyramids are a really solid early advantage. Now we need to build our army. Barracks are on the way. Maybe we can attack Monte before he even thinks about plotting. Let's get axes up!
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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So, pyramids are finished, copper is on. I do a break now and let you comment my game so far.

Here's the global situation:

upload_2021-10-28_19-24-49.png


The spots A,B,C are interesting. All of them are usable cause of stonehenge. So we can settle, build some farms and use the ood source after 10 rounds.

Spot C is my favorite for the 3rd city:
Blocking sitting bull and caesar (west and south) on a hill, getting wine, sheep and copper. Solid production location.

Spot A is my second favorite, but it bears the danger of an early war with Monte. But do I need to be scary about that? I didn't saw Monte having copper. So I take some axes, build walls (thanks to my stone) and he has no chance.

Spot B will be a nice commerce place later, but can setup production too.

It seems that I don't have really strong commerce city sites, except of my capital. It could be interesting to build GLH or colossus, or minimum to try to build them. I can do it in the eastern city.

Capital can be a strong GP farm. It has already 2 wonders, when I get it over my heart to change towns to farms, hehe.
Spot C can, when I can settle it, be the Heroic Epic place, where I setup farms and mines everywhere.

________________

So, break now. I appreciate your comments about the game so far :)

(Bear in mind, that's my first Monarch game with a new leader)
 

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Master_Of_Ideas

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What do you think about closing the open borders to Monte after we got known about him? This way we can prevent him from contacting others, mean we prevent him from easy techtrading. I plan alphabet next, cause the other techs are not interesting. I would share some of mine to get the old techs.

Seems that I am tech leader again, and this at monarch with needing much time for pyramidsand having nearly no commerce at starting location. The gold mine seems to be very strong in aspects of tech.leadership.
 
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Master_Of_Ideas

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You really ought to try playing with less good leaders if you're interested in testing whether you're really able to consistently win on a given difficulty. HC especially is the singular most atypical leader to play as by a country mile and a half, a game played as him translates to any other leader only vaguely at best.

You are right. I am a bit astonished, that monarch is becoming so easy actually, like prince before just for changing some things. I even restarted some games in the Rhyes and Fall scenario, where I had formlerly problems with, and beat the Egypt and Chinese Unique Goals with ease now (at monarch).

Well... I will play 1-2 games with HC and switching then again.

Thought about playing the 18civ-worldscenario. Is there any civ, which can be an interesting challenge?

I don't want to play the philosophical leaders now, cause I haven't understood the GP usage enough. But the other ones, where you can apply a CE, are okay.
 

Gumbolt

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You are playing Incans and you built SH? Why? The Terrace gives you 2 culture a turn. Do you really want a lot of great priests? 4 workers and a stack load of forest left.

Overall expansion too slow here. You could of built 4 cities and still got mids by this date.

Food is king. You could of been whipping that capital for settlers and using OF to put in wonders. food and land are key on larger maps. You should of done chops into Mids instead of slow build.

At present you are playing to try and beat monarch. If this was immortal you would be struggling.

A without food looks bad.
B Same albeit you have copper. Clams is nice for commerce and food. You would be losing plains tiles for 1f3c sea tiles. Eventually 2f3c with lighthouse.
C Looks reasonable.
D. If you plan on building cottages a helper city 1E of the copper near capital may be useful. Has the pigs too.
E. 1NE of the eastern pigs might long term grab the corn.

You are using a thread for help but you are posting before anyone can even respond. I count 7 posts with no response. :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:

I would have a game you play off thread and keep the games on thread till you get advice. You seem to be quitting games pretty quickly here which might put some off. Winning Monarchy by early 1826ad is mot a huge win.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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Your playing Incans and you built SH? Why? The Terrace gives you 2 culture a turn. Do you really want a lot of great priests? 4 workers and a stack load of forest left.

It was a situational decision. With SH I could reach the stones earlier to build the pyramids. So I needed SH for pyramids.

Overall expansion too slow here. You could of built 4 cities and still got mids by this date.
Can you explain how you would had done it? Which would be the alternative to my way?

I needed all the workers to buildup the line to the stone and connecting the gold. Now I shift them to the woods and preparing 1-2 settlers and the library.

Food is king. You could of been whipping that capital for settlers and using OF to put in wonders. food and land are key on larger maps.
At present you are playing to try and beat monarch. If this was immortal you would be struggling.

This would be interesting. Do you know a way to replay a map on a higher difficulty? The game seems to be straight-forward and alternative-less.

A without food looks bad.
B Same albeit you have copper. Clams is nice for commerce and food. You would be losing plains tiles for 1f3c sea tiles. Eventually 2f3c with lighthouse.
C Looks reasonable.
D. If you plan on building cottages a helper city 1E of the copper near capital may be useful. Has the pigs too.
E. 1NE of the eastern pigs might long term grab the corn.

A gets food after 10 turns. So it's not the fastest, but can connect horses and fur easily. How would you connect the fur? Or would you ignore it?
B is same. SH gives the oppurtunity to just need to wait 10 turns, build up a small farm / cottage meanwhile to make use of the time and thenafter having a solid position. I actually don't see why it's necessary to hurry, when the main factor of growth comes from the activated citys at south and when we can expand by killing Monte. Doesn't a city can stay semi-productive for 10 turns before it starts to grow fast?

I would appreciate to see a savegame, where you are at the same turn, but significantly stronger. I would like to learn about the alternatives, cause I don't see 'em actually and how they work.

Your playing a thread for help but your posting before anyone can even respond. I count 7 posts with no response. :crazyeye::crazyeye::crazyeye:
I would have a game you play off thread and keep the games on thread till you get advice. You seem to be quitting games pretty quickly here which might put some off. Winning Monarchy by early 1826ad is mot a huge win.

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I quit the games after I see, that it would be too easy and is just a matter of time to win. This thread should concentrate on real challenges and learnings, not on playing boring games without challenge. So Prince is not really the difficulty anymore.

Again, I would be interested about the details, how & when pro-gamers would take other decisions. The complete story above I don't see an alternative to very fast connecting stones and build pyramids in record-time.
 

AcaMetis

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This would be interesting. Do you know a way to replay a map on a higher difficulty? The game seems to be straight-forward and alternative-less.
You can use a T0 save to create scenarios of varying difficulty levels, like NC does, but it takes a bit of effort and messing about with external files to get that to work. If you're playing games to try and learn it's easier to just roll up a new map, since straightforward situations aren't necessarily ideal past the basics anyway.

I would appreciate to see a savegame, where you are at the same turn, but significantly stronger. I would like to learn about the alternatives, cause I don't see 'em actually and how they work.
I think your best bet here is to check NC topics, see if anyone posted a save at a comfortable turn and play the map yourself to that point if so. From there you can compare games, even read about people's playthroughs and get some insight as to how got to where they did, and why.

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I quit the games after I see, that it would be too easy and is just a matter of time to win. This thread should concentrate on real challenges and learnings, not on playing boring games without challenge. So Prince is not really the difficulty anymore.
That's the thing, though - HC with Mids, Copper and Gold is already not a challenge. With Mids you're at no risk of falling behind in tech, Copper will keep Monty and his 5:strength: UU swords well at bay, and Fin+gold means your economy is basically secure. I really do have to recommend playing a different, weaker leader, someone like Toku or Charly, if you're interested in improving your gameplay. HC with nearby Gold and Stone will forgive so many mistakes you won't even notice them, but Toku with a plains cow and a dream? Different story.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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Overall expansion too slow here. You could of built 4 cities and still got mids by this date.

Because you engage me in settling faster:
Can you give me a good rule of thump, how many cities I should have at a special date?

So how many 1000 BC, how many 1 AD, how many 500 AD ?
And when you settle standard-locations with just 1 food, how many grasstiles should the city have for being well-placed and not just spam because of the number?

________________

I still keep on settling at A. Monte has settled 1NW of the corn, NOO of the pig. I think about conquering this city, keeping it and building at A another one. This sums up to 6 planned citys. Additional there would be 1 at the coast and the other 2 cities of Monte. I have a Great Priest, which can let me build the shrine at Montes capital.

Monte has copper, means axes, but has limited space and no good research. So maybe I will overcome him when I begin to build a bigger army of axes. And thenafter 10 cities are quite easily reachable.
 

Master_Of_Ideas

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I think your best bet here is to check NC topics, see if anyone posted a save at a comfortable turn and play the map yourself to that point if so. From there you can compare games, even read about people's playthroughs and get some insight as to how got to where they did, and why.

That's the thing, though - HC with Mids, Copper and Gold is already not a challenge. With Mids you're at no risk of falling behind in tech, Copper will keep Monty and his 5:strength: UU swords well at bay, and Fin+gold means your economy is basically secure. I really do have to recommend playing a different, weaker leader, someone like Toku or Charly, if you're interested in improving your gameplay. HC with nearby Gold and Stone will forgive so many mistakes you won't even notice them, but Toku with a plains cow and a dream? Different story.

That can be an idea for the next one. What about conquering the world as the japanese at the world map?
Or is it too easy because of the resource-rich situation and a random game would be better?

Maybe, when this game ends, I will try that.

Actually I need some advices in mid-game. I am not sure which midgame techs are strong, which not, what I sould do with my Great People and which buildings should be build to stay effective. I stopped building courthouses for example, but what about the other midgame buildings like harbors, smitheries, marketplaces, universities, observatories or banks? The most advicers say, that is situational. In past I build them nearly everytime, when there is a small sign, e.g. when a city has 20 commerce, every commerce-building. I want this game commented to learn how to get a good measure about what to build and what not.

And I am beginner in espionage and diplomacy, just having experience about space race and domination/conquest so far. So let's see how the game develops.
 

AcaMetis

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The earth map, from what I've seen, is so far removed from any regular map that for learning purposes it's better to go with a standard, random game. I would definitely recommend what I like to call a "final exam" map to see if you've really..."mastered" is not the right word, but if you can be confident in calling yourself a Prince (or other difficulty) level player - Toku, random Fractal map, standard settings, no overpowered starts (if you happen to roll double wet corn and double gems, spoilers, even Toku isn't enough to make that start a challenge. Low odds of that happening, though, of course). Obviously what map you roll will heavily influence how hard the map actually is, but that's just Civ IV.txt for you. IMO there's no better test of skill than random Fractal maps as the worst leader, which for most is Toku.
 
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