[BTS] I want to improve my early game with your advices

[Master_Of_Ideas]

What do you think about closing the open borders to Monte after we got known about him? This way we can prevent him from contacting others, mean we prevent him from easy techtrading. I plan alphabet next, cause the other techs are not interesting. I would share some of mine to get the old techs.

Seems that I am tech leader again, and this at monarch with needing much time for pyramidsand having nearly no commerce at starting location. The gold mine seems to be very strong in aspects of tech.leadership.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

You really ought to try playing with less good leaders if you're interested in testing whether you're really able to consistently win on a given difficulty. HC especially is the singular most atypical leader to play as by a country mile and a half, a game played as him translates to any other leader only vaguely at best.

You are right. I am a bit astonished, that monarch is becoming so easy actually, like prince before just for changing some things. I even restarted some games in the Rhyes and Fall scenario, where I had formlerly problems with, and beat the Egypt and Chinese Unique Goals with ease now (at monarch).

Well... I will play 1-2 games with HC and switching then again.

Thought about playing the 18civ-worldscenario. Is there any civ, which can be an interesting challenge?

I don't want to play the philosophical leaders now, cause I haven't understood the GP usage enough. But the other ones, where you can apply a CE, are okay.

 

[Gumbolt]

You are playing Incans and you built SH? Why? The Terrace gives you 2 culture a turn. Do you really want a lot of great priests? 4 workers and a stack load of forest left.

Overall expansion too slow here. You could of built 4 cities and still got mids by this date.

Food is king. You could of been whipping that capital for settlers and using OF to put in wonders. food and land are key on larger maps. You should of done chops into Mids instead of slow build.

At present you are playing to try and beat monarch. If this was immortal you would be struggling.

A without food looks bad.
B Same albeit you have copper. Clams is nice for commerce and food. You would be losing plains tiles for 1f3c sea tiles. Eventually 2f3c with lighthouse.
C Looks reasonable.
D. If you plan on building cottages a helper city 1E of the copper near capital may be useful. Has the pigs too.
E. 1NE of the eastern pigs might long term grab the corn.

You are using a thread for help but you are posting before anyone can even respond. I count 7 posts with no response.

I would have a game you play off thread and keep the games on thread till you get advice. You seem to be quitting games pretty quickly here which might put some off. Winning Monarchy by early 1826ad is mot a huge win.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Your playing Incans and you built SH? Why? The Terrace gives you 2 culture a turn. Do you really want a lot of great priests? 4 workers and a stack load of forest left.

It was a situational decision. With SH I could reach the stones earlier to build the pyramids. So I needed SH for pyramids.

Overall expansion too slow here. You could of built 4 cities and still got mids by this date.

Can you explain how you would had done it? Which would be the alternative to my way?

I needed all the workers to buildup the line to the stone and connecting the gold. Now I shift them to the woods and preparing 1-2 settlers and the library.

Food is king. You could of been whipping that capital for settlers and using OF to put in wonders. food and land are key on larger maps.
At present you are playing to try and beat monarch. If this was immortal you would be struggling.

This would be interesting. Do you know a way to replay a map on a higher difficulty? The game seems to be straight-forward and alternative-less.

A without food looks bad.
B Same albeit you have copper. Clams is nice for commerce and food. You would be losing plains tiles for 1f3c sea tiles. Eventually 2f3c with lighthouse.
C Looks reasonable.
D. If you plan on building cottages a helper city 1E of the copper near capital may be useful. Has the pigs too.
E. 1NE of the eastern pigs might long term grab the corn.

A gets food after 10 turns. So it's not the fastest, but can connect horses and fur easily. How would you connect the fur? Or would you ignore it?
B is same. SH gives the oppurtunity to just need to wait 10 turns, build up a small farm / cottage meanwhile to make use of the time and thenafter having a solid position. I actually don't see why it's necessary to hurry, when the main factor of growth comes from the activated citys at south and when we can expand by killing Monte. Doesn't a city can stay semi-productive for 10 turns before it starts to grow fast?

I would appreciate to see a savegame, where you are at the same turn, but significantly stronger. I would like to learn about the alternatives, cause I don't see 'em actually and how they work.

Your playing a thread for help but your posting before anyone can even respond. I count 7 posts with no response.
I would have a game you play off thread and keep the games on thread till you get advice. You seem to be quitting games pretty quickly here which might put some off. Winning Monarchy by early 1826ad is mot a huge win.

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I quit the games after I see, that it would be too easy and is just a matter of time to win. This thread should concentrate on real challenges and learnings, not on playing boring games without challenge. So Prince is not really the difficulty anymore.

Again, I would be interested about the details, how & when pro-gamers would take other decisions. The complete story above I don't see an alternative to very fast connecting stones and build pyramids in record-time.

 

[AcaMetis]

This would be interesting. Do you know a way to replay a map on a higher difficulty? The game seems to be straight-forward and alternative-less.

You can use a T0 save to create scenarios of varying difficulty levels, like NC does, but it takes a bit of effort and messing about with external files to get that to work. If you're playing games to try and learn it's easier to just roll up a new map, since straightforward situations aren't necessarily ideal past the basics anyway.

I would appreciate to see a savegame, where you are at the same turn, but significantly stronger. I would like to learn about the alternatives, cause I don't see 'em actually and how they work.

I think your best bet here is to check NC topics, see if anyone posted a save at a comfortable turn and play the map yourself to that point if so. From there you can compare games, even read about people's playthroughs and get some insight as to how got to where they did, and why.

Yeah, I know. Sometimes I quit the games after I see, that it would be too easy and is just a matter of time to win. This thread should concentrate on real challenges and learnings, not on playing boring games without challenge. So Prince is not really the difficulty anymore.

That's the thing, though - HC with Mids, Copper and Gold is already not a challenge. With Mids you're at no risk of falling behind in tech, Copper will keep Monty and his 5 UU swords well at bay, and Fin+gold means your economy is basically secure. I really do have to recommend playing a different, weaker leader, someone like Toku or Charly, if you're interested in improving your gameplay. HC with nearby Gold and Stone will forgive so many mistakes you won't even notice them, but Toku with a plains cow and a dream? Different story.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Overall expansion too slow here. You could of built 4 cities and still got mids by this date.

Because you engage me in settling faster:
Can you give me a good rule of thump, how many cities I should have at a special date?

So how many 1000 BC, how many 1 AD, how many 500 AD ?
And when you settle standard-locations with just 1 food, how many grasstiles should the city have for being well-placed and not just spam because of the number?

________________

I still keep on settling at A. Monte has settled 1NW of the corn, NOO of the pig. I think about conquering this city, keeping it and building at A another one. This sums up to 6 planned citys. Additional there would be 1 at the coast and the other 2 cities of Monte. I have a Great Priest, which can let me build the shrine at Montes capital.

Monte has copper, means axes, but has limited space and no good research. So maybe I will overcome him when I begin to build a bigger army of axes. And thenafter 10 cities are quite easily reachable.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I think your best bet here is to check NC topics, see if anyone posted a save at a comfortable turn and play the map yourself to that point if so. From there you can compare games, even read about people's playthroughs and get some insight as to how got to where they did, and why.

That's the thing, though - HC with Mids, Copper and Gold is already not a challenge. With Mids you're at no risk of falling behind in tech, Copper will keep Monty and his 5 UU swords well at bay, and Fin+gold means your economy is basically secure. I really do have to recommend playing a different, weaker leader, someone like Toku or Charly, if you're interested in improving your gameplay. HC with nearby Gold and Stone will forgive so many mistakes you won't even notice them, but Toku with a plains cow and a dream? Different story.

That can be an idea for the next one. What about conquering the world as the japanese at the world map?
Or is it too easy because of the resource-rich situation and a random game would be better?

Maybe, when this game ends, I will try that.

Actually I need some advices in mid-game. I am not sure which midgame techs are strong, which not, what I sould do with my Great People and which buildings should be build to stay effective. I stopped building courthouses for example, but what about the other midgame buildings like harbors, smitheries, marketplaces, universities, observatories or banks? The most advicers say, that is situational. In past I build them nearly everytime, when there is a small sign, e.g. when a city has 20 commerce, every commerce-building. I want this game commented to learn how to get a good measure about what to build and what not.

And I am beginner in espionage and diplomacy, just having experience about space race and domination/conquest so far. So let's see how the game develops.

 

[AcaMetis]

The earth map, from what I've seen, is so far removed from any regular map that for learning purposes it's better to go with a standard, random game. I would definitely recommend what I like to call a "final exam" map to see if you've really..."mastered" is not the right word, but if you can be confident in calling yourself a Prince (or other difficulty) level player - Toku, random Fractal map, standard settings, no overpowered starts (if you happen to roll double wet corn and double gems, spoilers, even Toku isn't enough to make that start a challenge. Low odds of that happening, though, of course). Obviously what map you roll will heavily influence how hard the map actually is, but that's just Civ IV.txt for you. IMO there's no better test of skill than random Fractal maps as the worst leader, which for most is Toku.

 

[Anysense]

To learn mid-game roll a Standard or even Small map, otherwise the amount of micromanagement will become overwhelming. There may come time when you will be capable of managing 100-city empire on Huge, but you are not quite there yet.

 

[Pangaea]

How would you play Huayna ?

Take a look at his unique unit, which you can build on turn 0. You can start by building those, working high hammer tiles (like a 3H one and settling on PH, for 5H), look for a neighbour > kill the neighbour. Do that again. Congratulations. You now have 3 capitals, and it's turn 30 or something.

I am a bit astonished, that monarch is becoming so easy actually

Keep in mind you are playing with the by far best leader in the game. That aside, there really isn't that big of a difference between the difficulties up to Immortal. The step from Immortal to Deity, however, is gigantic. Once you have a good grasp of many of the basics, and are good with microing cities, you can probably tackle Immortal rather well. You can try a more normal leader on Emperor first if you want, but otherwise you can also step up and try your hand there.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Mh... well, it seems that I struggle a bit with expanding.

I took the hint at heart settling more aggressive and founded the 6th city right before currency. Now this is the global situation:

Complete area:

Western area: (I saw the fish too late -.- )

Northern area:

Southern area:

Eastern area:
(Montezuma, the numbers indicate, which citys I want to keep and where I plan to settle. I will raze his southern city)

_______________

Questions:

1) Would you settle in a similar way?
2) Would you settle a 7th city at Spot A? Could that provoke Monte to declare war even when he is in a lost position?
3) How does Monte will react in this situation, when back in tech, with neighbor who declared war and without border tensions?
4) How can I make the war easier to win? The first approach was expensive and brought more costs than it gave...

War situation:
I took back open borders soon after I scouted his resources and declared war when there was a possibility to take a worker (only caesar disliked that), provoking him to send some troops. He lost 1 axemen, 2 archer and the worker, and after that came to peace with 1g/turn and 30g directly. Meanwhile I built up my cities and teched construction. When the second war begins, I kick him off with war elephants and catas.

His techs are far behind mine, he not even has writing.



It's great to have 3 copper sources. This way we can get even some things like that:

After THAT I will switch to get HBR as soon as possible. This way we can get rid of Monte.

________________________

Overall tech situation looks not completely dominating, but good:

Savegame:

 

[Pangaea]

I will raze his southern city

Why do you want to raze a rather excellent size 4 city? If there is sea food to the south, you can always put a city on top of the horse.

Everybody look very backwards, so you probably have this game in the bag already. Monty doesn't even have IW! Ele-pults will completely overwhelm them.

I tried to load the savegame, but there is a brief message and then the game crashes to desktop. Maybe you use a mod I don't have?

 

[AcaMetis]

Worrying about what will provoke Monty to declare war is kinda meaningless, dude's crazy enough to declare war in any case anyway. Peace is not an option when Monty is on the board, you see Monty and you prepare for war.

 

[crashmon]

A bit of advice (not on your game play here but on shadow games in General).

In a shadow game you go very slow, first 50-100 turns you would only play a few turns (4-5 turns or when a decision needs to be made),and then give everyboy 1-2 days time to giev feedback :- and in the middle game if your in the middle of a war or a golden age you may want feedback every 2-3 turns.

So what I did when I did my shadow game was also play a couple of other games in the background while the shadow game was going on. In this way I was able to go slow and get a lot of feedback on the shadow game, while still getting a civ fix. Of course now I took a break for 6 months and have forgotten some stuff, and having to relearn, but going back to the shadow game helped.

This is the game I did, have a look in terms of the pace of the game (ie look at the time in between my posts to allow for feedback etc), and this will get you best use of the advice of people.

Looking at what you have learned so far I would recommend a Emperor \ Immortal shadow game ( I think your beyond Monarch now). Use a mid range leader like Napolean / go for a standard pangea map (or continents), standard size NH\NE of course.

Here was mine https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/need-help-on-monarch.668629/

But make sure you finish it. My game took over a month but I learned loads including how best to run a Golden age (and how to prepare for it), how to execute a Cuirs rush, barb management in early game. But this is the best way to learn, but you have to take it slow

 

[crashmon]

Oh and make sure you apply the feedback ....I think I made Lymond and Coanda tear our their hair at times when I forgot to micro manage,or build useless improvements, or wasted worker turns etc

 

[Gumbolt]

On plus side your limited number of cities here is helped by limited amount of land. 18 AI for 2000 or so land is not much.

You lack ambition or plan here. You went construction but your not building an army.I can see you are building 1-2 axes slow time.

Your biggest issue is you only have 2 terraces. These are the best building in game.Why would you not chop/whip these in cities asap once you have a few cities. Problem is you built SH. Axes do not come before terraces. WB maybe to help growth if you have fish.

Huge map when you are learning map is bad idea. I rarely play Incans as they feel so over powered.

 

[Gumbolt]

With that start. Corn, pigs and the cows I think you could be producing settlers in 7 or so turns once all 3 are improved. With a worker in 4 turns.
So AH first. Then Mining/ BW for corn gold city. Not sure how important BW is untill you have something worth whipping. I figure if you push come 2000bc you could have 4 cities after 1-2 chops. Main issue might be fogbusting to secure city sites. 2nd worker after first settler could have some value with extra chops.

Then a case of deciding writing/pottery vs masonry. I really doubt any need to rush masonry. With so much forest each chop is worth 50H. Fail gold on SH could of been nice.

You could of settled a gold/pigs/stone site but not sure it's worth it. Better to whip monument or terrace. Losing the coastal tiles would be annoying. Same for stone/desertpig. I think just accept the monument whip in second city.

Once you have 4-5 cities you could probably just axe rush Monty. Looks an easy target. Wait till each city has a terrace first.

Really think you killed your start here by deciding to stay at 2 cities by 1400bc. That is delaying 3rd city by almost 1000 years. You built SH to speed up monument that could of simply been whipped at size 2. Settlers were so much better with such a food strong capital.

I recently tested the virtue of using Incans just to wonder spam. Every decision I came against suggested it was a bad idea. Be it settling cities or tech choices to speed up wonders. Playing religious on Civ 4 really sets you back so much here.

I think if you did the above you would see how quickly you could of expanded here.

 

[Gumbolt]

2000bc. 3 cities with settler in capital for copper city east of capital. New city grabbed the pigs and capital took the copper. Stone city whipped monument.just before gold was ready.

Far from perfect but 625bc.
Mids built 1120bc.
9 cities with settler in place for city number 10. Another whipped lined up in gold city for further settler.
8 of 9 cities have terraces. (2 out of 6 cities had them by 325bc on your save.) Why would you not build the best building in the game for growth? (Will have double your number of cities by 325bc)

Aztecs are gone. Captured Aztec city had a terrace pretty much turn it came out of rebellion due to 2 pre chops.. Used about 10-11 units on Aztec capital. Had 3 defenders but 60% cultural defences. Aztec had copper but hadn't built the mine. Other 2 cities 1 defender. Captured 2 workers. I could of used the UU but that felt like cheating on an axe rush. I had 3 or so uu in stack.

Bit late on cottages. Helper cities for cottages needs a few more cottages. Need to grow capital.

Not much here to really play on for as I have so much land now and when cottages kick in I will be way ahead on science. I can still whip 1-2 more settlers. Settled clams city with no food but 1 chop got me to point where I could whip terrace. Cottaged grassland so not too big a wait.

Got about 100 fail gold from Stone Henge.

Building Aqueduct for Hanging Gardens. Should be great with 12-13 cities.

Key strengths here:
Over powered Unique Unit (UU)
Replacement granary that gives you 2 culture a turn. Which is 30H cheaper than a library for 2 culture a turn.
Financial trait with rivers and gold. Bonus commerce is huge.
Sooo much forest too. I chopped 7 forest each adding 50H a chop to mids. If I had got maths sooner that would of been much higher.
Aztec capital is surrounded by forest.

This is why you don't wonder spam on 2 cities. As land and food are king on civ 4. If you sit on a small amount of land you get punished on higher levels unless you are planning to take down a neighbour AI.

Played to 225bc just so you had a comparison.

Spoiler Up to 225bc :

Spammed cities. Built 4 more cities.
Completed Hanging gardens. All 13 cities +1 pop. Capital size 13! Which is okay for this date. Next biggest AI has 7 cities.
Started on MM wonder. Albeit it's a V slow build.
What I have pretty much ignored is diplomcy and espionage.
Traded for IW and alphabet this turn. at 100% science just over 200 beakers a turn. I needed alphabet as cities were starting to run out of useful builds Really didn't want to give away Calendar.
I still lack any great people but the next will likely be used on a golden age.
I whipped a workboat in error. Ooops. Wanted Terrace first!
Not completing Moai Statutes. It was for fail gold.

Held back from war mode. Could go phants now I have ivory. That would of taken down 1-2 AI. I suspect axes would be enough with pults.

At this point I will stop as with 18 Ai this game could take hours.