Idea/Project : Vox Populi 3rd and 4th Unique Components

What do you think about adding new unique components to the civilizations of VP ?

  • I think it is too soon : balancing VP should stay the priority for now

  • I consider that VP is quite balanced, and I don't want new UC to hurt the balance

  • I think adding new UC would be an error : two UC per faction is enough, period

  • A lot of work will have to be done, but I'm not against the idea

  • I think it is a good idea : 2 UC per civilization is not enough for me

  • My opinion is not represented by the responses above (so I'll describe it in the comments)


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bullfeathers that was holywood :p

The reason I was pushing for the white house and the early ideology adoption is well. The Constitution of the United States was the greatest contribution of our country. (politically even in the south I identify as Marxist) but still the constitution and the framework of an early ideology would give America a good head start. on it. would be strong yes allowing them to choose ideology tenets early but if behind on other "policies" actually does have its weaknesses
 
Bull**** that was holywood :p

The reason I was pushing for the white house and the early ideology adoption is well. The Constitution of the United States was the greatest contribution of our country. (politically even in the south I identify as Marxist) but still the constitution and the framework of an early ideology would give America a good head start. on it. would be strong yes allowing them to choose ideology tenets early but if behind on other "policies" actually does have its weaknesses

I mentioned earlier that America is a culture first science second civ (something I want to make a 50-50 ratio as some people may be able to tell) there is no good reason that as a culture first civ would have trouble grabbing at least 1 ideology first, and if that's the case and you DO get an ideology before the White House, then it now sounds like a kinda meh building unless it comes so early that you're always guaranteed the first ideology before it's even feasible through tech or culture, and then in that case that just sounds a little unfair. Maybe if it was something that gave a free social policy or a dense sum of culture then that would be fine, buuut it can always be changed. After all, buildings changed all over the place during the development of the community balance patch. Heck they still do.

Side note: Yes, freedom is super groovy for America, but it's not like they were the first ever civilization to develop the ideology, they just glamourised the heck out of it. You know what they were the first civilization to dooo. :mischief: It rhymes with rune sanding.

OK I'll shut up now. :lol:
 
EDIT: Here's an idea. How about combining the concepts? The trailblazer can settle frontier towns in a similar fashion to a Great Merchant, and when they make cities state deals they gain population in the capital as a nod to Americas eventual melting pot status. That would then free up a unique for something new.
That is even better than I thought. I fully agree with this.

I like that early ideology adoption. But I also want to include themes from all eras of America.(And it isn't hard since America is such a young nation.)
But as you can see, some of the ideologies are just terribly strong when adopted at renicansse era. (6 Foriegn Legions? Hospital in every city?)
So I suggest something new that represent the cold war. That way, we can add both the ideological and the space race theme. Space race in the cold war wasn't just about scientific approach. It was an epic battle of two ideologies who wanted to show theirs were superior.
So.... How about this? There are two options.
Voice of Liberty(just some fancy name with no historical in accuracy), Unique Broadcast Tower: Convert 5% of your science in this city into tourism. Increase unhappyness modifier by tourism by 10%(Stacks with itself). Everytime you select a tenet, you gain a large amount of tourism and science.
N.A.S.A Laboratory(Another fancy name), Unique Laboratory: Convert 5% of your science in this city to tourism. Every time you research a technology, get a tourism boost proportional to number of ideological tenet selected. +25% Production towards Spaceship parts.
 
That is even better than I thought. I fully agree with this.

I like that early ideology adoption. But I also want to include themes from all eras of America.(And it isn't hard since America is such a young nation.)
But as you can see, some of the ideologies are just terribly strong when adopted at renicansse era. (6 Foriegn Legions? Hospital in every city?)
So I suggest something new that represent the cold war. That way, we can add both the ideological and the space race theme. Space race in the cold war wasn't just about scientific approach. It was an epic battle of two ideologies who wanted to show theirs were superior.
So.... How about this? There are two options.
Voice of Liberty(just some fancy name with no historical in accuracy), Unique Broadcast Tower: Convert 5% of your science in this city into tourism. Increase unhappyness modifier by tourism by 10%(Stacks with itself). Everytime you select a tenet, you gain a large amount of tourism and science.
N.A.S.A Laboratory(Another fancy name), Unique Laboratory: Convert 5% of your science in this city to tourism. Every time you research a technology, get a tourism boost proportional to number of ideological tenet selected. +25% Production towards Spaceship parts.


Both of these are very interesting but there is something I want to mention about the NASA laboratory. The 25% production towards spaceship parts would be far better as a free spaceship factory. With a free spaceship factory, not only does it gives you production toward spaceship parts but it also saves a good chunk of production time, aluminum, and gives a 25% boost in science. That's why the NACA center was set up the way it was. Even though it's a modern building and that doesn't seem like it would be the best for science, because it gives you a free spaceship factory in the Indormation Era that gives you an entire Era and a half to build it in every city you own. By the time you reach the information era, you'll likely have one in every city which effectively increasing your scientific output in the final era by 25%. If you're going culture with America that means you can try to rush the Internet and have a far easier time doing it. If you're going with science America then it means that you can go through any information technology you want without having to worry about getting the spaceship factory first.

Also, a note about the NACA Center: The variation I suggested had a experience bonus to aircraft units and that aspect really depends on if the NASA Laboratory were to be chosen over the NACA Center ( that is if either were to be considered at all in the first place ). But the NACA Center was a precursor to NASA built in the First World War to develop faster planes, before eventually repurposing itself as NASA. That's why the modified version of Kel A's had a military and production focus instead of a tourism focus, but the NACA center did come earlier in 1914, with NASA forming in 1958 so something like a straight up NASA center just seemed a little too late for me as it would appear all the way in the Atomic Era while the NACA Center could start in the Modern Era.


EDIT: As a compromise between the two concepts, the NACA Center could lose its extra specialist and/or production for something that further boost culture, tourism, or ideological pressure. I like it just the way it is, but this is a discussion and consensus process.
 
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Both of these are very interesting but there is something I want to mention about the NASA laboratory. The 25% production towards spaceship parts would be far better as a free spaceship factory. With a free spaceship factory, not only does it gives you production toward spaceship parts but it also saves a good chunk of production time, aluminum, and gives a 25% boost in science. That's why the NACA center was set up the way it was. Even though it's a modern building and that doesn't seem like it would be the best for science, because it gives you a free spaceship factory in the Indormation Era that gives you an entire Era and a half to build it in every city you own. By the time you reach the information era, you'll likely have one in every city which effectively increasing your scientific output in the final era by 25%. If you're going culture with America that means you can try to rush the Internet and have a far easier time doing it. If you're going with science America then it means that you can go through any information technology you want without having to worry about getting the spaceship factory first.
Okay. So change it to city gains spaceship factory when entering information era?

Also, a note about the NACA Center: The variation I suggested had a experience bonus to aircraft units and that aspect really depends on if the NASA Laboratory were to be chosen over the NACA Center ( that is if either were to be considered at all in the first place ). But the NACA Center was a precursor to NASA built in the First World War to develop faster planes, before eventually repurposing itself as NASA. That's why the modified version of Kel A's had a military and production focus instead of a tourism focus, but the NACA center did come earlier in 1914, with NASA forming in 1958 so something like a straight up NASA center just seemed a little too late for me as it would appear all the way in the Atomic Era while the NACA Center could start in the Modern Era.


EDIT: As a compromise between the two concepts, the NACA Center could lose its extra specialist and/or production for something that further boost culture, tourism, or ideological pressure. I like it just the way it is, but this is a discussion and consensus process.
Yeah, I thought it has some historical inaccuracy. But there are no science buildings in the atomic era.

EDIT: Got an idea. What if NACA Center gave only +5% science per ideological tenet selected at modern era. And gives +5% tourism bonus per technology ahead at atomic era. Finally giving free spaceship factory at information era. That could represent both NACA and NASA,
 
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Okay. So change it to city gains spaceship factory when entering information era?
Totally.


Yeah, I thought it has some historical inaccuracy. But there are no science buildings in the atomic era.
That is true, so maybe a combination of ideas, that way there's something in the modern era, that still satisfied everyone.

EDIT: Got an idea. What if NACA Center gave only +5% science per ideological tenet selected at modern era. And gives +5% tourism bonus per technology ahead at atomic era. Finally giving free spaceship factory at information era. That could represent both NACA and NASA,
That's not a bad idea. It would need a hard cap, as there are enough available tenets to make science and tourism bonuses far too strong, but the concept seems nice. I'm actually making a small list of propositions, the first being the original, the second being your own (though slightly altered for balance purposes), and the others being newer concepts.

NACA Center: All of which replace the Research Lab of the Modern Era.
A: +6 :c5production:, +1 scientific specialist slot. +25 experience to all aircraft units built in this city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
World wonders cost more production as you continue to build them. If you're a runaway, any extra production could be very useful for continuing to build wonders, and the scientific specialist slot is a nice bonus if you try to put an emphasis on specialist and Great People.

B: Base +4 :c5science: removed. +5% :c5science: for every ideological tenet adopted up to +25%. +1 :tourism: for every technology past the modern era. +50% production towards military bases and spaceship factories.
Having free EXP for air units, all of the added science, all of the added tourism (5% tourism would be crazy as that could nearly double your total tourism by the end game, but +23 tourism in every city by the end of the game wouldn't be as aggressive), and a free spaceship factory seemed far too powerful, so I changed the air and space aspects of this one so that the building isn't as overpowered.

C: Base +4 :c5science: removed. +5% :c5science: for every ideological tenet adopted up to +25%. +15 EXP for all air units built in this city. +50% production towards military bases, airports, and spaceship factories.

This is very similar to B, but because the Airport gives tourism, I changed it to make Airports easier to build, and gave EXP back to air units.



D: +2 :c5culture:, +2:c5production: from Institutions built in this city. +2:c5culture:,+2:c5science: from Manufactures built in this city. +25 experience to all aircraft built in the city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
This version puts more of an emphasis on great person improvements, and the added culture translates into tourism when you build tourism buildings.

E: Ideological pressure and from this city increases by 50%. +25 EXP to all aircraft built in the city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
I'm not 100% sure if Ideological pressure is city to city, or empire as a whole, so this may need to be changed, but you get the idea.

All of these seem nice, but I'm most fond of A and C.
 
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Totally.



That is true, so maybe a combination of ideas, that way there's something in the modern era, that still satisfied everyone.


That's not a bad idea. It would need a hard cap, as there are enough available tenets to make science and tourism bonuses far too strong, but the concept seems nice. I'm actually making a small list of propositions, the first being the original, the second being your own (though slightly altered for balance purposes), and the others being newer concepts.

NACA Center: All of which replace the Research Lab of the Modern Era.
A: +6 :c5production:, +1 scientific specialist slot. +25 experience to all aircraft units built in this city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
World wonders cost more production as you continue to build them. If you're a runaway, any extra production could be very useful for continuing to build wonders, and the scientific specialist slot is a nice bonus if you try to put an emphasis on specialist and Great People.

B: Base +4 :c5science: removed. +5% :c5science: for every ideological tenet adopted up to +25%. +1 :tourism: for every technology past the modern era. +50% production towards military bases and spaceship factories.
Having free EXP for air units, all of the added science, all of the added tourism (5% tourism would be crazy as that could nearly double your total tourism by the end game, but +23 tourism in every city by the end of the game wouldn't be as aggressive), and a free spaceship factory seemed far too powerful, so I changed the air and space aspects of this one so that the building isn't as overpowered.

C: Base +4 :c5science: removed. +5% :c5science: for every ideological tenet adopted up to +25%. +15 EXP for all air units built in this city. +50% production towards military bases, airports, and spaceship factories.

This is very similar to B, but because the Airport gives tourism, I changed it to make Airports easier to build, and gave EXP back to air units.



D: +2 :c5culture:, +2:c5production: from Institutions built in this city. +2:c5culture:,+2:c5science: from Manufactures built in this city. +25 experience to all aircraft built in the city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
This version puts more of an emphasis on great person improvements, and the added culture translates into tourism when you build tourism buildings.

E: Ideological pressure and from this city increases by 50%. +25 EXP to all aircraft built in the city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
I'm not 100% sure if Ideological pressure is city to city, or empire as a whole, so this may need to be changed, but you get the idea.

All of these seem nice, but I'm most fond of A and C.
I thinks B is more balanced out version of my proposal, so I like it. But I also think C is very good.
 
You really don't want another late-game unique building for America, trust me on this.
I see little wrong with another late game unique so long as it has the power to compensate. Besides the trailblazer and/or frontier town (or both or neither depending on the choices made) will likely be gamestarters or at the very least early uniques. Buuut with that said, I can see the lack of appeal in 2 late game buildings, and I've mentioned in the thread that America not having a space oriented building is okay. Heartbreaking, but okay.

I'm still standing by my words though. Space Race or bust! Late game culture science powerhouse America: make it happen. :D
 
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NACA Center: All of which replace the Research Lab of the Modern Era.
A: +6 :c5production:, +1 scientific specialist slot. +25 experience to all aircraft units built in this city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
World wonders cost more production as you continue to build them. If you're a runaway, any extra production could be very useful for continuing to build wonders, and the scientific specialist slot is a nice bonus if you try to put an emphasis on specialist and Great People.

B: Base +4 :c5science: removed. +5% :c5science: for every ideological tenet adopted up to +25%. +1 :tourism: for every technology past the modern era. +50% production towards military bases and spaceship factories.
Having free EXP for air units, all of the added science, all of the added tourism (5% tourism would be crazy as that could nearly double your total tourism by the end game, but +23 tourism in every city by the end of the game wouldn't be as aggressive), and a free spaceship factory seemed far too powerful, so I changed the air and space aspects of this one so that the building isn't as overpowered.

C: Base +4 :c5science: removed. +5% :c5science: for every ideological tenet adopted up to +25%. +15 EXP for all air units built in this city. +50% production towards military bases, airports, and spaceship factories.

This is very similar to B, but because the Airport gives tourism, I changed it to make Airports easier to build, and gave EXP back to air units.



D: +2 :c5culture:, +2:c5production: from Institutions built in this city. +2:c5culture:,+2:c5science: from Manufactures built in this city. +25 experience to all aircraft built in the city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
This version puts more of an emphasis on great person improvements, and the added culture translates into tourism when you build tourism buildings.

E: Ideological pressure and from this city increases by 50%. +25 EXP to all aircraft built in the city. Free space ship factory after reaching the information era.
I'm not 100% sure if Ideological pressure is city to city, or empire as a whole, so this may need to be changed, but you get the idea.

All of these seem nice, but I'm most fond of A and C.

I like C. And I like the idea of America having 2 late uniques. They are a late to the party civilization after all.

Also, I really like the idea of the Frontier Town, mostly because tangible UIs are nice and rare to find, plus that gold bonus would work very well for the UA. I don't know if that's going to stay, or the White House or the Trailblazer or whatever, but as far as early game uniques go, that one is my favorite.
 
Also random question: why does Atilla only get 2 battering rams? Is it still a catapult replacement or is it its own thing like the seige towers?
 
Oh and Jungle bucks your wrong it was Rome :) The republic of Rome was completely and totally a plutocratic ogliarchy like you find in America today. In fact if Rome had not collapsed and had maintained its Patrician control eventually a Plebian revolution could have very well instituted A basically Socialist government where the means of production, distribution etc... were controlled by the people aka the state.
 
Oh and Jungle bucks your wrong it was Rome :) The republic of Rome was completely and totally a plutocratic ogliarchy like you find in America today. In fact if Rome had not collapsed and had maintained its Patrician control eventually a Plebian revolution could have very well instituted A basically Socialist government where the means of production, distribution etc... were controlled by the people aka the state.

Wait. what was I wrong about?
 
America first Freedom... that was Rome...

Human Rights- Persia

What America had that made it beautiful and glorious is a constitution. Balance of power. Separation of Church and State. Freedom of religion. Freedom of the press. Freedom of assembly etc... in fact if the United states ever went Red (soviet Style) and those institutions remained it would have been quite glorious.

youd basically have the press acting to check the balance of power with the leaders in power. You would wind up with a flourishing of Multiple religions largely influenced by ideology in their delivery. Liberation theology, Labor Zionism, Left wing Islam, it would be quite glorious. You wouldn't have the side effect of every single news and media outlet creating stories exclusively to project the same side of a story you would wind up with flourishing prospectives. If the right to publish what the journalist wants was out there then it would largely mean lots of diverse opinions without the publishers bias as much worrying about what would sell. The publisher would be more interested in quality and the artistic expression of things would have more than balanced out for any corruption.

It would almost act as a direct link between priorities of the people and their government. True democracy.
 
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Oh and Jungle bucks your wrong it was Rome :) The republic of Rome was completely and totally a plutocratic ogliarchy like you find in America today. In fact if Rome had not collapsed and had maintained its Patrician control eventually a Plebian revolution could have very well instituted A basically Socialist government where the means of production, distribution etc... were controlled by the people aka the state.
I don't want to get into semantics but this is a pretty broad oversimplification. :)

G
 
yeah it is, Civ is oversimplification. made for wet dreams of a utopia. an alternate timeline game. That's the only reason I started playing it.

Only reason I liked it. Imagine daydreaming about your perfect world. It sounds wonderful doesn't it. Picking up a few bottles of beers it shows you that dreams at least in a game can come true. Something beautiful. Magnificent.
 
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America first Freedom... that was Rome...
"Side note: Yes, freedom is super groovy for America, but it's not like they were the first ever civilization to develop the ideology, they just glamourised the heck out of it. You know what they were the first civilization to dooo. :mischief: It rhymes with rune sanding."

You misinterpret my comment buddy. I didn't say America was the first civilization to develop the ideology of Freedom. I was implying that America was the first civilization to get a man on the moon (because rune sanding rhymes with moon landing), because I was pushing for America to get the N.A.C.A. Center. Maybe that would've been better if the second sentence had a question mark at the end, because I was asking a rhetorical question that we both knew the answer to. :lol:
 
Just dropping a suggestion

If you want this mod to get finished, what is important is to get a basic outline of what the civs will have, and start making it happen. A long discussion about what the best unique best represents Rome or America really doesn't move the project forward. If it becomes playable you will also see why certain ideas might be great or not so much.

As an example, I have a feeling if you played a game where all civs have 4 uniques as USA you are going to find yourself wanting more early bonuses and not even remotely caring about a bonus to research labs
 
Just dropping a suggestion

If you want this mod to get finished, what is important is to get a basic outline of what the civs will have, and start making it happen. A long discussion about what the best unique best represents Rome or America really doesn't move the project forward. If it becomes playable you will also see why certain ideas might be great or not so much.

As an example, I have a feeling if you played a game where all civs have 4 uniques as USA you are going to find yourself wanting more early bonuses and not even remotely caring about a bonus to research labs
If it's a research lab that's worth the wait and effort, people would care. But fine. I'm not going to keep this thread filled with needless arguing and further suggestions that are going nowhere. I made my complaints about the Trailblazer being counter-intuitive to the UA, and I proposed some alternatives, but at the end of the day, this is still a project that's out of my hands, so I'm not going to bother forcing anything as if I have the final say in what happens.

One final thought though:
Among the suggestions made, if Hinin chooses to stick with the Trailblazer, or the Frontier Town, I'd like to make one final suggestion and change the name of the unit to a Patroon. Trailblazer doesn't really have much historic value to the title, that's just Hollywood Wild West fluff, and a Frontier Town is by definition wrong if it's not built on a frontier, but a Patroon would be a historically relevant concept that could fit either unique perfectly.
Originally forming in the 17th century Dutch Colony of North America's New Netherland, Patroons were highly wealthy expansionist that, through the Charter of Freedoms and Exemptions, claimed manorial rights to massive sums of land around them to develop into estates and manors to both furthur expansion, colonization, and fat stacks of American money for the Dutch West India Company. Certain patroonships developed into small towns and colonies, but after the English takeover of New Netherland in 1664, Patroonships would continue, but simply as a form of American estate or manor.
Patroons were both Settlers and Great Merchants, so either concept would work fine, and Patroonships/Patroon Manors, were essentially towns. So, in the event that the Trailblazer or Frontier Town is chosen, naming it a Patroon (and naming the Frontier Town a Patroon Manor), would be far more appropriate. Bonus wise, so long as it generates extra gold, extra faith (expanded patroonships regularly developed churches), and science for...reasons, I shall be content.

Keep in mind, this isn't me trying to push a new unique, this is just me talking about what would be better names for already proposed concepts.
 
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