Idea/Project : Vox Populi 3rd and 4th Unique Components

[Hinin]

Korea updated.
Morocco, Persia, Polynesia and Spain completed.

 

[Funak]

Quick question, but why was Companion Cavalry taken out of Alexander's Greece again?

I completely agree but I would call them Hetairoi instead of Companion Cavalry.

But that being said I'm not sure about stacking them up with two UU in the same era, might be overkill. On the other hand there is very little overlapping between the roles of horsemen and spearmen.

 

[Hinin]

Quick question, but why was Companion Cavalry taken out of Alexander's Greece again?

Because two unique land units (like two unique ship units) in the same era, in VP, can become far too dangerous in the hands of a good AI (VP's IA is far superior to the one of the vanilla game) or player. Carthage, for example, didn't need a second UB (simply because its UA and the Great Cothon gives it an already really powerful economy in the early game) nor three UU : this is why I choose a unique land unit (but not an elephant, because it would oblige me to work on the elephant 3D model and would be redundant with the Quadrireme : too much high CP units), the Numidian cavalry, and a UGP, the Sophet, which doesn't give more bonus than a GG or a GAdm, but offers flexibility for a civ with a unique land unit and a unique ship at the same time.

Anyway, the Strategos for Greece is, as others before me said, a bit of an overkill for an already City State-oriented Greece. I think it would be better if the unit was themed more around helping Alexander maintain extended conquest. Therefore, I propose this:

• Garrisoning a Strategos in a conquered city eliminates Unhappiness from that city during war. (can the AI be taught to use this, though?)
• A Strategos can be expended at any time in a conquered city to assimilate it (annex + free courthouse). (again, as above)

This way you could go on conquering sprees and use the Strategos to soften the unhappiness blow a bit, moving him about when a city's resistance is over.
(Also I wonder if it's possible instead of these to transfer part of Rome's ability to Strategos, the one about conquered cities keeping more buildings intact upon being conquered, but... I guess that would take away Rome's shine)

It looks a lot like the idea behind the modded version of Napoleonic France in this mod from JFD and Janboruta. In that case, though, the name of the UGP should change. Why not Somatophylax ?
The main advantage of this kind of unit is that it allows Alexander to benefit from really early conquests (before Mathematics) and also to integrate cities from empires on which the Greek cultural influence is weak (knowing that the Greek civ is known for having early tourism through the Acropolis).

As for the Agora, I think you're coming close to what it should be; a place of political discourse that functions as a market as well. Here's my suggestion:

• +1, +1 (I don't think it should give more gold than the normal market, if it already gives other yields)
• When a diplomatic unit is created in the city, receive Culture and Production equal to that unit's Diplomatic Influence. (Hopefully early on this won't be too abusable, what with Paper being as rare as it is -- I guess it could be if you traded for Paper from everyone else?)

Though... I'm not sure it's TIMED right, since paper comes with Writing later on... maybe the Agora could give a Great Diplomat point? A Civil Servant specialist? Ehh.

Eh... This building will not be an easy one to balance. I'll see how well it works first with its current form, and after try to balance it so that it doesn't make a wide Greece too overpowered.

 

[Randomares]

Eh... This building will not be an easy one to balance. I'll see how well it works first with its current form, and after try to balance it so that it doesn't make a wide Greece too overpowered.

When I thought of it initially, I thought the Agora should function as an amalgam of most Ancient Era buildings; a monument, a council, and a market. In that vein I thought maybe it could replace the Council, and simply give an additional Culture and Gold. Simple, maybe boring, but pretty powerful early on- imagine getting Ancestor Worship as a pantheon as well. Greece would prioritize Agoras in every city, and build up a good, diverse infrastructure to make for a thriving Classical Era civilization that excelled culturally and scientifically.

Another idea, was to make the Agora a market that grants city connections by sea, epitomizing on Greece consisting of lots of coastal and island city states. Perhaps it could keep a production bonus to diplomatic units, too.

Both these ideas though don't deal so heavily with the political aspect, though at that point it might just be a little nitpicky of me.

 

[Hinin]

When I thought of it initially, I thought the Agora should function as an amalgam of most Ancient Era buildings; a monument, a council, and a market. In that vein I thought maybe it could replace the Council, and simply give an additional Culture and Gold. Simple, maybe boring, but pretty powerful early on- imagine getting Ancestor Worship as a pantheon as well. Greece would prioritize Agoras in every city, and build up a good, diverse infrastructure to make for a thriving Classical Era civilization that excelled culturally and scientifically.

Another idea, was to make the Agora a market that grants city connections by sea, epitomizing on Greece consisting of lots of coastal and island city states. Perhaps it could keep a production bonus to diplomatic units, too.

Both these ideas though don't deal so heavily with the political aspect, though at that point it might just be a little nitpicky of me.

First idea (amalgam) : this would be what could happen if I don't find any way to balance the agora as a diplo/CS oriented building. Thanks though.
Second idea (lighthouse ersatz) : the problem is that the lighthouse is only a tier later (if we were in the vanilla version, where the harbor is the building used to create city connections, I would have accepted this idea gladly)... I prefer keeping the bonus for other things...

 

[Hinin]

Polynesia updated.
Zulus completed.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The Iziko seems too different from the Musician's Guild to be properly a Musician's Guild replacement, what with having practically no limit and being available 2 eras earlier. Maybe you can have it be a unique amphitheater with the same bonuses?

 

[Hinin]

The Iziko seems too different from the Musician's Guild to be properly a Musician's Guild replacement, what with having practically no limit and being available 2 eras earlier. Maybe you can have it be a unique amphitheater with the same bonuses?

I wanted the Zulus to be able to produce GMusicians early + synergy with the Refinement policy (+1 happiness and +3 culture per guild). If you find the construction limit too high, I can place the limit at 8.

 

[Hinin]

Poland completed.

 

[CrazyG]

UU - Holkan warrior (replaces Spearman) : available at Calendar instead of Bronze working ; decreased production/gold cost (55 instead of 70) ; 11 CP instead of 10 ; has the "Capture raid" (when killing an enemy unit, gain a small amount of and in each city, scales with era => I'm speaking of a very small amount, like 3 and 5 per city during the Ancient Era) promotion.

5 per city is a small amount ? With 2 cities you usually earn more faith per kill than the Aztec do

I would be really careful about adding more bonus faith early on, espeically faith on kills. I wouldn't add faith on kills to civs who already have bonus faith, like the Maya or India

 

[Blue Ghost]

I wanted the Zulus to be able to produce GMusicians early + synergy with the Refinement policy (+1 happiness and +3 culture per guild). If you find the construction limit too high, I can place the limit at 8.

I suppose the Refinement policy is a reason for making it a musician's guild. Aside from that, I don't see any reason a unique amphitheater can't have musician slots or specialist points. I just think making it an amphitheater would be more intuitive. And it gets synergy with Humanism.

 

[Hinin]

5 per city is a small amount ? With 2 cities you usually earn more faith per kill than the Aztec do
I would be really careful about adding more bonus faith early on, espeically faith on kills. I wouldn't add faith on kills to civs who already have bonus faith, like the Maya or India

I'll decrease the bonus.
What would you use to replace the faith bonus ? Do you think science alone is enough, or do you propose to suppress the bonus entirely ?

I suppose the Refinement policy is a reason for making it a musician's guild. Aside from that, I don't see any reason a unique amphitheater can't have musician slots or specialist points. I just think making it an amphitheater would be more intuitive. And it gets synergy with Humanism.

It's a choice : do you think culture + happiness or science is the most important thing to give to the Zulus ?
=> I think I'll go toward an amphitheater replacement : going authority already allows the Zulus to have plenty of culture by garrisoning units, and adding Musician specialist slots to the amphitheaters will give access to even more culture through specialists if necessary.

 

[Hinin]

Mayas and Zulus updated.

 

[CrazyG]

What would you use to replace the faith bonus ? Do you think science alone is enough, or do you propose to suppress the bonus entirely ?

Science on kills is unique and interesting

 

[Hinin]

Science on kills is unique and interesting

I agree

 

[Hinin]

Mayas updated.
Sweden completed.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Feedbacky thoughts:

Armada (of Spain) would get really stupidly hilarious levels, at least on Marathon where I play, if I understood the ability correctly. Handful of coastal cities and you have - well - an armada of ships that might as well be indestructible for all the promotions they have.

Stavkyrka's(Sweden) ability pushes so heavily towards Zealotry it's kinda silly - either you're constantly buying your military with faith(and probably steamrolling your capital like crazy), or you're barely getting anything off the building. I think a smaller bonus(4 or 5, scaling) when a military unit is bought in the city, regardless of how it was bought, would work better. Still good with Zealotry, but at least useful if you don't get said belief (or religion of your own at all).

I would suggest swapping the name for Galleoni to good ol' Great Galleas, while keeping it an earlier, cheaper Frigate replacement.

 

[Hinin]

Armada (of Spain) would get really stupidly hilarious levels, at least on Marathon where I play, if I understood the ability correctly. Handful of coastal cities and you have - well - an armada of ships that might as well be indestructible for all the promotions they have.

As you must have noticed, the goal of this unit is to make you "feel the investment" : this UU is really powerful if you take your time building then garrisoning it in a city for twenty turns. The lost PM is to make this unit more vulnerable to flanking maneuvers (and so make it feel overwhelming but not unbeatable).
Two modifications will be done : the XP points per turn obtained will be reduced and a cap will be put (like for the barbarians).
I think the values will be : for the XP per turn : 3 XP per turn ; for the cap : 45 XP.

Stavkyrka's(Sweden) ability pushes so heavily towards Zealotry it's kinda silly - either you're constantly buying your military with faith(and probably steamrolling your capital like crazy), or you're barely getting anything off the building. I think a smaller bonus(4 or 5, scaling) when a military unit is bought in the city, regardless of how it was bought, would work better. Still good with Zealotry, but at least useful if you don't get said belief (or religion of your own at all).

I agree, and will do necessary modifications.
Thank you for your support.

 

[Hinin]

China, Spain and Sweden updated.

PS : I would like your opinion on some of the UC :
- The Tlatoani (UGP replacing the GP for the Aztecs) => is it OP or too difficult to use ?
- The Prowler (UU replacing the Musketman for the Iroquois) => is it interesting or not ?
- The Menara gardens (UB replacing the Garden for Morocco) => is it interesting or not ?
- The Naqsh-e (UB replacing the Stone works for Persia) => isn't it a little too bland while being also a little OP ?
- The Voivode (UGP replacing the GG for Poland) => is the policy number required too low/high ?
- The Koa (UU replacing the Swordman for Polynesia) => is the unique promotion too anecdotic/limited in usefulness ?
- The Fale Tele (UB replacing the Council for Polynesia) => idem
- The Boyar (UGP replacing the GG for Russia) => idem
- The Encomenderos (UCivilian replacing the Envoy for Spain) => is it too exploitable (should one of the bonus be reduced/supressed) ?
- The Oostindische Compagnie (UB replacing the East India Company for the Netherlands) => isn't it a little too bland/in opposition to what the civ is usually focused on (diplomacy with the other civs, and so not doing actions capable of bothering others).
- The Sublime Porte (UB replacing the National monument for the Ottomans) => Isn't the bonus a little too bland ?
- The Induna (UGP replacing the GG for the Zulus) => Are the bonus powerful of not enough ?

Thank you to all those who reply

 

[Funak]

PS : I would like your opinion on some of the UC :

You asked for this...

UGP - Tlatoani (replaces Great Prophet) with, at choice, , , or : cannot be used to spread religion ; can be expanded to create an Altar (replaces Holy site, so has the later bonus associated) with an additional bonus depending on the god selected when expending (Huitzilopotchli : +3 , claim adjacent tiles ; Tezcatlipoca : +2 and +2 , +1 and +1 for each era past the Ancient era ; Tlaloc : +3 , is considered a source of fresh water (I'll need the Guaramantes code from the Foggara), +1 to all tiles around it ; Huehueteotl : +3 , +10 % building in the city exploiting it, doesn't stack) ; can be expended to heal all land units in a radius of 1 tile around it.
=> Maybe too powerful and hard to code, but I would like to try it out.
=> The code from the Pathfinder could be used here for when the an altar is constructed.


(UU - Eagle (replaces Scout) : has the "Will of the Tlatoani" (+10% CS and RCS for each level the unit has) ; has access to the melee units promotions ; still has the "Ignore terrain cost" and "Reconnaissance" promotions
=> less survivable during long melees than the Jaguar, but with superior movement, this units, after some exploration and encounters, will become a surprising danger (without being overpowered) for your enemies and will stay dangerous when upgraded with proper promotions.
=> I wanted to give the reconnaissance unit line of the Aztec a reason to be used (since usually, it's only Jaguar production until the end of the Classical era). This unit doesn't make the Aztec too much more powerful because, even if the two UU of the Aztecs are usable at the beginning of the game, this one is more expensive and is far more restricted in its usability on the long run. I hope it will give even more flavor to the civ without breaking the balance (you'll have to chose between the two branches, like the Shoshones with the Pathfinder)
=> put aside for now because of many negative, but thoughtful, reactions)

UB - Huey Teocalli (replaces Heroic Epic) : available at Calendar (instead of Iron Working) ; + 5 ; + 10 and in the city each time one of your units dies (scales with era) ; 2 Great works of Writing slots (instead of one), with +5 if themed with Writings of the same era and civilization.
=> bonus for losing units was a thing before in VP, and I wanted to reintegrate it for the Aztecs since it soften this All or nothing side of the civ : even if you are losing a war, you'll replenish more quickly and benefit a bit from it (plus it gives a boost to Tradition Aztec by strengthening your main city's production and culture, which is quite relevant lore-wise).

The great prophet seems really complicated I mean I don't even understand half of what it does from reading the text. But that's probably because most of it is huehuehuehue

The scout I've already shared my thoughts on. I think another unique unit would be the way to go. We're kinda limited in units to replace however, unless we're willing to go into the renaissance era for inspiration, and ignore the fact that the aztecs didn't actually have renaissance era techs despite the visiting Europeans having it.

Not really a fan of the wonder either, feels like it is too based around throwing units away. The AI would probably do great with it, but that does not really make it a good wonder.

UU - Prowler (replaces Musketman) : slightly weaker (- 2 CP ; - 2 RCP) than the Musketman ; has the "Withdraw before melee" and "Indirect Fire" promotions.
=> with the Iroquois UA, this unit can be a nightmare for your enemies : if not outnumbered, it will be very hard to catch and, with spotters, will continuously attack, even if it will inflict less damages than the medium Musketman.

UB - Sachems Council (replaces Scrivener's Office) : +1 and +2 per 4 in the city ; + 3 Great Diplomat points (instead of 1) ; whenever a city is built of captured, the city gains + 45 and +30 (scaling with era) ; all councils gain +3 .

The unique unit is a lot weaker than the other musket replacements.
Withdrawing can be good, but is generally not seen as fantastic. Indirect fire, while synergizing fairly well with the Iroquois UA isn't really a very good promotion, I mean it even lowers RCS further.

The wonder is... Fine I guess? Hard to tell really, those are a lot of yields, but it's a wonder so it's limited to one city.

UU - Black Guard (replaces Tercio) : 28 CP instead of 25 ; doesn't have the "+50 % CS against mounted units" promotion, but has the "Royal guard" (+30 % CS when fortified ; bonus doubled during ) and the "+25 % CS against mounted units" promotion.

UB - Menara gardens (replaces Garden) : decreased production/gold cost (250 instead of 300) ; decreased upkeep cost (1 instead of 3) ; +1 and +2 in city for each Mountain and Natural Wonder within 3 tiles of the city ; +1 , +2 and +2 on Oases and Lakes.

Honestly, even if they kept the 50% vs mounted promotion this still wouldn't be the best Tercio replacement.
I mean just compare it to the musketeer, 30 CS +15% when attacking +1 movement and ignore ZoC. I have a hard time seeing the Black Guard match that during golden ages and with the +50% vs mounted.

That garden replacement feels kinda... situational? There is nothing in the Moroccan starting-bias promoting any of those types of tiles it boosts.

UU - Aswaran (replaces Knight) : 27 CP instead of 25 CP ; has the "Armor plating" (+20 % CS when defending) and the "Ranged attack before melee" promotions (the second is lost after upgrade) ; -33 % upkeep cost.
=> Inspired by Jarula and kiwimaster's contribution

UB - Naqsh-e (replaces Stone works) : +2 Great artist points ; has a GWA slot ; when a Great Person is expended, gain +10 and +10 GAP in city (scales with ear).
=> The two UC are quite bland, but can be powerful and synergies well with the Persian UA. Tests will tell if more bonus are needed.

The knight looks fairly interesting, although I would personally not use -upkeep on any unit, it's just an extremely confusing stat with how unit maintenance works in VP.

I'm not really a fan of adding artists/writers/musicians to unique buildings, mostly because it's weird seeing them outside of guilds, and they're of limited use in cities without guilds.
Still the rest of the building isn't horribly handles, although I would personally add some yields to the building instead of those artist-points, they feel pretty weird.
Also I'm assuming the stone works replacement would be buildable in cities without stone, right?

UGP - Wojewoda/Voivode (replaces Great General) : appears each four times a policy is chosen and when an ideology is chosen for the first time ; +2 PM ; can be expended in a city to produce a great amount of food.
=> Inspired by this mod by JFD and Janboruta

UB - Barbakan (replaces Armory) : requires a Castle in the city ; +5 CP and +75 HP in city ; units in the city heals 10 HP per turn whether or not they take an action ; +2 supply cap instead of +1.
=> Inspired by this mod from mikeburnfire

The general feels kinda weak, and kinda weird truth be told.

The armory replacement feels really weird. Slowing down the production of an offensive building by tying it to a defensive building on the same techlevel. The bonuses honestly don't feel very inspiring either.

UU - Koa (replaces Swordman) : available at Sailing instead of Iron Working ; doesn't require Iron ; decreased production/gold cost (80 instead of 100) ; has the Amphibious and "Va'a tele" (when embarked, gain +1 PM, +1 sight, gain +50 % CS when defending and has a chance of withdrawing before melee) promotions
=> inspired by this mod by mikeburnfire

UB - Fale Tele (replaces Council) : +3 CP in city ; +1 and +1 from to and from the city ; from this city can traverse the oceans.
=> Inspired by this mod by Colonialist Legacies and senshidenshi.

The unique unit feels kinda fun, if it works. Maybe it's boring to have two unique melee-units however.

The council replacement I'm not sure about. It feels kinda underwhelming, which is probably because it's a council replacement. Not much wiggle-room with so early buildings.
Still I don't really know what I feel about it. Also, can't polynesian trade-units already traverse oceans from the start?

UU - Streltsy (replaces Musketman) : cheaper (-15 % cost, but I don't have the values yet, since the CBP wiki isn't complete yet) ; more CP but a little less RCP ; has the "Walking fort" (when having all PM, gains +40 % RCS when attacking) promotion.

UGP - Boyar (replaces Great General) : can be expended to build a Town ; can construct Forts and Villages ; +2 vision.
=> directly inspired by a mod by JFD and Janboruta

From experience I can tell you that defensive archery-units aren't very popular. Not really sure what PM means.

The general replacement feels kinda weird truth be told. I'm probably biased but I don't like it.
In general I'm not sure if I like Russia having two more military uniques, there's so much more to Russia than just constant warfare.

UU -Armada (replaces Corvette) : available at Gunpowder instead of Navigation ; increased production/gold cost (350 instead of 300) ; 35 CP instead of 30 ; -1 PM ; has the "earn GA points from kills" and the "Invicible" (+3 XP at the end of each turn finished in a city if the unit has all its health ; cap at 45 XP points) promotions;
=> Inspired by this mod by lincoln-lyf

UU - Encomenderos (replaces Envoy) / : Never becomes obsolete ; can be expended in an allied CS in exchange of some influence (40 influence) to obtain a great amount of and , or in a oversea city to acquire a medium amount of and .

The Armada, I've personally never liked the idea of getting bonuses for fortifying, it just feels very passive.

The envoy feels like a balancing nightmare. Also I'm not sure if I understood it correctly, but you're actually losing influence with the CS right? Weird stuff.

UB - Waag (replaces Bank) : available at Civil Service instead of Banking ; decreased production/gold cost (350 instead of 500) ; +5 CP and +50 HP in city ; 2 Merchant specialists instead of 1 ; -25 % spy steal rate in city ; +4 at Radio.
=> Inspired by this mod by mikeburnfire

UB - Oostindische Compagnie (replaces East India Company) : +5 and +5 instead of +4 ; +15 % when building Ship units in cities ; +3 and +3 per allied CS in city ; + 40 and +30 in city when taking tribute from a CS, scaling with era ; +1 , +1 and +1 in all plantations.
=> There will surely be modifications later

There is a clear problem here. Netherlands should definitely have another military unit, they are passive enough as it is. This however leads to another problem, the bank is way too defensive and imho weak to stand on it's own and the East india company (not sure why you're replacing one of the most famous east india companies with it's name translated into dutch. Also not sure why you got rid of the V in VOC), is just too weird and all over the place.
I definitely think a bank UB is the way to go, but it needs to be more fun and less of a wall.

UU - Timariotes (replaces Lancer) : slightly more powerful than the Lancer (I don't have the values yet) ; 20 % cheaper to produce/buy (I don't have the values yet) upkeep cost decreased by 33%.

UB - Sublime Porte/ Babiali (replaces National Monument) : must be built in capital city ; 1 civil servant specialist ; + 30 % GP generation in city ; 2 Great work of Writing slots (+5 and +5 GAP when themed with GWW of your civilization) instead of 1 Great Work of art slot ; +45 GAP when adopting a policy, building a city or conquering a city (scaling with era).

Really don't like the UU suggestion. First of all, why not just use the Sipahi if you're making a Lancer replacement. Second, the bonuses are all just really weak. Cavalry are powerful specialist units usually limited by strategic resources, why make them cheaper to mass-produce?

Not really sure I like the national monument either. Personally think the Ottoman need something to represent their powerful infrastructure and stability, I mean they did keep together for a really long time, especially considering how recently it was (less stable empires the closer you get to the modern age). Hammam just feels like a way better choice.

UGP - Induna (replaces Great General) : when in a city, +10 % , +10 % and reduces isolation and crime by 50 % in the city.
=> In term of combat ability, the Zulu UA makes the job for this UGP. As a consequence, I wanted to shift a little the focus of this unit to give it more economic value.
=> Inspired by this mod by mikeburnfire

UB - Iziko (replaces Amphitheater) : no maintenance cost ; +2 and +3 ; 1 Musician specialist ; +2 GMus ; has 1 GWM slot.
=> "Iziko" is a Zulu word meaning "fireplace". This was (and is still today) around it that the community would reunite to listen to songs and express their faith. Nowadays, fireplaces are where isicathamya competitions are held.
=> Even if the Zulu are, in term of gameplay, not what we can call a GP-oriented civ, I wanted to help the player diversify her/his strategy with this civ. With this UB, Zulu culture will be more strong and choosing Esthetics can be really beneficial in mid-game to make the Impi spam happen sooner.

As I've mentioned before I'm really not a fan of bonuses that wants you to keep units standing in cities, this includes great generals.


I'm all for a cultural UB for Zulu (or something stability-based to help keep conquests together) but do you really think musician specialists is the way to go? Why not just let it produce a bunch of extra culture along with something else?
By the way you can't have both musicslots as well as writingslots on the same building (the UI won't allow it, according to Gazebo) so this building would completely destroy the ability to accumulate great works of writing.