Idea/Project : Vox Populi 3rd and 4th Unique Components

[Hinin]

You asked for this...

The great prophet seems really complicated I mean I don't even understand half of what it does from reading the text. But that's probably because most of it is huehuehuehue

The presentation isn't very good. I'll rearrange it a bit.
The Eagle won't be used except if a lot of people reject the Tlatoani.

Not really a fan of the wonder either, feels like it is too based around throwing units away. The AI would probably do great with it, but that does not really make it a good wonder.

I'll base the production/culture on the units strength, and not on the era you're in.
That aside, we disagree a lot on that kind of subject (that and the value of garrisoning in general ).

The unique unit is a lot weaker than the other musket replacements.
Withdrawing can be good, but is generally not seen as fantastic. Indirect fire, while synergizing fairly well with the Iroquois UA isn't really a very good promotion, I mean it even lowers RCS further.

I'll strengthen the unit to make it more viable and try to keep the playstyle I intended it to have.

The wonder is... Fine I guess? Hard to tell really, those are a lot of yields, but it's a wonder so it's limited to one city.

I'll rework a part of the bonus to make it more interesting.

Honestly, even if they kept the 50% vs mounted promotion this still wouldn't be the best Tercio replacement.
I mean just compare it to the musketeer, 30 CS +15% when attacking +1 movement and ignore ZoC. I have a hard time seeing the Black Guard match that during golden ages and with the +50% vs mounted.

I'll strengthen it : the goal is to have a "check-point creator" defensive unit (to compensate with the highly mobile berber cavalry and to act in synergy with the kasbah), but the fact the Musketeer still has the "+50 % CS against cavalry" bonus puts it miles away from the Black guard... If I remember well, Gazebo spent some time wondering before deciding to make the bonus return.

That garden replacement feels kinda... situational? There is nothing in the Moroccan starting-bias promoting any of those types of tiles it boosts.

My experience of Morocco was that Moroccan cities makes excellent chock-points through the use of terrain and kasbahs, and so that the civ worked well in places with lakes and mountains. Because of that, I wanted to make this kind of place more attractive for the player through this UB. Time will tell (after all, it will depend a lot from the map), but I'll modify the bonus a bit to make it more stable.

The knight looks fairly interesting, although I would personally not use -upkeep on any unit, it's just an extremely confusing stat with how unit maintenance works in VP.
I'm not really a fan of adding artists/writers/musicians to unique buildings, mostly because it's weird seeing them outside of guilds, and they're of limited use in cities without guilds.
Still the rest of the building isn't horribly handles, although I would personally add some yields to the building instead of those artist-points, they feel pretty weird.
Also I'm assuming the stone works replacement would be buildable in cities without stone, right?

The unique Stone works will be usable in all cities, but I'll rework it a bit.

The general feels kinda weak, and kinda weird truth be told.
The armory replacement feels really weird. Slowing down the production of an offensive building by tying it to a defensive building on the same techlevel. The bonuses honestly don't feel very inspiring either.

It is right to say that the Voivode bonus isn't very inspiring... I'll try to find something.
I'll move the requirement from Castle to Walls and reduce the cost of the building.
The bonus is like a mini-wall + a mini hospital altogether. It may look bland, but I think it is very powerful in attack and in defense to rejuvenate your units at a higher speed than your opponent. Tests will tell...

The unique unit feels kinda fun, if it works. Maybe it's boring to have two unique melee-units however.
The council replacement I'm not sure about. It feels kinda underwhelming, which is probably because it's a council replacement. Not much wiggle-room with so early buildings.
Still I don't really know what I feel about it. Also, can't polynesian trade-units already traverse oceans from the start?

UU : The two UU don't appear at the same time, both are placed in the middle/upper part of the tech tree and, if you preserve your units through the Classical era, your two melee foot units of the Medieval era can work very well together. I really like this UU, but I would a more developed opinion on the unique promotion.
UB : A council replacement won't have a lot of bonus, that's clear. I'll see what I can do to make the bonus more interesting.
You're right about the trade units traversing oceans : because the cargo ship is considered a civilian unit always embarked and which cannot disembark, it can traverse the oceans immediately (if I'm not wrong).

From experience I can tell you that defensive archery-units aren't very popular. Not really sure what PM means.
The general replacement feels kinda weird truth be told. I'm probably biased but I don't like it.
In general I'm not sure if I like Russia having two more military uniques, there's so much more to Russia than just constant warfare.

It isn't a "defensive" unit : it is a unit which benefits from not having used a MP before attacking (by PM, I meant "Point de Mouvement", the French version of Movement Point... I wrote the term I had in my mind instead of the one understandable ).
Because of this promotion, the unit, which has less RCP at the beginning, will have a higher CV at the end if it doesn't move (or use logistics to attack two times) while also having increased CP, so increased survivability to enemy fire.

The Armada, I've personally never liked the idea of getting bonuses for fortifying, it just feels very passive.
The envoy feels like a balancing nightmare. Also I'm not sure if I understood it correctly, but you're actually losing influence with the CS right? Weird stuff.

Armada : This unit rewards long-term investment and planning before war more than simply garrisoning : it is not with 3 XP per turn that the unit will be able to heal fast through to promotions...
Encomenderos : The goal was to make a unit able to exploit foreign/oversee population. Balancing will take time, but I'm sure it could make an interesting unit to use (+ the influence you can be regained by using another envoy : it is like farming CS )

There is a clear problem here. Netherlands should definitely have another military unit, they are passive enough as it is. This however leads to another problem, the bank is way too defensive and imho weak to stand on it's own and the East india company (not sure why you're replacing one of the most famous east india companies with it's name translated into dutch. Also not sure why you got rid of the V in VOC), is just too weird and all over the place.
I definitely think a bank UB is the way to go, but it needs to be more fun and less of a wall.

I agree that the Netherlands should have another UU : I'll search more (if I remember well, JFD did a mod about the Flanders, a region of nowadays Belgium with Dutch culture)...
Concerning the bank, if I find an interesting UU, I'll keep this UB and suppress the VOC.

Really don't like the UU suggestion. First of all, why not just use the Sipahi if you're making a Lancer replacement. Second, the bonuses are all just really weak. Cavalry are powerful specialist units usually limited by strategic resources, why make them cheaper to mass-produce?
Not really sure I like the national monument either. Personally think the Ottoman need something to represent their powerful infrastructure and stability, I mean they did keep together for a really long time, especially considering how recently it was (less stable empires the closer you get to the modern age). Hammam just feels like a way better choice.

I'll change the name to Sipahi...
One thing that bothers me about the Ottomans is the fact two land UU appear at exactly the same time... Does anybody have an idea of a different UU (not a cannon please, since the Ottomans are already really strong at that kind of thing) ?
Speaking of the Sublime Porte, we could replace it with the Millet court (another Courthouse replacement ?)

As I've mentioned before I'm really not a fan of bonuses that wants you to keep units standing in cities, this includes great generals.
I'm all for a cultural UB for Zulu (or something stability-based to help keep conquests together) but do you really think musician specialists is the way to go? Why not just let it produce a bunch of extra culture along with something else?
By the way you can't have both musicslots as well as writingslots on the same building (the UI won't allow it, according to Gazebo) so this building would completely destroy the ability to accumulate great works of writing.

Once again, what you say makes sens, and I'll modify things.

Thank you for your contribution !

 

[Funak]

-stuff

Just a few things.

I don't necessarily hate Garrisons, I think garrison is its own reward, you need to do it and it reduces crime in cities. I would honestly be fine with a civ that got additional bonuses for keeping garrisons around, assuming it isn't a major focus.
What I don't like however are specific units that reward you for garrisoning them, because that just feels like you've exchanged a combat power for a infra-structure power, and at that point you might as well make the unit another building.
Also not a fan of units that are just straight up better at garrisoning because it removes or lessens the choice involved in picking a garrison. Currently you choose between a big beefy melee-unit to stack up higher defense and absorb hits made towards the city and a ranged or siege unit that trades defensive power for the ability to counterattack.

As for Ottomans, I don't necessarily think that having a unique ranged unit and a melee horseunits during the same era (the Janissary is actually unlocked at gunpowder, so it's not the same tech anymore) is that big of a problem. Yeah it's a really solid army, but it's not really an army for conquest, Muskets are fairly defensive in nature and can not match cannons for taking out cities. Lancers are just great units for hunting down enemy units and providing flanking, they can definitely still attack cities, but they're not particularly good at it.
Also, seriously, why do you hate the Hammam? There is no unique bath in the game, and it's seriously a really cool idea (even if it's not necessarily unique to the Turks)


Now that I understand what the encomenderos is I can definitely say that I don't like the idea. First of all it's pretty offensive, on the level of suggesting that the american unique unit should be a unique worker called slave labor.
Second I really don't think the AI can use this properly.
Third I'm not sure I like the idea of CS-focused abilities on Spain, they are already conquest and religion focused.

 

[Hinin]

I don't necessarily hate Garrisons, I think garrison is its own reward, you need to do it and it reduces crime in cities. I would honestly be fine with a civ that got additional bonuses for keeping garrisons around, assuming it isn't a major focus.
What I don't like however are specific units that reward you for garrisoning them, because that just feels like you've exchanged a combat power for a infra-structure power, and at that point you might as well make the unit another building.
Also not a fan of units that are just straight up better at garrisoning because it removes or lessens the choice involved in picking a garrison. Currently you choose between a big beefy melee-unit to stack up higher defense and absorb hits made towards the city and a ranged or siege unit that trades defensive power for the ability to counterattack.

On the contrary, I think having units with garrisoning bonus gives the player some new choices to make : in a war, some may consider that having a better economy is best in order to not fall behind in term of science/culture/wonder because of conflicts and, during peace periods, these units are essentially movable bonus (a solution could be to limit this kind of bonus to units with strategic resource requirement in order to make this kind of bonus the result of a real investment).

As for Ottomans, I don't necessarily think that having a unique ranged unit and a melee horse unit during the same era (the Janissary is actually unlocked at gunpowder, so it's not the same tech anymore) is that big of a problem. Yeah it's a really solid army, but it's not really an army for conquest, Muskets are fairly defensive in nature and can not match cannons for taking out cities. Lancers are just great units for hunting down enemy units and providing flanking, they can definitely still attack cities, but they're not particularly good at it.
Also, seriously, why do you hate the Hammam? There is no unique bath in the game, and it's seriously a really cool idea (even if it's not necessarily unique to the Turks)

Your arguments are good. I'll see.

Now that I understand what the encomenderos is I can definitely say that I don't like the idea. First of all it's pretty offensive, on the level of suggesting that the american unique unit should be a unique worker called slave labor.
Second I really don't think the AI can use this properly.
Third I'm not sure I like the idea of CS-focused abilities on Spain, they are already conquest and religion focused.

Being of Spanish and Amerindian descent (but I'm French... yeah, it's complicated), I am the first to promote Spanish culture and achievements, but also to speak of its darker sides, when necessary (all the facets of the history of a nation merit to be presented). The Encomienda system (please read the wikipedia page linked), even if has conducted to many many horrible and unforgivable things, has been part of Spanish society for ages, and made the Spanish empire economicaly flourishing during the 16th and 17th centuries. Because I wanted to test a unique diplomatic unit and that this aspect of Spanish history and its UA/UC were well adapted, I chose the Encomiendos.

But what you say is interesting when we look out the treatment of some of the darkest tendencies of humanity (slavery etc) in strategy games (no slavery in Civ V, huh...) : the Iroquois were known among the French settlers for their use of torture has a way to break the mind of those who would later integrate into their society (in Civ V Events and Decisions, + when enacting Mourning war against... yeah), the American mechanic of land-stealing has a pretty dark meaning if we think about it, the Mongols killed millions of people during their conquests (yeah... +GAP for conquering this CS...) etc.

It is right to say that the Encomiendos is more direct/less diluted than other UC/UA in its meaning, but, gameplay-wise, this unit, even if difficult to balance, isn't so out of place when we think about the Spanish gameplay (a lot of cities everywhere means a lot of industry, paper, and spheres of influence => adapted for a diplomatic victory) and brings interesting mechanics : essentially, you can obtain tributes of allied CS, which is normally impossible.

Once again, thank you for your contribution.
I hope I have not been offensive in this answer, and that you'll keep criticizing the UCs with your habitual verve.

 

[Hinin]

Aztecs, Iroquois, Morocco, Persia updated.
The Huns and the Celts completed.

 

[kiwimaster]

If Netherlands needs another UU, a cannon replacement would nicely reflect the Dutch specialty for sieges during the 80 years' war with Spain. Not sure how to make it unique though. Maybe make it come with a cover promotion to reflect defensive trenches dug during a siege?

An alternative suggestion is a unique civilian unit termed "sapper" that could offer increased city attack damage and protection from city bombardment for military units in adjacent tiles. If it overlaps too much with the Assyrian siege engine, perhaps it could be made more special by allowing the unit effects to stack up to 2 units?

 

[ofmiciv5]

How about to on each?

2 UA (the civ and leader is known for)
2 UU
2 UB

 

[Funak]

Being of Spanish and Amerindian descent (but I'm French... yeah, it's complicated), I am the first to promote Spanish culture and achievements, but also to speak of its darker sides, when necessary (all the facets of the history of a nation merit to be presented). The Encomienda system (please read the wikipedia page linked), even if has conducted to many many horrible and unforgivable things, has been part of Spanish society for ages, and made the Spanish empire economicaly flourishing during the 16th and 17th centuries. Because I wanted to test a unique diplomatic unit and that this aspect of Spanish history and its UA/UC were well adapted, I chose the Encomiendos.

But what you say is interesting when we look out the treatment of some of the darkest tendencies of humanity (slavery etc) in strategy games (no slavery in Civ V, huh...) : the Iroquois were known among the French settlers for their use of torture has a way to break the mind of those who would later integrate into their society (in Civ V Events and Decisions, + when enacting Mourning war against... yeah), the American mechanic of land-stealing has a pretty dark meaning if we think about it, the Mongols killed millions of people during their conquests (yeah... +GAP for conquering this CS...) etc.

It is right to say that the Encomiendos is more direct/less diluted than other UC/UA in its meaning, but, gameplay-wise, this unit, even if difficult to balance, isn't so out of place when we think about the Spanish gameplay (a lot of cities everywhere means a lot of industry, paper, and spheres of influence => adapted for a diplomatic victory) and brings interesting mechanics : essentially, you can obtain tributes of allied CS, which is normally impossible.

Once again, thank you for your contribution.
I hope I have not been offensive in this answer, and that you'll keep criticizing the UCs with your habitual verve.

I don't get offended, but I'm certain someone would.

However the point still stands that if the current suggested uniques goes live, spain will have a military/religous UA, a defensive/religious UB, two military UUs and a 'diplo'-based UU. Do you really think they can hold their own against others when pretty much all other civs have something economy or infrastructure boosting?

 

[Funak]

Aztecs, Iroquois, Morocco, Persia updated.
The Huns and the Celts completed.

huehuehue

UGP - Tlatoani (replaces Great Prophet) with, at choice, , , or : cannot be used to spread religion ; can be expanded to create an Altar.
Altar : unique Holy site, so has the later bonus associated, with an additional bonus depending on the god selected when constructed :
- Huitzilopotchli : +3 , claim adjacent tiles ;
- Tezcatlipoca : +2 and +2 , +1 and +1 for each two eras past the Ancient era ;
- Tlaloc : +3 , is considered a source of fresh water (I'll need the Guaramantes code from the Foggara), +1 to all tiles around it ;
- Huehueteotl : +3 , +10 % building in the city exploiting it, doesn't stack)
=> Maybe too powerful and hard to code, but I would like to try it out.
=> The code from the Pathfinder could be used here for when the an altar is constructed.

Now I finally get it. You're talking about 'Expending' the prophet, not Expanding it. Man, that clears things up.
Okay, here's the deal, most of these 'make a choice' thing seems to be a nightmare to actually code, not only because the AI needs to know when to use what but also because these kinds of menus just keeps messing up (unless you're planning on just having all the options directly on the prophet, not in a submenu). We actually tried to make something similar with a unique temple that when constructed had a menu pop up and you selected a bonus depending on which god the temple was dedicated to, it worked so so at best.

As far as the actual unit goes, yeah it looks kinda solid I suppose? I'm not a fan of things that are purposely not stacking, so I don't really like the huehuehue, but that's kinda a personal thing I suppose.
Also I'm not really sure how useful a unique prophet is going to be, prophets gets crazy expensive after a while, would you really get enough out of something like this?

UU - Prowler (replaces Musketman) : decreased production/gold cost ; -2 CP ; has the "Withdraw before melee" and "Indirect Fire" promotions.
=> with the Iroquois UA, this unit can be a nightmare for your enemies : if not outnumbered, it will be very hard to catch and, with spotters, will continuously attack, even if it will inflict a little less damages than the medium Musketman.

UB - Sachems Council (replaces Scrivener's Office) : +1 and +2 per 4 in the city ; + 3 Great Diplomat points (instead of 1) ; whenever a citizen is born in the empire, +10 in city (scaling with era) ; all councils gain +3 .

Looks solid I suppose. Honestly still don't think the Musket needs a lower CS in general, neither of those promotions are amazing.

UU - Black Guard (replaces Tercio) : 28 CP instead of 25 ; has the "Royal guard" (+30 % CS when fortified ; bonus doubled during ) and the "earn GAP from kills" promotions.

UB - Menara gardens (replaces Garden) : decreased production/gold cost (250 instead of 300) ; decreased upkeep cost (1 instead of 3) ; +2 ; +1 and +2 in city for each Mountain and Natural Wonder within 3 tiles of the city ; +1 , +2 and +2 on Oases and Lakes.

Still not sold on the garden but the Guard looks solid enough.

UU - Aswaran (replaces Knight) : 27 CP instead of 25 CP ; has the "Armor plating" (+20 % CS when defending) and the "Ranged attack before melee" promotions (the second is lost after upgrade).
=> Inspired by Jarula and kiwimaster's contribution

UB - Naqsh-e (replaces Stone works) : has no maintenance cost ; don't require an improved Stone/Marble/Jade/Salt near the city ; +2 and +1 ; has a GWA slot ; when a Great Person is expended, gain +10 and +10 GAP in city (scales with era).
=> The two UC are quite bland, but can be powerful and synergies well with the Persian UA. Tests will tell if more bonus are needed.

The stone works looks solid I guess, time will tell.

UU - Battering ram (replaces Catapult) : decreased production/gold cost (80 instead of 100) ; can't be upgraded ; attacks in melee ; isn't slowed in enemy territory ; has 10 CP ; cannot attack land units ; has the "+200 % CS against cities", the "Cover I" and the "Armor plating" promotions.

UCivilian - Xiongnu tribe (replaces Settler) : decreased production cost (by 30 %) ; doesn't stop growth in the city when being produced ; cannot be upgraded ;+3 PM.
=> Maybe too powerful/bland. An opinion on the matter would be welcomed
=> Inspired by this mod by TarcisioCM

Really not a fan of the battering ram. We worked hard to get the siegetower out of Assyria because of how bad the AI actually is at using it. Also these types of units have always been complete faceroll when in player hands, and that's clearly a problem.

Not sure about the settler either, seems kinda... boring? Also should Huns really get a settler? Aren't they all about conquest?

UU - Carpentom (replaces Skirmisher) : -1 PM ; available at Iron Working instead of Mathematics ; benefits from terrain defensive bonus ; has the "+25 % CS against wounded units" and the "double movement in plains and grasslands (even with forest)".

UI - Oppidum (available at Masonry) : long time of construction ; can only be constructed next to a strategic resource and not adjacent to another Oppidum or on a discovered strategic resource ; +30 % CS to units defending on the tile ; +2 /+2 , +1 /+1 /+1 if a strategic resource is later discovered on the tile, +1 for each adjacent strategic resource ; +1 to each adjacent strategic resource ;
=> Inspired by this mod by TercisioCM

Okay, I'll be completely honest with you. That description of the unique improvement sounds really confusing.
So it's a 2 food/culture tile that needs to be built next to a strategic resource which means it also gets +1hammer?

In general I really don't believe in things that gives a bonus for building something on top of a undiscovered resource, mainly because that only really boils down to dumb luck.

 

[Enginseer]

I don't get offended, but I'm certain someone would.

However the point still stands that if the current suggested uniques goes live, spain will have a military/religous UA, a defensive/religious UB, two military UUs and a 'diplo'-based UU. Do you really think they can hold their own against others when pretty much all other civs have something economy or infrastructure boosting?

If it goes live, someone has to code them. People are just theorycrafting on what is balanced until it is actually put into the test and reality, it may or may not work. I won't know.

 

[Funak]

If it goes live, someone has to code them. People are just theorycrafting on what is balanced until it is actually put into the test and reality, it may or may not work. I won't know.

I did say IF

Also theorycrafting or not, you get pretty good at judging these things after a while.

 

[Hinin]

If Netherlands needs another UU, a cannon replacement would nicely reflect the Dutch specialty for sieges during the 80 years' war with Spain. Not sure how to make it unique though. Maybe make it come with a cover promotion to reflect defensive trenches dug during a siege?
An alternative suggestion is a unique civilian unit termed "sapper" that could offer increased city attack damage and protection from city bombardment for military units in adjacent tiles. If it overlaps too much with the Assyrian siege engine, perhaps it could be made more special by allowing the unit effects to stack up to 2 units?

I acknowledge what you say, but I've already found an interesting UU (an mix between the Pikeman and the Lansquenet).

How about to on each?
2 UA (the civ and leader is known for)
2 UU
2 UB

Adding a UA for each civ will take a lot of time if we them to be interesting/balanced.
For the 2UU/2UB balance, please check the first comments on the thread : we talk a little about this subject in these.

I don't get offended, but I'm certain someone would.
However the point still stands that if the current suggested uniques goes live, spain will have a military/religous UA, a defensive/religious UB, two military UUs and a 'diplo'-based UU. Do you really think they can hold their own against others when pretty much all other civs have something economy or infrastructure boosting?

Spain has a defensive/religious building which add gold in addition to faith (so already a nice boost to economy if you build enough villages around your cities)
If Spain chooses something else than Tradition (and there are chances that it does, since the Spanish specialty is going wide and wider), the great number of cities it can have all around the map will bring a lot of gold(++)/faith/culture(+) (if Progress) or a lot of gold(+++)/culture(+)/science(+)/faith (if Authority). Spain's religion (which is nearly assured) is what compensates for its lack of stable economic gain through UB.
Following this philosophy, the Encomenderos (which, I think, will be obtainable with faith) adds a new way of giving Spain regular boosts to its economy while also making the preservation of its territorial empire a condition of its success (if you lose your CS allies and your colonies abroad, Spanish economy suffers a lot, and some of its UC become a lot less useful => having lots of cities everywhere is what make or break Spain, to my mind).

huehuehue

Cool guys don't look at explosions.

Now I finally get it. You're talking about 'Expending' the prophet, not Expanding it. Man, that clears things up.
Okay, here's the deal, most of these 'make a choice' thing seems to be a nightmare to actually code, not only because the AI needs to know when to use what but also because these kinds of menus just keeps messing up (unless you're planning on just having all the options directly on the prophet, not in a submenu). We actually tried to make something similar with a unique temple that when constructed had a menu pop up and you selected a bonus depending on which god the temple was dedicated to, it worked so so at best.
As far as the actual unit goes, yeah it looks kinda solid I suppose? I'm not a fan of things that are purposely not stacking, so I don't really like the huehuehue, but that's kinda a personal thing I suppose.
Also I'm not really sure how useful a unique prophet is going to be, prophets gets crazy expensive after a while, would you really get enough out of something like this?

It is sure that this unit will be one of the toughest to make... I'll see if I can do something to make it more simple...
Speaking of prophet cost, certain civs like the Aztecs, Byzantium or Spain can have a lot more of them during the game, simply because their faith production can sky-rocket through various means.

Looks solid I suppose. Honestly still don't think the Musket needs a lower CS in general, neither of those promotions are amazing.

Ok. I surrender on this point, but tests will tell if nerfing is necessary.

Still not sold on the garden but the Guard looks solid enough.

The stone works looks solid I guess, time will tell.

Really not a fan of the battering ram. We worked hard to get the siegetower out of Assyria because of how bad the AI actually is at using it. Also these types of units have always been complete faceroll when in player hands, and that's clearly a problem.
Not sure about the settler either, seems kinda... boring? Also should Huns really get a settler? Aren't they all about conquest?

Battering ram : Maybe giving a cap to the number of BR you can have (maybe 5 ?) can balance things for the players. From the IA side, I would say that one of the IA most preferred tactics when attacking a city is to throw resistant units at it and inflict damages as quickly as possible. In open terrain, the BR can traverse enemy territory quickly to attack cities soon after. If escorted properly with archer units and some lancers, it can do tremendous damages and show that once again the Huns rocks at conquest. After, once again, all will be a question of balancing and player skill.
Xiongnu : I wanted to increase the potential of the Hunnic UA (a very... unique UA ! ok I leave...) by granting them a early settling bonus (mostly in order to secure important locations and resources). This way, even though they don't have any UB, their economy can still be good in the Ancient era if handled well and after, during the Classical era, they can do what they do best while still having some economic backup.

Okay, I'll be completely honest with you. That description of the unique improvement sounds really confusing.
So it's a 2 food/culture tile that needs to be built next to a strategic resource which means it also gets +1hammer?
In general I really don't believe in things that gives a bonus for building something on top of a undiscovered resource, mainly because that only really boils down to dumb luck.

This description simply means that the UI gives a least 1 production, but can go higher if well placed.
The second part about bonus if one discovered strategic resource is simply to give incentive not to replace the UI with a mine or oil well since they give a lot more production in the long run. As you may have noticed, this UI doesn't get new bonus through the tech tree : your initial placement is all you have.
This UI is a reference to the Celtic achievements in metallurgy and also acts as a reminder of the fact that Gallish/Iberic/Helvetic people also belongs the Celts (since nearly all in the Celtic civ is about the Britannic Celts) and that the amount of people of Celtic descent in French society is enormous (except in the North, where is more Germanic/Frankish), hence the similarities between UIs.

If it goes live, someone has to code them. People are just theorycrafting on what is balanced until it is actually put into the test and reality, it may or may not work. I won't know.

I agree. There is always a limit to what we can predict simply through theorycrafting. Tests will reveal the mistakes (I think numerous) I've made.

 

[Funak]

Battering ram : Maybe giving a cap to the number of BR you can have (maybe 5 ?) can balance things for the players. From the IA side, I would say that one of the IA most preferred tactics when attacking a city is to throw resistant units at it and inflict damages as quickly as possible. In open terrain, the BR can traverse enemy territory quickly to attack cities soon after. If escorted properly with archer units and some lancers, it can do tremendous damages and show that once again the Huns rocks at conquest. After, once again, all will be a question of balancing and player skill.
Xiongnu : I wanted to increase the potential of the Hunnic UA (a very... unique UA ! ok I leave...) by granting them a early settling bonus (mostly in order to secure important locations and resources). This way, even though they don't have any UB, their economy can still be good in the Ancient era if handled well and after, during the Classical era, they can do what they do best while still having some economic backup.

You're misunderstanding me. The AI is worthless at handling BR, you can block them off with any unit and the AI will get stuck because they can't attack with the rams. This used to happen a whole lot back in Vanilla.

Still don't think a settler is the way to go.

 

[Hinin]

Songhai completed.

 

[Funak]

Songhai completed.

UGP - Jalla (replaces Great Merchant and Great Diplomat) : appears whenever a GM or a GD is born ; can conduct a diplomatic mission which combines the effects of the GM one and the GD one (so +100 influence for you, -100 influence for the other major civs, brings a lot of gold and triggers a long WLTKD in all your cities).

UB - Kalansoba (replaces University) : +15 % generation in the city ; a quarter of the income from the originating from this city is converted into (in addition to the normal income caused by technological gaps between civs) ; +2 if in the capital city or in a city connected to the capital city.

Thanks to its UU and its UA, Songhai already has the means to perform well military speaking. Because Askia was more an administrator than a warrior and that the Songhai empire was a thriving center of both commerce and scolarship, I chose these UC. Tell me if you disagree, of course, and I'll see what could be better.

Honestly, the Jalla just sounds like a suckier version of the merchant of Venice. I get that it can't be as good as the MoV, but making it do almost the same thing but worse just makes it look boring.

A unique university seems fine.

 

[Hinin]

Honestly, the Jalla just sounds like a suckier version of the merchant of Venice. I get that it can't be as good as the MoV, but making it do almost the same thing but worse just makes it look boring.

I'll modify things to make it more interesting. The Jallas were merchants designated by the state to conduct transactions of important goods, like gold or slaves. They benefited from the profusion of intellectuals during the XVIth century in the Songhai empire and were believed to have knowledgeable and skillful in numerous domains.

 

[Hinin]

Songhai updated.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Allrighty, I shall give things another stab. Lessee...

On a general note, until you get this thing up-and-running, I'd stay away from things that stray too far from what UC's already do(or someone else has modded such a thing elsewhere) - if an ability makes you think "I wonder how tricky this is actually get to work" (ie. it has no similar precedent), it might be worth rethinking. The unique prophet for Aztec (and some other unique GP replacements), getting copy of the luxuries for Arabia's trade units, those kind of things.

Also I agree with Funak on garrisons.

America: Trailblazer seems good, but then I realized one thing: automatically claiming tiles is mildly in conflict with the UA: you generally want to have cheap tiles around to buy to get that production boost. If your settler claims a ton of turf when settling, that's a lost opportunity. Not sure if it's really that big a problem though, just a ponderment.

Arabia: Trade units causing you to have a temporary copy luxuries of the city you trade with seems 1.) relatively pointless, given how luxury happiness works in VP and 2.) probably not easy to implement. Cheaper trade units that get more yields is already fairly good.

Babylon: Kibitium's 'Legacy' promotion seems relatively narrow, particularly when it's not on a unit that can easily stick around to a spot during conflict. This might be one of those places where just good ol' boring 'more flanking damage' or similar might work better.

Carthage: Sophet seems like it could use a small 'extra': Medic I, extra movement, 20% buff instead of 15%, that kind of thing. Just straight replacing the two uniques doesn't seem enough.

China: Artificers seems okay-ish, but good luck finding a fitting model.

England: White Tower I'd probably move a tech up to Machinery; it feels odd to have it be on a tech tree so you have to research a different tech on same tier (Chivalry) first to be able to build it.

Ethiopia: Tekula suffers from the 'potential super-unit' problem that happens when two uniques with promotions are on the same unit line; namely, it's something that's easy for a player to abuse, but hard for AI to prioritise keeping these units alive. The non-stackiness of the unique also rubs me the wrong way, a bit. I'd rather it weaker but stacking, if you want to keep this Pikeman replacement.

Greece: Strategos is another GP replacement that is just more GP in one, essentially. Boring and relatively pointless.

Korea: I like the idea of unique Constabulary, but outright making tech stealing impossible feels bad way to go about it. Better reduction (say, 45-50%) and better yields to encourage building it earlier, I think. +2 culture with another +1 culture/+2 gold if said city has capital connection?

Morocco: Menara Gardens seems fine... except the yields seem a bit random. Either just give it stronger base yields, or have the terrain bonuses applying be relevant to Morocco's start bias. Not much use getting big bonus yields on things you're not exactly likely to have around. Black Guard in turn seems just... a bit weak but I dunno.

Persia: Aswaran I suppose I don't have much against... except how many Knight replacements do we want? Kind of loses the uniqueness of the unique if dozen civs have their own Knight.

Poland: Can you explain what this actually means: "appears each four times a policy is chosen and when an ideology is chosen for the first time ; +2 PM ; can be expended in a city to produce a great amount of food and make it regain half its life."? As it is, I don't get it.
Also, defensive armory is not exactly very interesting. Pretty sure no one will go 'woo, reaching Steel, I get to have more hitpoints and defense'. Not when the option is to go Chivalry and get Ducal Stable, anyway.

Polynesia: does the UU's promotion allow it to withdraw only when embarked, or anytime? I hope just when embarked, melee units that might move away from where you have them creates problems.

Russia: Boyar... same problem as before - it doesn't actually do much. Being able to build a Town when you're building a Citadel (essentially) is nothing write home about. Being able to build Forts and Villages... eh. I think Russia could use a building, something that uses the amount of turf you have (directly or indirectly). Buffing Villages, Farms or improved strategic resources around the city; UW increasing tile improvement rate/reducing road maintenance, maybe something along those lines.
Streltsy is fine, if not very interesting.

Songhai: Jalla seems a mess to balance (or have in a concise tooltip in-game). I do like the idea of using monopolies to something, though.
Also: international trade route buffing to a civ that regularly goes to war (and thus likely soon has next to no such trade routes) seems counterproductive.

I have to go now, but will return to write about the rest later.

 

[Funak]

Allrighty, I shall give things another stab. Lessee...

On a general note, until you get this thing up-and-running, I'd stay away from things that stray too far from what UC's already do(or someone else has modded such a thing elsewhere) - if an ability makes you think "I wonder how tricky this is actually get to work" (ie. it has no similar precedent), it might be worth rethinking. The unique prophet for Aztec (and some other unique GP replacements), getting copy of the luxuries for Arabia's trade units, those kind of things.

Also I agree with Funak on garrisons.

America: Trailblazer seems good, but then I realized one thing: automatically claiming tiles is mildly in conflict with the UA: you generally want to have cheap tiles around to buy to get that production boost. If your settler claims a ton of turf when settling, that's a lost opportunity. Not sure if it's really that big a problem though, just a ponderment.

Arabia: Trade units causing you to have a temporary copy luxuries of the city you trade with seems 1.) relatively pointless, given how luxury happiness works in VP and 2.) probably not easy to implement. Cheaper trade units that get more yields is already fairly good.

Babylon: Kibitium's 'Legacy' promotion seems relatively narrow, particularly when it's not on a unit that can easily stick around to a spot during conflict. This might be one of those places where just good ol' boring 'more flanking damage' or similar might work better.

Carthage: Sophet seems like it could use a small 'extra': Medic I, extra movement, 20% buff instead of 15%, that kind of thing. Just straight replacing the two uniques doesn't seem enough.

China: Artificers seems okay-ish, but good luck finding a fitting model.

England: White Tower I'd probably move a tech up to Machinery; it feels odd to have it be on a tech tree so you have to research a different tech on same tier (Chivalry) first to be able to build it.

Ethiopia: Tekula suffers from the 'potential super-unit' problem that happens when two uniques with promotions are on the same unit line; namely, it's something that's easy for a player to abuse, but hard for AI to prioritise keeping these units alive. The non-stackiness of the unique also rubs me the wrong way, a bit. I'd rather it weaker but stacking, if you want to keep this Pikeman replacement.

Greece: Strategos is another GP replacement that is just more GP in one, essentially. Boring and relatively pointless.

Korea: I like the idea of unique Constabulary, but outright making tech stealing impossible feels bad way to go about it. Better reduction (say, 45-50%) and better yields to encourage building it earlier, I think. +2 culture with another +1 culture/+2 gold if said city has capital connection?

Morocco: Menara Gardens seems fine... except the yields seem a bit random. Either just give it stronger base yields, or have the terrain bonuses applying be relevant to Morocco's start bias. Not much use getting big bonus yields on things you're not exactly likely to have around. Black Guard in turn seems just... a bit weak but I dunno.

Persia: Aswaran I suppose I don't have much against... except how many Knight replacements do we want? Kind of loses the uniqueness of the unique if dozen civs have their own Knight.

Poland: Can you explain what this actually means: "appears each four times a policy is chosen and when an ideology is chosen for the first time ; +2 PM ; can be expended in a city to produce a great amount of food and make it regain half its life."? As it is, I don't get it.
Also, defensive armory is not exactly very interesting. Pretty sure no one will go 'woo, reaching Steel, I get to have more hitpoints and defense'. Not when the option is to go Chivalry and get Ducal Stable, anyway.

Polynesia: does the UU's promotion allow it to withdraw only when embarked, or anytime? I hope just when embarked, melee units that might move away from where you have them creates problems.

Russia: Boyar... same problem as before - it doesn't actually do much. Being able to build a Town when you're building a Citadel (essentially) is nothing write home about. Being able to build Forts and Villages... eh. I think Russia could use a building, something that uses the amount of turf you have (directly or indirectly). Buffing Villages, Farms or improved strategic resources around the city; UW increasing tile improvement rate/reducing road maintenance, maybe something along those lines.
Streltsy is fine, if not very interesting.

Songhai: Jalla seems a mess to balance (or have in a concise tooltip in-game). I do like the idea of using monopolies to something, though.
Also: international trade route buffing to a civ that regularly goes to war (and thus likely soon has next to no such trade routes) seems counterproductive.

I have to go now, but will return to write about the rest later.

Pretty much agree with most of what you said.
All the 2 in 1 GPs just seems boring and honestly weak. I mean yeah there's some synergy to a great general that can be expended for city-state influence, but honestly just why?

Poland still looks about as boring as the current Poland does, so that's consistency I guess?

I'm still really opposed to Carthage having 3 unique units available at the same time, it just seems like unnecessary power for a civ that's already extremely frontloaded.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Funak: agreed on Carthage's pile of uniques around early Classical, probably warrants another look.

Anyway, to continue where I left off:

Spain: still not a fan of rewarding being passive, the game is usually enough 'waiting around' as it is.

The Aztec: Not a fan of the Tlatoani - you don't usually end up making that many Holy Sites in a game (although I guess a few more if you can't spread with this particular prophet). You'd probably end up with one or two of each of these if they change depending on time. Also I think Aztecs would rather want for a unique non-melee unit somewhere in classical to renaissance; their religious strenght is in near-guarantee of getting a religion if they war from turn 1, and usually getting pretty good belief picks.

The Heroic Epic replacement seems flavorful... but a bit boring. It's also bit backwards when it gets the most yields when you fail instead of when you succeed.

The Celts: Carpentom seems... well, fine. Though it could be changed to being an earlier Heavy Skirmisher, simply to avoid them having overly strong early Classical like Carthage above, as Pictish Warrior is already quite strong at Mining.
Oppidum seems iffy due to the RNG nature of strategic resource placement.

The Huns: Battering Ram seems okay on paper, but as noted the computer is not inclined to use the thing correctly. Unique Settler is also not much good for someone who'd rather just let other build cities and then take them. The Huns probably want a UB somewhere, though not sure what.

The Iroquois: Prowler is probably fine being available at Chemistry and being at normal CS, it's not that strong (though the potential is there, remember that not all of map is forest unless you're intentionally playing that kind of map). Sachems Council seems fine though, possibly quite strong given they also have Longhouse very early on. All the food at start, heh.

The Mayas and the Ottomans, I actually rather like for both their UC's.

Ditto for The Netherlands, rounds up nicely for the banker.

The Shoshone: Comanche Rider's ability is nice, and could be called 'Raiders' Spoils'; Hunting Pound seems slightly too good for that early a UB; could probably drop the extra gold on resources (maybe just give +2 food on said resources instead).

The Zulus: As said before about bonuses for garrisoning, at that point might as well have a UB with similar benefits - though in this case I think Zulus want to go for another military unit instead, given Iziko. Iziko, incidentally, I would probably have production instead of musician slots/points - sometimes just having 'boring' raw yields might be an answer.

Venice: Galleoni (/Great Galleas, dangit ) is good. Mazor Consegio slightly less so. I think Venice could actually use a yield-heavy(food, gold, production) Chancery replacement instead (so that puppets actually end up prioritizing it a bit). Think of it as a locally extended branch of the Capital's power in the puppet city. Given Venice's nature, said unique building can actually be fairly strong without being broken.

 

[Hinin]

Being a law student, I have some finals approaching (+ the French presidential elections tomorrow and the fact that I'll help counting the ballots), and so the update frequency will drop a little in the next days. All you say is well said : a majority of what you see now is only some sketchy ideas, and a lot of things will have to change before the "coding phase" can begin.
Thank you for all the constructive argumentation.