Ideas and concepts for new resources (and a reworked lumber mill)

[Zaarin]

> Tradition vs Efficiency
I would prefer to keep the districts that have Workshops separated from the ones with Factories.
- Neighborhood, early game district that include Well/Fountain (+pop), Sewer (+health) and also a Workshop that produce a specific kind of luxury like Ceramic, Textile, Jewelry, Cosmetic, etc. Each kind have huge bonus from suitable resources on the same city like Silk, Wool, Cotton and Fur for Textile.
On late game the yields of Neighborhoods are surpassed by the Industrial Sector but the former still has the advanteges of produce way less polution and have bonus to culture when next to Touristic Resort.
- Industrial Zone, being a separated late game help to represent the massive urbanization but also allow to have a Factory of different kinds like Electronic, Automotive, Pharmaceutical, etc. Even also the ones that produce synthetic version of natural resources like Sulfur, Niter, Rubber, etc.

I love this idea.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

- Neighborhood, early game district that include Well/Fountain (+pop), Sewer (+health) and also a Workshop that produce a specific kind of luxury like Ceramic, Textile, Jewelry, Cosmetic, etc. Each kind have huge bonus from suitable resources on the same city like Silk, Wool, Cotton and Fur for Textile.
On late game the yields of Neighborhoods are surpassed by the Industrial Sector but the former still has the advanteges of produce way less pollution and have bonus to culture when next to Touristic Resort.

Sounds similar to a Medieval Guild town, which could also give benefits for nearby Commercial Hubs.
I think I'd give it a Guildhall building which produces the specific type of luxury, with maybe some sort of government/economy bonuses? The Workshop could just be a bit of production, like it is currently, and the sewer could give both extra population and health.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Sounds similar to a Medieval Guild town, which could also give benefits for nearby Commercial Hubs.
I think I'd give it a Guildhall building which produces the specific type of luxury, with maybe some sort of government/economy bonuses? The Workshop could just be a bit of production, like it is currently, and the sewer could give both extra population and health.

I think Guildhall could work but as the late building that provide the extra production bonus. I mean most people relate Guild to the medieval model (even if there are older equivalents). Guildhall point to an already rich and successfull community that probably started doing meetings on someone house or any open place, so I think it must be the final upgrade not the first.
While the Workshop is needed to be available since Ancient Era to even produce the luxury. Other point is that the different kinds of workshop are most justified to be visually and even sonorously distinctive.

The other building I was thinking to add is some small temple/shrine related to both a descentralized religion (culture) mechanic and the immigration of POPs with identity. The idea is that build these small religious buildings appeal to population with the same religion/culture.
This also could be related to specific POP with some "5 Stars" system that add value to the product, for example if another civ have a Theocratic government repressing minorities that could be a nice chance to attract some "5 stars" minority craftsmen for the best Textiles.

About the Commercial Hub definitely agree, those districts next to each other must give some nice benefits.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I like these ideas and list of resources but would prefer to simplify, clarify and justify some points.

> Domesticated Varieties related to Climate-Terrain and their relation to Health
Have different kinds of crops and cattle that appear in different environments is justified if each one have bonus for specific climate/terrain. Examples Rice in humid or Sorghum in arid, Llamas in mountains and Reindeer in cold.
Health is one of the most obviously ignored elements on CIV, introduce new varieties of food in a city must help to improve population health, on the other hand domestic animals could be a source of new diseases.

> Tradition vs Efficiency
I would prefer to keep the districts that have Workshops separated from the ones with Factories.
- Neighborhood, early game district that include Well/Fountain (+pop), Sewer (+health) and also a Workshop that produce a specific kind of luxury like Ceramic, Textile, Jewelry, Cosmetic, etc. Each kind have huge bonus from suitable resources on the same city like Silk, Wool, Cotton and Fur for Textile.
On late game the yields of Neighborhoods are surpassed by the Industrial Sector but the former still has the advanteges of produce way less pollution and have bonus to culture when next to Touristic Resort.
- Industrial Zone, being a separated late game help to represent the massive urbanization but also allow to have a Factory of different kinds like Electronic, Automotive, Pharmaceutical, etc. Even also the ones that produce synthetic version of natural resources like Sulfur, Niter, Rubber, etc.

> Cultural related resources
Many of the resources you have as Rare and Exceptional are good material to be linked to specific City States and Barbarians to add flavor to them, like Cloves for Ternate and Bison for Lakota.

All of these ideas would work in a Civ7 that is based on Civ6's mechanics, so I approve!

Specifically the part about Health and Hygiene being reintroduced *and* affected by which resources and buildings you have available in your city. Civ 6's brand of Climate change rings a bit hollow when the impacts of environmental pollution are as minor as they are now.

 

[Lord Lakely]

the immigration of POPs with identity.

On my wishlist of things I want to see added in Civ7, specifically cultural and religious identity.

The other building I was thinking to add is some small temple/shrine related to both a descentralized religion (culture) mechanic and the immigration of POPs with identity. The idea is that build these small religious buildings appeal to population with the same religion/culture.

Religion should play a larger role in attracting more craftsmen, specialists and pilgrims to your cities than it does already. This is good way to start it.

Specifically, I feel like Relics should attract more tourists from countries that you share a religion with, and fewer from all others. There's no limit to the distance Pilgrims are willing to travel to reach the Holy City of their faith and experience the catharsis of being at the heart of the core beliefs they've followed for most of their lives.

As for attracting more talented citizens, I personally think this should be either a Civ Ability (Arabia is a very good candidate for this) or a religious tenet (for instance, Jewish Temples historically served as places of trade as well, attracting Merchants). Not all religions have such a history, so it would be strange to have it apply to everyone.

This also could be related to specific POP with some "5 Stars" system that add value to the product, for example if another civ have a Theocratic government repressing minorities that could be a nice chance to attract some "5 stars" minority craftsmen for the best Textiles.

About the Commercial Hub definitely agree, those districts next to each other must give some nice benefits.

Alternatively, values of crafted products can be tied back to the quality level of the resources used to produce them. Mechanically this can be coded in by by giving each resource a Quality modifier and appropriate tags.

For instance to create a set of Clothes, you'll need a textile to produce the clothes from, and a form of pigment to dye them in the right colours. In terms of coding the equation could look like this: [Textile Resource ] *[Enhancer] => [Clothing Product]
In this example: Cotton, Sheep, Furs and Silk would all be potential textiles, each with a different base value.
Enhancers would be resources that you can add optionally to the product to make it more valuable, improving the gold and amenities you'll get. For clothes I am largely thinking of Dyes, but it can be a precious metal (such as Gold thread), pearls or even gems to make really expensive robes.

The implementation of this should simple where you can alter the resources used with a few clicks (and the default always uses the most valuable resources available, if possible).

The chains should be kept simple and intuitive because you don't want your game of Civ to turn into Anno.

Then tying into the tradition part - I would advocate adding Cultural Heritage as a mechanic to the game, where you can spend Culture to improve your traditional resources and make them world famous. That way, you can lure Tourists to your cities without needing to build Wonders or create Great Works, and earn Gold on the side from increased sales.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

On my wishlist of things I want to see added in Civ7, specifically cultural and religious identity.

"Religious Identity" is already in the game (sort of) in the number of Followers of a Religion in each city.
"Cultural Identity" could be handled the same way, in the number of people in each city following your, or some other, Culture/Social/Civic combination. This also opens up a 'mini-game' regarding Loyalty and Internal Resistance to your central government and governing group among the Cities and Population, and should require some reaction/action on the gamer's part to variations and multiplicities of Cultural Identity within the Civ.

Religion should play a larger role in attracting more craftsmen, specialists and pilgrims to your cities than it does already. This is good way to start it.

Specifically, I feel like Relics should attract more tourists from countries that you share a religion with, and fewer from all others. There's no limit to the distance Pilgrims are willing to travel to reach the Holy City of their faith and experience the catharsis of being at the heart of the core beliefs they've followed for most of their lives.

As for attracting more talented citizens, I personally think this should be either a Civ Ability (Arabia is a very good candidate for this) or a religious tenet (for instance, Jewish Temples historically served as places of trade as well, attracting Merchants). Not all religions have such a history, so it would be strange to have it apply to everyone..

More generally, Religious Tenets should have much more comprehensive effects on your Civ and its Culture, especially in the first half of the game or so. Religion was, in many ways, the way people were identified and how they identified themselves within a society. There should be religious tenets, either choosable or, more likely, that generate as a result of other choices made, which reflect a society's openness to new people and things or internal cohesion - and possibly force actions on the government's (gamer's) part to maintain that cohesion or openness or lack of it.

Making these things innate in a Civ is simple, but usually wrong. Arabia was open to all kinds of new people and ideas specifically because of religious and cultural practices at one time - and lost most of that under subsequent religious and cultural developments.

Not only Jewish Temples, classical Greek temples served many of the functions of modern Banks - they made loans, and acted as safe depositories for coin and bullion, an Economic Attribute of the religious structure never, to my knowledge, acknowledged or modeled in games. Again, showing how variable the effects of Religious Tenets could and should be.

Alternatively, values of crafted products can be tied back to the quality level of the resources used to produce them. Mechanically this can be coded in by by giving each resource a Quality modifier and appropriate tags.

For instance to create a set of Clothes, you'll need a textile to produce the clothes from, and a form of pigment to dye them in the right colours. In terms of coding the equation could look like this: [Textile Resource ] *[Enhancer] => [Clothing Product]
In this example: Cotton, Sheep, Furs and Silk would all be potential textiles, each with a different base value.
Enhancers would be resources that you can add optionally to the product to make it more valuable, improving the gold and amenities you'll get. For clothes I am largely thinking of Dyes, but it can be a precious metal (such as Gold thread), pearls or even gems to make really expensive robes.

The implementation of this should simple where you can alter the resources used with a few clicks (and the default always uses the most valuable resources available, if possible).

The chains should be kept simple and intuitive because you don't want your game of Civ to turn into Anno..

You would also have to distinguish between goods/Resources for Trade and those for personal use. Natural dyes were not, in game terms, resources of any kind, they were too universally available in one form or the other. Only the 'expensive stuff' should show up on the map or in any Resource system.

BUT the basic trend in all resources should be the steady replacement of Natural Resources with manufactured or 'enhanced' Resources.
Clothing wasn't a mass trade item - until Textile Mills could turn out masses of Cheap Clothing from Wool, Linen, or Cotton (mostly) at the beginning of the Industrial Era and in mass quantities both undercut every other clothing production in the world and also fueled the prosperity of Holland and England in the 18th century.
Natural Dyes were largely replaced by artificial (factory-produced from Coal or Oil) dyes and pigments in the Industrial Era - and enhanced almost everything else as they were applied to clothing, wallpaper, walls and buildings, etc.
Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead and almost any other ore deposits other than Silver and Gold had very little intrinsic value - until they were turned into weapons, tools, machinery, and other manufactured goods in Workshops or factories.
Clay is about the most common 'raw material' imaginable, but turned into highly decorated painted pottery fired in high temperature kilns it became Artwork that Athens and Corinth both made a very good profit out of by selling that Black and Red Ware pottery all over the Mediterranean basin

 

[Lord Lakely]

"Religious Identity" is already in the game (sort of) in the number of Followers of a Religion in each city.
"Cultural Identity" could be handled the same way, in the number of people in each city following your, or some other, Culture/Social/Civic combination. This also opens up a 'mini-game' regarding Loyalty and Internal Resistance to your central government and governing group among the Cities and Population, and should require some reaction/action on the gamer's part to variations and multiplicities of Cultural Identity within the Civ.

Total agree. Loyalty is a good first step in the right direction, but managing your citizens and protecting your empire from *internal* strife should be a major point in Civ. Pity Civ 5 handled it as poorly as it did.

More generally, Religious Tenets should have much more comprehensive effects on your Civ and its Culture, especially in the first half of the game or so. Religion was, in many ways, the way people were identified and how they identified themselves within a society. There should be religious tenets, either choosable or, more likely, that generate as a result of other choices made, which reflect a society's openness to new people and things or internal cohesion - and possibly force actions on the government's (gamer's) part to maintain that cohesion or openness or lack of it.

For religion, I feel like Tenets should be less uniform, true. Each Orthodox Church (not refering to the buildings) has small differences, but they're still considered a part of the Eastern Orthodox Denomination of Christianity. In Civ though, all Eastern Orthodox Civs follow the same path blindly with no variation - in my language we have a great word for this: "Eenheidsworst" - meaning: Unity Sausage.

Religion is should not be a unity sausage. Players that are part of a religion should be able to make small tweaks to Tenets once converted - however, not too many - if they do, they're branded heretics and they scism away from their Mother religion. This basic principle is what gave us the Anglican Church (which, while technically Protestant, is very different from other Protestant denominations such as Lutheranism and Calvinism), and caused the various denominations of Islam to resent each other. Scisms, religous integrity and internal religious strife should all be in the game, in some form.

Civ needs to shift away from their All Religions Can Be Identical nonsense for flavour reasons as well. It makes every religion feel milquetoast and samey, nothing more than a hollow shell containing the same skeleton, as some tenets are more powerful than others. The pool of Tenets should, to some extent be limited by which religion you found, mimicking that religion's development through history.

Maintaining player agency is just as important though. Sid Meier's Civilization is a game about creating your own Civilization within the confines set by the game and your map - but there should be some control by the players in how they shape their identity (and by association, their religion), either by adding new tenets to their Church or by reforming (tailoring) tenets to their Civilization's strengths and needs. Each religion should have a toolbox of Tenets available based on history, but the player should be able to pick amongst those based on need. A Civ's ability should, at least offer players guidance towards what tenets their Civ would normally be gravitating towards.

But that's perhaps a discussion worthy of a different topic.

Making these things innate in a Civ is simple, but usually wrong. Arabia was open to all kinds of new people and ideas specifically because of religious and cultural practices at one time - and lost most of that under subsequent religious and cultural developments.

Counterpoint: You pick a leader from that time period and make it their ability - that would fit the zeitgeist of the time period you're trying to emulate.

Not only Jewish Temples, classical Greek temples served many of the functions of modern Banks - they made loans, and acted as safe depositories for coin and bullion, an Economic Attribute of the religious structure never, to my knowledge, acknowledged or modeled in games. Again, showing how variable the effects of Religious Tenets could and should be.

As someone who recently played through Assassin's Creed Odyssey, yes, the importance of religion in a society usually deemed secular by Civ Standards, was quite palpable. Maybe some Tenets should be Civ specific instead of Religion specific?

You would also have to distinguish between goods/Resources for Trade and those for personal use. Natural dyes were not, in game terms, resources of any kind, they were too universally available in one form or the other. Only the 'expensive stuff' should show up on the map or in any Resource system.

In the Clothing equation i posted, just leave the Enhancer slot blank. There's your natural dye, all accosted for.

BUT the basic trend in all resources should be the steady replacement of Natural Resources with manufactured or 'enhanced' Resources.

Making natural resources depletable would help,for starters.

Clothing wasn't a mass trade item - until Textile Mills could turn out masses of Cheap Clothing from Wool, Linen, or Cotton (mostly) at the beginning of the Industrial Era and in mass quantities both undercut every other clothing production in the world and also fueled the prosperity of Holland and England in the 18th century.

Clothing maybe wasn't but woven textiles were. When I say "Clothing" I mostly mean everything related to it, as splitting it up between types of cloth and types of apparel turns the game too much into Anno. (a great game in its own right, but it's not Civ) I've reworked resources plenty of time for my Civ7 vision and it's really easy to head to wn that rabbit hole if you're not careful.

Expanding a resource system into a craftable products and synthetic resource replacement systems as you mentioned is a dream, but also dipping into XPac material. The base game should probably just have the bare bones of the mechanics that you can build upon later. (Doesn't mean we can't think and spec and dream about it ourselves. We are CivFanatics, after all. )