Ideologies

Sout Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and lately China share the same reliance I think. The main distinctive feature for Eastern I think is the more collectivist social and economic structure where the group is more important than the individual. Whereas the Western culture has a very individualistic approach. And in that case, IMO Japan would be more Eastern than Western.
 
Another thing I have been wondering about lately is if we should represent African American population by having African ideology in the cities at the American coasts? Probably not...what do you think? But there should definately be some Amerindian at the Mexican border and in California.

While it is sad to admit this, Africa does not seem to have any unifying culture on the whole, which has led to a great deal of unnecessary bloodshed. That doesn't mean you shouldn't make a pan-African ideology, because many of the overseas African peoples do support such a movement. So perhaps we'd need to make African ideology one of those that rarely exists on its own. Johannesburg would have both the African and Western ideologies present, while Timbuktu would have both the African and Islamic ideologies present, Madrid would contain Western, Islamic, and African ideologies, and it would coexist with multiple ideologies in many American cities, though primarily Western and Jewish.

I agree that having multiple ideologies coexist in cities would be the best way to avoid an excessive amount of extra, less-important ideologies. So yes, New York and London would probably contain all ideologies, with certain other cities having at least more than one. For example, Beijing and Kyoto would just have the Oriental ideology, but Shanghai and Tokyo would have both the Oriental and Western ideologies. Istanbul and Berlin would have both the Western and Islamic ideologies, but Riyadh would only have the Islamic ideology and Athens should only have the Western. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)
 
That sounds about right to me Bahmo.

If anyone who isn't doing anything else right now wants to volunteer to start on the XML for the ideologies, please do. Most of the team members are busy working on other areas at the moment, so unless we get some new blood, it may be weeks before someone gets a chance to do this. :-(

This would be a good place for a new team member to start. ;-)
 
I'm more than happy with that distribution, but I'm concerned about Japan on its own out there; why is it not covered partly in the Buddhist region?
 
Maybe I didn't point that out clearly enough but I'm not proposing to use the ideologies exactly as in Huntington's map. In fact, earlier in this thread and I think in the old w2k8 forum we narrowed it down to X ideologies, which are the ones I made icons for:
African
Amerindian (which roughly replaces Huntington's "Latin American")
Eastern (wich merges Huntington's "Buddhist", "Sinic" and "Japanese", so Japan won't be on its own)
Hindu
Jewish
Muslim
Slavic (roughly Huntington's "Orthodox", of course then without Greece)
Western

Later today, I'll (hopefully) post a map or a list with my suggestion for state ideology distribution.
 
OK. Here's my suggestion concerning state ideologies. All this does not mean that no other ideology can be present (like Slavic in the East of EU). It just means that this specific ideology is the civ's state ideology. Feel free to criticize... :)

Spoiler :



I left minor and neutral states unassigned. We'll have to discuss about which state ideology they should have.


BTW. I might be able to look into XML for ideologies. But not earlier than next week. And I might need some advice, since this will be my first piece of XML.
 

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hey buddy, looks good, thanks. Most of it looks perfect to me (but what do I know), but offhand I would question whether Brazil and Argentina should be primarily western.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I recognize that you are doing state ideologies here, and since they are USA, theirs is obviously western. But, those areas shouldn't have the ideology itself in their cities... I suspect you weren't planning on them having it, but I just thought I would say it.

It would be great if you could do some XML work towards these. I will gladly help guide you getting started, anything you need. :D
 
hey buddy, looks good, thanks. Most of it looks perfect to me (but what do I know), but offhand I would question whether Brazil and Argentina should be primarily western.

I think Argentina should indeed be mainly western, Brazil might flip anytime.
Here are some statistics concerning population groups of both countries. Of course we shouldn't let just the ethnic groups decide but it's an important factor, I think.

Spoiler :

Brazil:
49.7% White
42.6% Pardo (Brown), which are actually a mixture of Black, White and Amerindian people
6.9% Black
0.5% Asian
0.3% Amerindian

Argentina
86% European (Italian, Spanish, German)
7% Mestizo
2% Amerindian
4% Other[1] [2]


As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I recognize that you are doing state ideologies here, and since they are USA, theirs is obviously western. But, those areas shouldn't have the ideology itself in their cities... I suspect you weren't planning on them having it, but I just thought I would say it.

Totally right. :goodjob:
 
ok cool. Where did you get that info? Very handy for this.
 
On wikipedia. In each state's article there's a fact box on the right side that contains ethnic groups.
 
South Africa could maybe be flipped to Western, apart from that its all good.
 
This Ideology concept is interesting. And based on Huntington's suggestion is a brilliant idea, great job ianinsane :goodjob:

One suggestion: Would it be worth to have Jewish on it's own? We took out Japan because it is on its own, but Japan is at least 10 times greater than Israel...

Alternatively, would it be more interesting if we take out Jewish, and use that extra slot to split the West into Anglo-Saxon vs. Continental Europe? Then Israel's ideology can be represented by the Anglo-Saxon due it's close relationship with the US.
 
I'd say that (and as a Non-Jew), that the Jewish ideology is probably stronger than anyone's. It is the REASON there is an Israel and those people continue to live there and carve out a life for themselves in the midst of people surrounding them who hate them.

I'm really don't know and can't speak as if I know...but it would seem to me that the Jewish foundation in Israel plays as one of the biggest roles in modern world dynamics.
 
Couldn't the same applies to Japan? or Even, Hong Kong? :)

I'm not saying Israel is not special, and that's why we have blown it up on the map and represent it as a civ even it is such a small nation. We have 52 civs and adding Israel as a civ doesn't seems too imbalance. But we are talking about only 8 ideologies, giving an ideology to a 2 city state is really imbalance I think.

Just checking Huntington's original idea, Jewish is actually not an independent ideology.

Think about playability as well, Israel would be best to have the same ideology with US so the ally can be sustained.

Anyway, I can of course live with having Jewish as proposed, I just though it would be good to have the slot with a better use, mainly from gameplay perspective. I am not contributing in this aspect so don't worry about me if it doesn't making sense :)
 
Heh...I really don't have much of an idea.

I'm not Jewish...but the Jews seem to make a HUGE deal of Israel, even living there when they are surrounded by people that absolutely do not want them there.

I really don't care either way. Was only playing devil's advocate.
 
Both of you guys are making too much sense.
 
I'd suggest to give it a try with having Jewish as its own ideology and not to split Western. If it causes realism/gameplay problems we can change it after testing or for the next version.

The reason why I'd like to include Israel is basically the same thing Mattygerst said. The Zionist movement has had such a strong impact on world relations how they are now so I think it deserves it's own ideology. Israel will be the only civ with Jewish state ideology but Israeli cities surely won't be the only ones with Jewish ideology present. It would also be present in some French, Canadian, Russian, Argentinian, British and US cities.

I wouldn't like to split Western because contintental and american/anglo-saxon culture and lifestyle are interlaced to such a huge degree...
 
BTW Huntington actually does consider Jewish as its own ideology (or "civilization" in Huntingtonian terms). It's just not in the map.

And concerning the worries that Israel might end up on its own...there should be a lot of "past events have brought us closer together" diplo points for Israel with most Western civs.
 
especially with Germany (or even EU lol), germany is probably Israels closest non US Ally. Israel should have generally mediocre relations with most other countries (cept for India, USA & EU) and poor with Arab and Nrth African world.
 
I'd say that (and as a Non-Jew), that the Jewish ideology is probably stronger than anyone's. It is the REASON there is an Israel and those people continue to live there and carve out a life for themselves in the midst of people surrounding them who hate them.

I'm really don't know and can't speak as if I know...but it would seem to me that the Jewish foundation in Israel plays as one of the biggest roles in modern world dynamics.

I think it's potentially dodgy grounds to say that any particular ideology is stronger than another. The same argument could be made for the Kurdish Muslims etc or Catholic vs Protestants in Ireland. However, I agree that if the Jewish ideology is only to be represented in Israel then it would be better to either split the 'Western' ideology or represent Japan more accurately.

Can I ask, though, if we represent the Jewisn ideology, can this also be represented in other cities throughout the world as is the reality- so that there is a Muslim ideology in Leeds for example (very high Muslim population in Northern England) and I would guess a high Jewish population in London and many U.S cities etc. Does it work like this (I'm thinking along corporation, religion lines)? If it does, then no doubt Jewish ideology is very important, but I would say not for Israel alone.
 
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