Discussion in 'Civ4 - World 2009 Mod' started by NikNaks, May 22, 2008.
Yep, that's the way it is to work.
The only thing I worry is how to do that objectively? Would 2 or 20% of Muslim (or Jewish or any other) population be considered as significant to be represented? And is population the only factor that is going to affect the decision?
May be it would be better if we can define clearer of what we meant by 'Ideology' in here so that the decision can be more objective. (If it is already defined somewhere, could it be highlighted to us again?)
being a Jew living in London, I can say that there is a significant feeling of general support in the worldwide jewish Diaspora towards Israel and that many millions of £/$/Euros etc are raised every year for Israeli charities by these communities.
I would imagine its the same with the muslim world raising funds for Saudi\Palestine\Iraq and Hindu's sending money back to there familes in India?
You're bringing up the subject that I think can be the most disputed concerning these ideologies, Genghis. This is really tough. I have thought about this myself but hoped that no-one would bring up the question of objectivity. This is what I think:
These ideologies are subjective to the core. As I said they represent a kind of xenophobia (or homophilia concerning own ideology). If you ask a Westerner someone why he'd trust a Hindu less than a Westerner then he certainly won't come up with an objective answer. It's mainly prejudices. But the fact that the differences between cultural ideologies are to a great part made of prejudices and subjectivity doesn't mean that they are inexistent. They affect international relationships, no matter which of them are real and verifiable and which of them are prejudice. And that's why we'll have them in the game. But that's also what makes it difficult to agree on a completely objective way of placing them. However, here is my suggestion.
1st step (Objective part)
Research every city's ethnic groups. Each population group that has at least 5% is represented by its ideology.
Reason: Cultural prejudices are directed towards ethnic groups, no matter what values one individual of that ethnic group might have.
2nd step (Subjective part)
Wherever there is a part of native population in a city that in our view really shares actual values of a non-native ideology then this non-native ideology should be present in that city.
Example: The population in the southern part of Tehran is mainly westerly orientated, liberal and secular. They certainly don't share the values of our Muslim ideology but nevertheless are Iranian natives.
Reason: Members of an ethnic group can share values that are not traditionally linked to their own ethnic group. They sympathize with the (real or imaginated) values linked to a different ethnic group. Thus they sympathize with that other ethnic group. If their ideology spreads, they can turn over the state idology to that non-native one and thus improve relations with civs of that new ideology.
Certainly agree, this can be highly controversial.
I agree with your 2 steps approach. So basically, ideology is going to be based on ethic groups with a threshold percentage, but with some certain cases given exception on. This to what I would consider objective enough. I do similar things for the standard religions in my scenarios too.
It entails with a follow-up questions:
1) What percentage would be good for the ethic population threshold? 5% is quite low I think. Think about the Eastern ideology. The combined population of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese and etc would probably make every American, Canadian and Australian cities with Eastern ideology
OK now I realized that I didn't write what I wanted to write. (It's always the same...I'm struggling to find the right English words and doing that I forget what I wanted to write)
Why I considered this subject to be so controversial:
My concern is that since a lot of the effect our ideologies have in reality are due to prejudice and subjectivity I strongly advise not to define these ideologies objectively in terms of values. If we try to exactly determine of which cultural, social, political and economic values one of our ideology consists then we won't reproduce anything but stereotypes and prejudices ourselves. Making subjectivity objective is a senseless task.
That's why we should leave it at using ethnic groups for ideology placement at the objective level. On the subjective level, however (like I said in 2nd step above), we can discuss about single cities. But we must not neglect that we're discussing on a subjective level. On this level (natives with non-native ideologies) no objectivity and no definition carved in stone is possible.
Maybe, but the Muslim population of Berlin is at 6% and that of London at 8-9% and I think they should be present.
Although we should make sure that no non-native ideology is present in every city of a civ.
There's just a few additional things that need to be brought up. It might seem to make things more complicated, but in truth, it might make our efforts more flexible, due to reducing the need to split any one hair.
Israel is officially a secular republic, but it certainly fits to give it (and it alone) a Jewish state ideology. However, just as Judaism should have a presence, though not a dominance, in many other areas, so should it not be alone in Israel. The city of Jerusalem is similarly-revered by all monotheists, which easily brings in both Judaism and Islam. Christianity does not exactly correspond to modern Eurocentric ideology, but Western can be there simply because one, those countries tend to support Israel, and two, Jews who lived in Europe or America would have brought some aquired customs with them to Israel.
The sticky issue of an ideology's presence in any given city not clarifying how much of the population professes to it, is partially mendable by giving leaders favorite "religions" in their coding, and making it weighted so that they don't switch.
Finally, if there is any ideology that seems insignificant enough to remove, but has too much effect on relations to do so, remember that attitudes of leaders can be adjusted in the Worldbuilder, and hence, the real-world can be in some part replicated simply by doing that.
I have read your posts over a few times, and I can't figure out why you think your previous post was misinterpreted.
Anyway, I am with you about how it can be controversial and difficult to be truly objective. So no, I am not after a set of formulas to calculate the ownership of an ideologies; that would be a PhD research topic I was just after a set of rules of thumbs and I am satisfied with your 2 steps approach. Without that information, it would be too difficult to understand what you had in mind when classifying ideologies. Now, I can ask question like whether 5% ethnic group is a good threshold. Previously I can't.
No, you didn't misinterpret it. I hadn't read your post #65 when I wrote #66. I just wanted to add those lines that were meant to be in post #64 but which I forgot when I was searching for the right words.
point of order?
Just because there is a strong minority of a religion of non domestic origin doesnt mean they are all automatically supportive of the home country. For example a number of jews in the UK community were disturbed by israels actions in Gaza earlier this year.
Would the current bar thingie on the bottom left of a city info screen do?
No, it doesn't mean they support the home country unconditionally. But you'll agree that Jews around the world by trend do support the state of Israel. Of course they don't approve of every action of Israel.
What bar do you mean? The culture output?
Oh I would agree undoubtbly with you about that but as times go by those links can become just cultural.
The bar which shows a city is say 10%egyptian, 20%greek, 70% british or the like.
Tonight I'm gonna start with research for ideology distribution. However, we haven't yet agreed on an ethnic population threshold. So I'm gonna use the 5% threshold. But in the excel file I'll highlight those that only have between 5% and 10% of a cities population in color so we can delete them if it looks unrealistic.
ianinsane, if you don't mind a bit more work, it would be best to identify and list them on the excel file with the raw % first, instead of applying the threshold as yet. You would probably get a better picture of what % would be ideal once you listed all of them out.
good idea! i'll do that.
I'm still working on that list. It is progressing very slowly because it can be really tricky to research the ethnic population of single cities. 220 of 563 cities are done. That covers Europe, Central Asia and Africa. If I can keep up the current speed I'll be finished in 4-5 days unless someone would like to help. That would be great. No special skills needed, it's just researching on Wikipedia.
wow ianinsane amazing work in such a short amount of time. Nice job!
I see one flaw just by looking in South America(where I live). not very accurate for countries like Argentina, Chile and Brazil(I am Brazilian living in Europe atm). You should be seriously careful when comparing us with today's Venezuela or Bolivia, for example. Theirs is a pseudo-democracy that is really just a dictatorship dressed up as socialism to their own people.
Now, if I understand correctly, each of the countries with the same ideologies will also have the same civics? Or is it same favorite civics? Well, anyway, if you take South America, how can you put countries like today's Brazil and Argentina with countries like today's Venezuela and Bolivia? Completely unrealistic and would break the immersion for any South American playing it. Our government systems are very different and you really should be careful with what you do there.
Just the fact that Brazil speaks Portuguese and the rest speaks Spanish should give you a clue that internally we can be very different. Also, the fact that Spanish South American countries got their independence by war(mostly with Bolivar's influence, which I guess the stupid term Bolivarianism came from) while Brazil claimed its independence in an almost bloodless manner should also make you see that. In fact, the Prince of Portugal(Dom Pedro I) claimed our independence himself, he really liked our country it seems. Of course, this is just an example, but I bet things are a lot like that in other parts of the world too. Generalization is bad, so careful.
Or maybe I understood something wrong? Well, just giving input! Just hoping everything will be perfect for this mod!
Things can always be "fixed" in newer versions though.
Edit: Ah, and good luck, that is some insane amount of work!
Brazil and Argentina are their own civs, not part of our Bolivarian civ.
A side note, how is Venezuela a dictatorship when they keep having legitimate elections?? That sounds like something they would say on Fox news. My country (Canada) seems a lot less democratic than Venezuela. Our Prime Minister shut down our Parliament for the stated reason that he was going to loose a confidence vote. Chavez lost his second last referendum by 1% and accepted the result....??
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