If hypothetically, North Korea Collapses... What do we do with it?

[Takhisis]

Why don't we let the Koreans decide what to do with their country? It'd be the most logical course of action. Down with Juche!

Still, I don't think the Chinese would like a capitalist country just across the border. What if, some 50 years from now, a unified Korean state was a powerhouse of Asian capitalism and democracy? China wouldn't like noisy neighbours setting up such an example of liberal degeneracy, human rights, demilitarisation, slef-determination... they'd prefer a buffer state between themselves and capitalism. The present status quo suits them perfectly.

Funny, people here jokingly scream "VIVA CHAVEZ" whenever we have a blackout.

Well, it's a milder version of North Korea. Thank God Chavenezuela can't be hid, thre's the Internet, telephones, etc. In the '50s, after the war, there was nothing.

 

[Masada]

Install a Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Still, I don't think the Chinese would like a capitalist country just across the border.

Why? They're capitalists themselves.

China wouldn't like noisy neighbours setting up such an example of liberal degeneracy, human rights, demilitarisation, slef-determination... they'd prefer a buffer state between themselves and capitalism.

Your confusing Liberal Democracy with Capitalism. And Korea isn't all that well known at harping on about others faults. It has its own.

The present status quo suits them perfectly.

The potential for having a huge crisis on their border that might spread doesn't.

 

[Takhisis]

Install a Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

One man, one vote?

Why? They're capitalists themselves.

It's crony, state-planned capitalism.

Your confusing Liberal Democracy with Capitalism. And Korea isn't all that well known at harping on about others faults. It has its own.

Korea wouldn't have to harp on, remember that, deep down, China is a military dictatorship under the guise of Communism or whatever other -ism they might find useful.

The potential for having a huge crisis on their border that might spread doesn't.

Well, not completely perfectly, but does China have any liberal country on its borders except for india which doesn't border any heavily populated zone, just Tibet?

 

[Karalysia]

One man, one vote?

One Party rules in behalf of the proletariat.

 

[Takhisis]

One Party rules in behalf of the proletariat.

That poses an interesting reasoning.

• society is divided into capitalists and proletarians
• the party rules in behalf of the proletariat

Therefore, ia communist state is ruled by the capitalists.

 

[Karalysia]

That poses an interesting reasoning.

• society is divided into capitalists and proletarians
• the party rules in behalf of the proletariat

Therefore, ia communist state is ruled by the capitalists.

The Party is made up of reveloutionaries drawn from the proleteriat, who according to Lenin must in its nascent stage act as a Reveloutionary Vanguard to safeguard the Reveloution from reactionary forces. They rule on behalf of the proleteriat and while they do not vote or poll directly they draw their support from the proletriat and rule at the behest of the proletriat and seek to usure in socialism by destroying the capitalist class and the reactionary forces, and once the reveloution has been safeguarded then a socialist democracy can be implemented. The problem in the USSR is that due to the constant capitalist imperialist threaths by the US and assorted capitalist powers, the Reveloution was never truly secure thus the USSR had to divert a large amount of resources into the military rather than implementing socialism. Thus it found itself caught in a totalitarian situation due to the failure to fully implement a socialist system and socialist democracy.

But despite this even a socialist dictatorship of the people is freer than any bourgeois capitalist democracy since the economic factors of production in the USSR were democratically organized and distributed.

 

[Takhisis]

'drawn from' the proletariat; 'on behalf of' the proletariat; 'draw their support from' the proletariat; 'at the behest of' the proletariat... but they're never proletarians. they control the means of production, so they are capitalists.
Ever heard that in a democracy (socialist or otherwise), the true revolutionaries are the reformers?

P.S.: Your bad writing gives you away . No true communist would misspell 'Revolution'.

 

[Karalysia]

'drawn from' the proletariat; 'on behalf of' the proletariat; 'draw their support from' the proletariat; 'at the behest of' the proletariat... but they're never proletarians. they control the means of production, so they are capitalists.
Ever heard that in a democracy (socialist or otherwise), the true revolutionaries are the reformers?

P.S.: Your bad writing gives you away . No true communist would misspell 'Revolution'.

They don't control the means of production. The people do. The means of production are run democratically by the workers. I have a structure graph lying around somewhere. Unions played an important role.

And don't mock my dyslexia.

 

[Takhisis]

Oh please, we both know that you're anything but dyslectic. You've been doing a great impersonation of Quackers and everything. I want that avatar!!!

 

[kivanc]

in soviet system, the unique political party tries to direct the political path the state is taking.

the ruling was held by the 'soviet' organizations. each city had a soviet; it is a local mechanism/organization which every worker and farmer could be a member. and a chairman for each soviet is elected. soviets combine on top like a triangle.

that is the USSR model. many states had different models.

anyway, sure, this thread was created for a hatred against red flag. this is clear because the OP already started to make fun of CHAVEZ. chavez may or may not be a perfect leader, not every man has to be, but sure what he is doing is at least a better form than most capitalist systems.

 

[Tee Kay]

North Korea should be annexed by the Sarkastic Empire. I nominate Cheezy the Wiz as Governor/Dear Leader.

Seriously? It'd be best if the North remains an independent country for a while. Several years later after the North has reformed politically and economically a bit there should be a referendum on reunification.

 

[Masada]

One man, one vote?

Within the ranks of the people, democracy is correlative with centralism and freedom with discipline. They are the two opposites of a single entity, contradictory as well as united, and we should not one-sidedly emphasize one to the denial of the other. Within the ranks of the people, we cannot do without freedom, nor can we do without discipline; we cannot do without democracy, nor can we do without centralism. This unity of democracy and centralism, of freedom and discipline, constitutes our democratic centralism. Under this system, the people enjoy extensive democracy and freedom, but at the same time they have to keep within the bounds of socialist discipline.

'drawn from' the proletariat; 'on behalf of' the proletariat; 'draw their support from' the proletariat; 'at the behest of' the proletariat... but they're never proletarians. they control the means of production, so they are capitalists.

First, it should be pointed out that the danger of ultrademocracy lies in the fact that it damages or even completely wrecks the Party organization and weakens or even completely undermines the Party's fighting capacity, rendering the Party incapable of fulfilling its fighting tasks and thereby causing the defeat of the revolution. Next, it should be pointed out that the source of ultra-democracy consists in the petty bourgeoisie's individualistic aversion to discipline. When this characteristic is brought into the Party, it develops into ultra-democratic ideas politically and organizationally. These ideas are utterly incompatible with the fighting tasks of the proletariat.

It's crony, state-planned capitalism.

It's still capitalism.

Korea wouldn't have to harp on, remember that, deep down, China is a military dictatorship under the guise of Communism or whatever other -ism they might find useful.

The Red Army lost out its chance to seize power during the reform period. The current administration while solicitous of the Red Army is dominated by technocrats with little to no formal military experience. Just because the state it buttressed by the military doesn't mean that its a military dictatorship. And I don't see why Korea being a semi-functioning Liberal Democracy matters, it already effectively borders China and China hasn't evidenced any desires to invade it or anything. I don't see why gaining a border with a unified Korea would make much, if any, difference.

Well, not completely perfectly, but does China have any liberal country on its borders except for india which doesn't border any heavily populated zone, just Tibet?

Its not like having Japan or South Korea bordering China already has posed a massive existential threat to Chinese youth is it? And I don't see how this mysterious threat would eventuate if North Korea were to agree to reunification with the South. The world just doesn't work like that.

 

[kivanc]

democracy has a meaning but capitalist system misuses the word consciously. some more comments:

Spoiler :

democracy means freedom and here comes the question "freedom for who?"
dictatoria means pressure and here coems the question "pressure on who?"

so whatever the form of a country is, there are in fact 2 real forms of system

proletariat democracy = proletariat dictatoria = socialist system
bourgeoisie democracy = bourgeoisie dictatoria = capitalist system

it is all a struggle between classes.

 

[Winner]

Pyongyang is the showcase city of North Korea. It's purpose is to look pretty and amazing like the Beijing Olympics for the foreigners to be awed in. As a result, it is the best city in North Korea to live in, it gets the best food from the famine-struck country, best "job" opportunities, best housing. Little Kim stocks the city with his most loyal supporters so that
1) They stay loyal
2) It fits into the whole "North Korea is so awesome" look when thousands of citizens turn up for government events in front of foreign delegates.
In reality, living in North Korea is like living in Hong Kong 1970s. Cept with a whole lot more power shortages.

Look at this video clip of "A Day in North Korea". You see how the teacher is WILLINGING (albeit brainwashed) engaging in brainwashing a whole new generation of North Koreans (who are dressed quite well) in Kimmy's awesome returned boots.

This isn't an isolated case. You go find clips about British filmmakers that go to North Korea, you see that they all really really think America is the anti-christ (When a blackout occurred an old man shouted "Damn Americans") and they love Kim to the death. Out of actual (brainwashed) love.

As always, I remain sceptical. Here's what I see as major problems standing in the way of me having the same opinion:

1) Agree that Pyongyang is a showcase city in DPRK and that it could be considered a loyalist stronghold. That by no means mean it is perfect. The living standard is still very poor, the secret police surveillance and terror is omnipresent and there are shortages of pretty much everything (so that there are signs of burgeoning black market, hardly a sign of loyalty and trust in the regime).
This makes me wonder if the citizens would really fight for the regime, or they'd just weather the storm, trying to stay alive and letting the regime fall. I do not have to remind you that throughout history, many places which were considered strongholds eventually fell very quickly.

2) I absolutely don't believe in the videos showing fanatically loyal DPRK citizens. Pretty much everything the regime allows to be filmed by foreign journalists has to be approved by the regime-appointed guides. The regime always tries to arrange things along the way to the best of its ability to convey a message of harmonious Orwellian society.

(should I dig up some 25 years old news bulletins from the former Czechoslovakia? Our public service TV broadcasts them before the main 7 PM news bulletin for contrast (and amusement) and it is a great stuff. If I were not Czech, I could well become inclined to believe that life in Communist Czechoslovakia was pretty good, that people were happy with the government and that there were no problems with the dissent.)

Taking Pyongyang will not be easy. East Berlin led the charge to drop communism like a dead duck. Pyongyang will definitely require a whole lot more effort to convince these people. Also take note that half of all North Koreans are/were in the army.

If their experience with serving in the DPRK army is similar to the experience my father and uncles had with serving in the Czechoslovak People's Army, it definitely DOES NOT bolster their trust in the regime My father has told me me that the 2 years in CSLA made him hate the regime more than anything else in his life - there he realized that the regime was run by stupid morons who didn't give a damn about anything but themselves and their absurd rules, that they were insulated in a capsule of ideological insanity, totally out of touch with the reality of people's lives.

And yes, he got all the usual commie stuff: political officers, ideological 'training', evening courses of Marxism-Leninism, etc.

Assuming that North Korea (save Pyongyang) revolts, you will essentially have a civil war between Pyongyang and the rest of North Korea.

I don't think there will be any kind of revolt like this (center vs. periphery). It's more likely the regime will become split internally and then it collapses under its own weight. Soldiers will simply throw off their weapons and go home and among the regime officials it will be every man for himself situation.

Once it's clear that the regime has collapsed and anarchy-like situation exists in most of DPRK with local warlords struggling to establish their little kingdoms, the South Korean or Chinese military will simply march in to establish some sort of order (and secure the nuclear facilities and rocket launch sites).

If there's any fighting, it will be against individual warlords refusing to cede power.

 

[Cheetah]

(should I dig up some 25 years old news bulletins from the former Czechoslovakia? Our public service TV broadcasts them before the main 7 PM news bulletin for contrast (and amusement) and it is a great stuff. If I were not Czech, I could well become inclined to believe that life in Communist Czechoslovakia was pretty good, that people were happy with the government and that there were no problems with the dissent.)

Please please please please do!

That would be great to watch (though hopefully with some subtitles if that exists?).

 

[TheLastOne36]

If their experience with serving in the DPRK army is similar to the experience my father and uncles had with serving in the Czechoslovak People's Army, it definitely DOES NOT bolster their trust in the regime My father has told me me that the 2 years in CSLA made him hate the regime more than anything else in his life - there he realized that the regime was run by stupid morons who didn't give a damn about anything but themselves and their absurd rules, that they were insulated in a capsule of ideological insanity, totally out of touch with the reality of people's lives

You had that mandatory military service in Czechoslovakia too?

My dad escaped Poland for Italy like two weeks before he was gonna get drafted.

 

[Winner]

Please please please please do!

That would be great to watch (though hopefully with some subtitles if that exists?).

I am sorry to disappoint, but there are no English subtitles (I'll send an e-mail to Czech TV and explain them that it would be a good idea ).

But since I am bored right now, I'll give you a short summary of yesterday's bulletin which you can watch if you click HERE.

1.4.1985

General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev met the President of the Ministerial Council of the Hungarian Socialist Republic György Lázár (yes, they would always arduously pronounce whole official titles of functionaries and full official names of countries for some reason ) in Moscow. Comrade Lázár also officially inaugurated the exhibition named "Hungary on the way of Socialism, 1945-1985" dedicated to the 40th anniversary of Hungary's liberation by the Red Army. Blah blah blah.

Further increase in fees for drug prescriptions came into effect in Great Britain today. Blah blah blah. Margaret Thatcher's government has increased the fee 20-times since taking power in 1979 (see how the bloody conservatives oppress the people? Aren't you happy with our free healthcare, citizens?)

More than 100,000 protesters have flooded the streets of the Danish capital. They came to voice their protest against Prime Minister Schliter (I am probably spelling this wrong) to terminate the strike of public sector workers which was rapidly gaining momentum over the past few days. Protesters denounced it as abuse of the Danish law (...) made possible only after intense lobbying by the right-wing cabinet in the Parliament. The lawmakers eventually accepted the wishes of the private capital and thus confirmed that the thin veil of bourgeois parliamentary democracy only conceals the nakedness of class solidarity which bounds the political power to the entrepreneur circles in society of so-called 'unlimited freedom' ( ). Blah blah blah. The main demands of the strikers were higher pay and better working conditions.

Lady in terrible pink blouse starts speaking.

Lot of crap: students have arrived in the Soviet Union to learn new ways of managing the fuel-energy complex (whatever that means), Comrade President Gustáv Husák has published his collection of essays and speeches (it greatly documents the progress of our society and the Party since 1981...), spring sowing has begun (but the plan can't be fulfilled 100% due to the rain...), etc. More crap, skip to 6:26.

The first two days in April always bring great changes in the lives of young men who wear the uniform. Today and in following days, their 2-year military service begins.

The Main Railway Station, Prague. A special train with new soldiers is about to depart.

A young man with a young woman:
- "Others have gone through it, so I think I'll manage through it too. I hope Renata will wait for me." - "I think I certainly will." ( )

Older woman is interviewed:
- "I'd rather go there instead of my son."
= "What is it going to be like there for him, what do you think?"
- "It's going to be hard, I think. He's not very orderly, so he's gonna learn that there - he needs it!"

Another young couple:
- "I'll miss him very much. I'll visit him with little Roman very soon."

Surely there will be others who will visit 'their' soldier. The military oath-taking ceremony will be a good opportunity for such a visit. But we went with them today to show you their first day in the barracks.

Blah blah blah.

They know why they're here and why they have to spend the next 2 years in this regiment.

8:13

The 5th annual display of (stuff they produce and do - I don't know how to translate it) is held by the students of 'high industrial schools' (again, no idea how to translate this - simply practical secondary schools) named "Worker's Youth '85" began in Gottwaldov today (the city is now called Zlín; it the communist era it was named Gottwaldov after the first communist party leader, a Stalin-like figure). Blah blah blah (the programme is explained).

The last part is about keeping Prague clean. It's a duty of every citizen to contribute to the effort

The end.​

(I was a few months old at the time this was recorded.)

 

[Cheetah]

[Lot's of blah blah blah]

Sounds great! Thanks a lot.

Reminds me a bit of the Norwegian Film Revue, news bulletins that was played before every movie until 1963. It existed before the war, but was perfected by the Nazis, and then later used to bring information to people throughout Norway.

Famous scenes from the Film Revue include the commentator's over-exited cheers over seeing the Norwegian flag being hoisted on May 8th 1945, his equally hateful remarks towards the traitors as they are filmed being led from the police cars to the court and referred to as 'rats', and not least the surprised outburst when he notices a negro in a crowd during May 17th (our Independence Day)

(I was few months old at the time this was recorded.)

You must feel so proud.

 

[GoodGame]

And, if it was your choice, how would you do things?

Regime change and an official signing of the end of the war. I don't think South Korea wants anything other than peace and entente at this point. Technically it's the same starting scenario as post-WW2 Germany, but I don't believe there's any love between the two peoples at this point, just a desire to normalize relations in the South, and probably one day, a desire for a rational economy in the North.

 

[Winner]

Sounds great! Thanks a lot.

Reminds me a bit of the Norwegian Film Revue, news bulletins that was played before every movie until 1963. It existed before the war, but was perfected by the Nazis, and then later used to bring information to people throughout Norway.


You must feel so proud.

More than anything I am happy that I only had to spend 5 years in that madhouse When I started going to school it was already over, thank the Gods

Anyway, when I am watching these old news bulletins (and newsreels, we had them too and they're much, much better, especially those from the Stalinist-era) it confirms the faint memories I have from that period - that everything was grey and dull and dirty. I sometimes wonder how would people from that time react if I showed them 10-minute clip from today's news bulletins - how profoundly the country has changed.