If the South had won the war?

Originally posted by Cuivienen
More importantly, not only was the South becoming more and more dependent on slave labor -- the percentage of the population as slaves was also rising. Even had the CSA remained independent, eventually the CSA would reach a sort of "critical mass" and collapse under the weight of numerous slave revolts.

Before that would happen, slavery would cease to be economically viable. Part of the reason Southerners were so eagar for westward expansion (especially into Texas) was because the quality of land was decreasing greatly after two centuries of plantationeering. Even the most ardent pro-slavery men admitted that, due to the resulting production decreases, slavery would cease being profitable around the 1890's...indeed, that was one of their major pro-slavery arguments; don't bother abolishing it, it will die a natural death in time.
 
Couldn't the Confederates have made slaves labor for manufacturing instead of just agricultural work?
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
Couldn't the Confederates have made slaves labor for manufacturing instead of just agricultural work?

Industralization of the South would require massive cultural change and, most likely, the death of the old social elites. Industralization was looked down upon as oppressive Yankee nonsense. It perhaps would be possible, but I wouldn't see it being easy at all.
 
This is an interesting thread (I actually like what-if's. Maybe that's why I like Civ so much... but I'm not a history buff). I suppose the first question would be, "How did the South win?". Suppose some battles turned the other way (i.e., the famous pickett fence for one. Suppose the landowner happened to take it down for some reason, and the Confederates had a much easier time). True, you could say that the north was more industrialized, but let's suppose certain circumstances happened. Also, I've read that European nations had very much a lot at stake with the US civil war (ironically, I think, since the next 100 years would prove that). Let's say that England was able to advance slightly more with their Industrialization, and convinced the south that some industrialization was good, if not temporary.


Now, supposing the South had won, what would've happened? I think that first, certain things wouldn't happen, like the Alaskan purchase (no one suspected it had oil then). The fact that Russia owned this piece of land would place a Soviet foothold on NA in 1917. Now, back to 1866. I'm pretty sure several things would've happened. First, the South might've demanded that the north give up their territories to the British, which would've been their allies. This is where I mostly agree with Marla's map. I don't agree that the California lands would've been that great. I also think that America, beaten back badly, would've been forced to give the central land to the Native Americans (Probably mostly Sioux). The rest of the land would be taken by Canada, giving England a major presence in the north. Spain wasn't in a posistion to retake land (they were selling it). Russia wouldn't have had any one to sell land too, since most in Europe would be too far away. California would be seen as a "US Gold Colony", and any trade/commerce from that region would've been expensive. I doubt that England, the Confederates, Indian Nations, and possible Mexico would have let trade travel through their lands. Atleast not with all of that wealth. It would have become a power vacuum. I also think that the capital would have been moved from Washington DC (and away from the coast). Maybe somewhere in Ohio, or Chicago.

ct_history_whatif_civilwar.gif


Now, since America is down for the count, there's several very important things that don't happen.

Causes:

1 - US Doesn't purchase Alaska, which most likely stays in Russian hands.
2 - US doesn't arrive in Japan, opening doors to trade.

Effects:

1 - Russia has a foothold in North America come the Soviet Revolution.
2 - Japan doesn't rise to power in WWII.


Shift to 1914. America is still becoming industrialized, but isn't a major power it would have been. The south would still be a primarily agricultural society, slowly giving into industrialization. The south, I think, would be poor, like others said. The north wouldn't have the breadbasket of the south to sustain its' production and workforce. Europe would still be in a world war. To the best of my knowledge, the US was pretty much isolationist until 1917. Germany probably would have still lost the war. WWII still would have happened, probably with more dire consequences for Europe (especially England), since the US wouldn't be able to send as many troops. It's lessened size would mean less numbers. The Soviet Union would still be flourishing, and China would still become communist (according to this site, China was already on the road to becoming Communist). China, or Russia would have invaded Japan, Korea, and the rest of Southeast Asia. Germany probably would have achieved one of its' goals to reproduce or emulate the Roman Empire. Russia probably would have invanded the Middle East too, attempting to both stop Germany from expanding to their south, and getting a southern port, with Iran and Afghanistan being a major source of resistance for the Russians.

ct_whatif_WWII.gif


I'm not sure what if India would've been able to hold out, or if it would've still been a British colony (probably not). Russia and China would have been strong allies, with a blood feud against Germany.

Which brings an interesting question. Would the Atomic Bomb have been developed around then? If so, what next? Also, the Soviet Union would have had a foothold in North America (if they haven't sold it to the British. Would the Russians and Germans have been more willing to engage in nuclear warfare?

In short, I think there would've been major world repricusions, affecting both World Wars.
 
Chieftess: I can perhaps fanthom the idea of Great Britain taking advantage of the situation to break the 1840's agreement and ask for the Oregon back, you're putting Indian territory where I think you should be putting Deseret. Do not underestimate the Mormons at this stage.
 
Chieftess,

Perry's mission to Japan happen before the Civil War. Alaska might have been sold to the British or seized by them during the Russian Civil War.
 
Well, it's been since 6th grade that I learned about Perry. 15 years. :p

But still, I think trade would've been slowed. And yes, I left room for Russia losing Alaska. But, I didn't know Russia had a Civil War. I only know they had a revolution...
 
Well thats what i meant aftet 1917 there were about 4 factions fighting and Alllied troops. A
 
@Chieftess :

I'm sorry Chieftess, but I don't see your maps ! I see only red cross instead of them. :(

Do you think it's because of my browser ? Have you a clue then about what should I do to load your images ?

Thanks.
 
Yes, I also would have assumed that the Canadians would have siezed it during the Russian Revolution.

But you really cannot predict much beyond the actual civil war.
 
I can see the maps... They're gif images, BTW.

And yes, I know you can't predict much, but I was also assuming that the US in real life wasn't much invovled with international affairs (and probably the rest of the west) until 1917. It branches out to many possibilities. Maybe the US and Confederates signed an alliance. Maybe England would have conquered the US.

EDIT:

Marla, here's 2 jpg versions.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ct_whatif_WWII.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ct_history_whatif_civilwar.jpg
 
Very nice post Chieftess :) I like detailed what if's myself. By the way, I live in the only state to secede from another, West Virginia :P
 
Chieftess, do you really think that the Indians could have held on to anything? They were uncivilized and unwise in Western styles of political administration, economic development, and overall well-being of the people in general. Each Indian "nation" was just like a little Soviet Russia, you have to force your way to the top.
 
I thought the south grew cash crops, not food? how did the union army feed itself during the war if they got all their food from the south? doesnt make sense.

i don't see the english defeating the usa. especially if the germans are running over england, i imagine england would want all their troops in england. Also why would the usa send troops to europe(especially england) if they had to cede territory to them, I'd be thinking of taking back the souix region, which is the real breadbasket of this country, the red river valley is very fertile.

indians would have no land, and would probably be worse off, if not extinct.

China would not conquer Japan.
 
I find such "what if"s to be intriging.

In any case, If the South got lucky and forced the Union to stand down then such a situation would only be temperary. The Union would likely lick its wounds and try again within a decade or two. The South at that time was agrarian while the Noorth was fairly industrialized. The North would likely be able to rebuild its military quicker than the South. Also, the Confederate government left most of the political power to the states with only a very weak federal government holding them all together. The US actually tried a confedation based government before the current government based on the constitution (1783-1787). This confederaton of the original 13 states was based on the articles of confederation. This system of government proved to be unworkable thus leading to the sontitutional convention in 1787. Basically, I think it unlikely that the confederacy would have lasted that long when left to itself, especialy once the states lost there common cause.

Simply put, a Union victory was inevitible either in the Civil War or a Union attempt to elinimate the Confederacy later on. Either way the Union would be reunited under the slave-free Union by 1900 at the latest.
 
I think Harry Turtledove got it about as right as anyone could.

As he wrote, Deseret would've become a power in the West, the CSA would've received help from Britain, and the USA probably would've become friendly with Germany. I don't know if there would've been another war between Britan/Canada and the USA, but it would be possible. Perhaps as a result of continuing warfare between the CSA and the USA. Likely both sides would keep at it until the other was conquered.
 
I thought the south grew cash crops, not food? how did the union army feed itself during the war if they got all their food from the south? doesnt make sense.

Quite the opposite. The north was turning out massive amounts of food during the Civil war. In fact, the North was having some excellent growing years while there were droughts in Europe, resulting in the Union exporting quite a bit of food to England and other parts of Europe- yet another reason that they hesitated to come in and side with the south.
 
To expand on jimmydean's comment above, Harry Turtledove has written several books of alternate history where the Confederacy won the "War of Secession." I recommend his "American Empire" series: Blood and Iron, The Center Cannot Hold and The Victorious Opposition, which has the U.S. and Germany beating the C.S.A, Britain and France; the Socialist Upton Sinclair defeating Theodore Roosevelt in the 1924 U.S. Presidential election, and a neo-Nazi party gaining control of the Confederate States and throwing all the blacks into concentration camps.
 
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