If there are only 11 civs left: a case for post-R&F DLC

[The Kingmaker]

It would be much better to just have them both. Both are influential and important and the game would be worse off without either one.

The fans have spoken; we want a post-XP double civ pack with Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire!

 

[Greywulf]

It would be much better to just have them both. Both are influential and important and the game would be worse off without either one.

The fans have spoken; we want a post-XP double civ pack with Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire!

Technically we would have both if Rome's secondary leader represented Byzantium...it was "East Rome" after all. Byzantium has been in the last couple of games with the Ottomans however, so there is a good chance we will see them both as separate civs. There are limited available spots left for new civs too, and adding both as separate civs will mean another civ will not get in the game.

 

[The Kingmaker]

It would be weird for Byzantium to just have Rome's uniques though. We'd miss out on their own unique flavor.

More than anything we need those 11 civs. Got to keep our eye on the ball.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

If I had to choose between the Ottoman Empire or the Byzantines, I'd choose the Ottomans. I do like the idea of having the Byzantines represented by a secondary leader for Rome, much like Sparta and Athens, two completely different Greek cultures, are represented by separate leaders. It would help to make the secondary leader more distinctly unique from the first leader too, which makes it more interesting to play as.

It would be weird for Byzantium to just have Rome's uniques though. We'd miss out on their own unique flavor.

More than anything we need those 11 civs. Got to keep our eye on the ball.

The thing about Byzantines is that it ended up evolving to be different from Rome. Culturally they are more Greek and evolved into being more religious through the spread of Eastern Orthodoxy.
All Roads lead to Rome, Legions, and the Bath doesn't feel distinctly Byzantine though in my opinion.
Here is an idea that makes the Byzantine Empire different with not necessarily a leader in mind:
Capital: Constantinople, UA: Byzantine Law- Can change government cards through purchasing with faith. Religious Buildings can each hold one religious great work. UU: Dromon (Quadrireme replacement) attacks adjacent enemy units, UD: Sacrum Palatium (Government District replacement) Every government building provides a free inspiration.

 

[Greywulf]

It would be weird for Byzantium to just have Rome's uniques though. We'd miss out on their own unique flavor.

More than anything we need those 11 civs. Got to keep our eye on the ball.

True, but at least they would get representation. I would be better to have their special UU though, I will say.

11 would only take us to 45. Do you think it's likely we will get 45 civs?

The thing about Byzantines is that it ended up evolving to be different from Rome. Culturally they are more Greek and evolved into being more religious through the spread of Eastern Orthodoxy.
All Roads lead to Rome, Legions, and the Bath doesn't feel distinctly Byzantine though in my opinion.
Here is an idea that makes the Byzantine Empire different with not necessarily a leader in mind:
Capital: Constantinople, UA: Byzantine Law- Can change government cards through purchasing with faith. Religious Buildings can each hold one religious great work. UU: Dromon (Quadrireme replacement) attacks adjacent enemy units, UD: Sacrum Palatium (Government District replacement) Every government building provides a free inspiration.

I thought that the Byzantine capital was called Byzantium? That city has changed its name a few times over the years before it settled on Istanbul. I think it would be an interesting city to visit actually, as a tourist.

 

[The Kingmaker]

We had better get at least 45. Civ5 gave us 43, and Civ6's first XP is coming out much earlier in the life of the game than Civ5's did.

I think we could realistically push for the full 50.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

True, but at least they would get representation. I would be better to have their special UU though, I will say.

11 would only take us to 45. Do you think it's likely we will get 45 civs?



I thought that the Byzantine capital was called Byzantium? That city has changed its name a few times over the years before it settled on Istanbul. I think it would be an interesting city to visit actually, as a tourist.

If we go by the leak and the mysterious leader: we'll at least need only 9 more staple Civs after the xpac, since the Zulu along with Celt/Scotland will be incoming.
That will take us to 43 and I don't see why they wouldn't go for 50 at this point:
44. Italy
45. Mali
46. Austria
47. Assyria
48. Gran Colombia
49. Polynesia/Maori
50. Benin or Navajo
These would be my preferences.
P.S. Byzantium was the name of the city during the first Roman Empire. Later at 330 A.D. Constantine moved the capital from Rome to Byzantium and renamed it Constantinople after himself.
Then western Rome fell and the Eastern part survived.
Edit: forgot another NA tribe. Not sure if I would want Navajo or Benin more.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I don't see any reason to lump the Celts in with Scotland, any more than I would lump Italy in with Rome.

Medieval Scotland is fine, but it should not preclude the addition of Gaul.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't see any reason to lump the Celts in with Scotland, any more than I would lump Italy in with Rome.

Medieval Scotland is fine, but it should not preclude the addition of Gaul.

Scotland today is derived from the different groups of Celtic people though, mainly the original inhabitant, the Picts, and the Gaels that came from Ireland. If is indeed Scotland, and not called the Celts,then I think that might be the representation of them this time around, maybe rotating the different Celtic nations in the future since they seem to be doing it now with the Vikings nations and NA tribes to an extent. I could be wrong too.

 

[The Kingmaker]

While it is true that the people of Scotland may be said to descend on part from ancient Celtic peoples, I should like to point out that the Germans, Norwegians, English, and Dutch may all be said to derive from ancient Germanic tribes, yet all four of them are included in the game (with the prospect of Sweden and Austria returning as well).

We've got multiple Germanic civs, multiple Romance civs, multiple Slavic civs. Heck, we've got three Greeces alone.

I see no reason to limit the game to just one civ of Celtic extraction, especially when it does not truly represent the significant accomplishments of the ancient Celtic civilizations.

I say bring on the Gauls!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

While it is true that the people of Scotland may be said to descend on part from ancient Celtic peoples, I should like to point out that the Germans, Norwegians, English, and Dutch may all be said to derive from ancient Germanic tribes, yet all four of them are included in the game (with the prospect of Sweden and Austria returning as well).

We've got multiple Germanic civs, multiple Romance civs, multiple Slavic civs. Heck, we've got three Greeces alone.

I see no reason to limit the game to just one civ of Celtic extraction, especially when it does not truly represent the significant accomplishments of the ancient Celtic civilizations.

I say bring on the Gauls!

This is all true, however I don't know if they would want to represent different set of Celtic groups when we have a limited number of spaces left. But let's see what this mysterious Scottish castle will represent first before we come to any other conclusions.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Yeah, it's inconclusive at this point, but I really hope the limited number of remaining spaces is expanded by more DLC or an XP3.

 

[Uberfrog]

While it is true that the people of Scotland may be said to descend on part from ancient Celtic peoples, I should like to point out that the Germans, Norwegians, English, and Dutch may all be said to derive from ancient Germanic tribes, yet all four of them are included in the game (with the prospect of Sweden and Austria returning as well).

We've got multiple Germanic civs, multiple Romance civs, multiple Slavic civs. Heck, we've got three Greeces alone.

I see no reason to limit the game to just one civ of Celtic extraction, especially when it does not truly represent the significant accomplishments of the ancient Celtic civilizations.

I say bring on the Gauls!

The Gauls and the Britons/Picts/Gaels were considered distinct at the time of Caesar, so I’d say there’s plenty of differentiation between the medieval to early modern independent kingdom of Scotland and the classical Gallic tribes to make two civs.

As others have said, “Celtic” is merely a linguistic grouping, hardly the basis for a single civ.

 

[The Kingmaker]

The Gauls and the Britons/Picts/Gaels were considered distinct at the time of Caesar, so I’d say there’s plenty of differentiation between the medieval to early modern independent kingdom of Scotland and the classical Gallic tribes to make two civs.

As others have said, “Celtic” is merely a linguistic grouping, hardly the basis for a single civ.

Agreed. Now let's see Vercingetorix!

 

[Greywulf]

We had better get at least 45. Civ5 gave us 43, and Civ6's first XP is coming out much earlier in the life of the game than Civ5's did.

I think we could realistically push for the full 50.

It is possible that we might just get 45 though, which would still be more than previous games.

If we go by the leak and the mysterious leader: we'll at least need only 9 more staple Civs after the xpac, since the Zulu along with Celt/Scotland will be incoming.
That will take us to 43 and I don't see why they wouldn't go for 50 at this point:
44. Italy
45. Mali
46. Austria
47. Assyria
48. Gran Colombia
49. Polynesia/Maori
50. Benin or Navajo
These would be my preferences.
P.S. Byzantium was the name of the city during the first Roman Empire. Later at 330 A.D. Constantine moved the capital from Rome to Byzantium and renamed it Constantinople after himself.
Then western Rome fell and the Eastern part survived.
Edit: forgot another NA tribe. Not sure if I would want Navajo or Benin more.

Actually wouldn't this xpac mean that we now have 34 civs? That would mean to get to 45 civs we would be getting 11 more civs ~ which would work for a 2nd xpac plus a couple more DLC.

 

[Thormodr]

True, but at least they would get representation. I would be better to have their special UU though, I will say.

11 would only take us to 45. Do you think it's likely we will get 45 civs?



I thought that the Byzantine capital was called Byzantium? That city has changed its name a few times over the years before it settled on Istanbul. I think it would be an interesting city to visit actually, as a tourist.

The original city was called Byzantium. It was founded by Greek colonists from Megara around 657 BC.The name was changed to Constantinople in the 4th century AD.

Although becoming an ally of the Roman Empire and in many ways becoming very Romanized, Byzantium remained fairly independent, acting as a stopping off point for Roman armies on their way to Asia Minor. The fishing, agriculture, and tributes from ships passing through the Strait made it a valuable source of income for Rome. In 192 AD after Emperor Commodus was assassinated, a war emerged over who would succeed him. When the city refused to support Septimus Severus, supporting Pescennius Niger of Syria instead, the future emperor laid siege and destroyed the city. He would later regret his actions --- due to the influence of his son Caracalla ---and rebuild it,

When Emperor Diocletian divided the Roman Empire into his tetrachy (rule by four), Byzantium fell into the eastern half, ruled by Diocletian. The Emperor Constantine came into power in the western half in 312 AD and would soon reunite the empire when he defeated Licinius at the Battle of Chrysopolis in 324 AD. He would build his new capital on the site of ancient Byzantium, New Rome; it would become the cultural and economic center of the east. Upon Constantine’s death in 337 CE, the city would be renamed Constantinople in his honor. Although the city maintained it role as an important part of the Byzantine Empire, it would be invaded and captured by the Ottoman Turks In 1453. For further information refer to the definition on Constantinople.

Here is a good short history of Byzantium:

https://www.ancient.eu/Byzantium/

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Actually wouldn't this xpac mean that we now have 34 civs? That would mean to get to 45 civs we would be getting 11 more civs ~ which would work for a 2nd xpac plus a couple more DLC.

Yes, but I was adding in the Zulu and Scotland/Celts with the xpac, considering they are going to be added. Then to add in the other staple civs, which would be 9 we're missing, would take us to 43. Of course then we're still missing West Africa, Italy/City State, other NA tribe, other Europeans, Polynesia etc.

 

[Greywulf]

The original city was called Byzantium. It was founded by Greek colonists from Megara around 657 BC.The name was changed to Constantinople in the 4th century AD.

Although becoming an ally of the Roman Empire and in many ways becoming very Romanized, Byzantium remained fairly independent, acting as a stopping off point for Roman armies on their way to Asia Minor. The fishing, agriculture, and tributes from ships passing through the Strait made it a valuable source of income for Rome. In 192 AD after Emperor Commodus was assassinated, a war emerged over who would succeed him. When the city refused to support Septimus Severus, supporting Pescennius Niger of Syria instead, the future emperor laid siege and destroyed the city. He would later regret his actions --- due to the influence of his son Caracalla ---and rebuild it,

When Emperor Diocletian divided the Roman Empire into his tetrachy (rule by four), Byzantium fell into the eastern half, ruled by Diocletian. The Emperor Constantine came into power in the western half in 312 AD and would soon reunite the empire when he defeated Licinius at the Battle of Chrysopolis in 324 AD. He would build his new capital on the site of ancient Byzantium, New Rome; it would become the cultural and economic center of the east. Upon Constantine’s death in 337 CE, the city would be renamed Constantinople in his honor. Although the city maintained it role as an important part of the Byzantine Empire, it would be invaded and captured by the Ottoman Turks In 1453. For further information refer to the definition on Constantinople.

Here is a good short history of Byzantium:

https://www.ancient.eu/Byzantium/

Unquestionably the Byzantines are their own civ, and deserving of a place in the game. The real problem is that there are only limited places available (perhaps just 45, although that will be more than ever before), which means that for every civ that is added, other civs will not be. The Byzantines shared the same territory and many cities, including the capital (though renamed), as the Ottoman Empire. As mentioned before, culturally it was similar to the Greeks, which we already have in the game with two leaders, and as a civilization is strongly linked to Rome, even being called "Eastern Rome" (just google "Eastern Rome" and you will get a list of sites about the Byzantines). Thus indirectly it is already being represented in the game. This is why I'm thinking that I would want to see another civ instead added in place of Byzantium. I just have too many civs in mind that I want to see, and I know that they will not all make it. I have to cut back on my wishlist, and so I've been knocking of some really cool and deserving civs in order to have a shorter list.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Well, that's the point of this thread: to lobby for as many civs as we can get. The more vocal we are, the more justification they'll have for considering the request.

 

[Thormodr]

Unquestionably the Byzantines are their own civ, and deserving of a place in the game. The real problem is that there are only limited places available (perhaps just 45, although that will be more than ever before), which means that for every civ that is added, other civs will not be. The Byzantines shared the same territory and many cities, including the capital (though renamed), as the Ottoman Empire. As mentioned before, culturally it was similar to the Greeks, which we already have in the game with two leaders, and as a civilization is strongly linked to Rome, even being called "Eastern Rome" (just google "Eastern Rome" and you will get a list of sites about the Byzantines). Thus indirectly it is already being represented in the game. This is why I'm thinking that I would want to see another civ instead added in place of Byzantium. I just have too many civs in mind that I want to see, and I know that they will not all make it. I have to cut back on my wishlist, and so I've been knocking of some really cool and deserving civs in order to have a shorter list.

Limited spaces or not, the Byzantine Empire was historically extremely important and fully deserves to be included.

I'd say that the Byzantine Empire was fully distinct by Justinian's time in the mid 6th century at the latest and it lasted for well over 900 years after that. Any notable empire that lasted that long should be in Civ.

Make it 50 Civs in the game and there won't be any problem.