[BTS] I'm looking to improve

[as2w]

@Pangaea, thanks for the helpful info. I do want to play this out a little but not a space race.

I think I'll make the following adjustments. I'll stop building the courthouses and move a couple of cities to produce gold. I'll be ready to go with HBR and build a couple of stables in best production cities. Then I'll knock out some HAs and go get Zara and Saladin.

You are correct that I cut deals with Elizabeth and Zara. So you have explained clearly what happens to my trade and relations if I do that. What happens when another civ demands that I stop my deals with them? What does this do with my relations with them? I wasn't clear on how it impacted me and so I agreed to do it.

 

[Pangaea]

It's basically a lose/lose situation, but one you can take on the chin. Either you cut off ties and the party won't talk to you for a long time, sometimes a veeeeeeeeeeery long time. Or you refuse and get -1 with the leader who demanded it. I almost always do this, as it's preferable to losing all trade opportunities and commerce from trade routes (and resource trades).

 

[Anysense]

The best you can do about it is not to open borders if somebody is likely to demand stop trading. For instance, in a current Noble Club game everybody hates Hatty, so its unwise to open borders with her. The trouble is that its not always obvious, and sometimes a sudden change of religion by AI can mess things up for you.

 

[Pangaea]

That's true, though we don't always/often get a situation with one clearly isolated AI that everybody (or close enough) hate. A more common situation may be that the hate is spread around, so most AIs are hated by one or more of the others. But you can't exactly not open borders with anybody (well, it CAN be done, but is it wise?).

Type of neighbour depends too. Some of the nutters... you don't want to anger them. Not the most fun experience to get DOWed in 2000BC by Shaka, and he comes at your warrior-defended cities with axes and swords

It's a boring answer, but once again "it depends" and when playing many games you get a better 'feel' for what is the correct decision.

That said, from my perspective, unless there is an AI clearly hated by most, I tend to open borders with everybody and deal with 'cut off trade ties' as they come. The upsides are pretty big with trading relations, while a -1 here and there can be negligible. Just look at how backwards Tokugawa usually is due to his extreme stance.

 

[lymond]

Depends or situational, as mentioned, is unfortunately the right answer. I mentioned "getting a feel for the nuances of the game" often. Diplomacy is probably the biggest feature that this applies to. You really have to look at the situation. Who like who, who doesn't. And really what the leader is like. As Pangaea mentioned, leaders like Shaka or Monty..the psychos as we call them..are the ones that you either try to butter up nicely or try to isolate diplomatically. Shaka/Monty will have good relations with the other nutters - as Pangaea calls them...ha - and absolutely hate the peaceniks (think Gandhi). So the question..depending on the situation..is who is the better group to buddy up with. The answer is not always the same indeed.

Someone like Zara is what I call a "neutral" AI. They tend to get along with the human fine, and overall maintain decent relations with everyone. I generally will not close relations with a Zara or Justinian unless the situation absolutely call for it.

Plus, in your case, Zara is right next door. He is generally not a threat. Unless you are actually targeting him, you want those trade routes. Saladin is more questionable. Not psycho leader, but can be aggressive, and is definitely a zealot, so the religion issue can come up if you happen to adopt something different than him. Very likely he will spread his religion to you, if not already.

Elizabeth on the other hand is often not well liked by a lot of AIs. As mentioned, OB with a leader requires the question of whether doing so will likely result in a request to close borders later. So look at the diplo screen to see who likes or does not like that AI. Especially note who they are the Worst Enemy of.

I think Sal is a good early target here. He is a potential threat. Has a holy city. And could be a problem diplomatically.

As a note, my general priority is opening borders with everyone and maintaining good relations and trade. The exceptions and things I check close is whether a particular leader would cause diplomatic issues. So I might hold off opening borders with Leader X for the time being to avoid requests/demands to stop trading, which has a negative impact one way or the other no matter what you decide, but no benefit one way or the other.

And foreign trade routes are very important, so you always want some trading partners. And early on, that is likely your neighbors.

Yeah, and courthouses are not a priority. Only really unless you get rather large and need some in far away cities if you are just bleeding gold. They are expensive early buildings.

 

[Fippy]

Yup, it's a general rule for me that i never stop trading with anybody on demand.
"You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy" can fade away again, and it's only -1 diplo.
No war checks, even if they can sound threatening they will do nothing if you refuse

It's different when they demand techs, gold or resis.
They can ask nicely, in which case it's also just -1 diplo if you refuse (could you possibly spare this for us?)
Or demanding, with phrases like our units await your answer..you can easily spot those if it's not 100% obvious by looking at your possible reply, if it's "we reject your empty threats!" and you refuse now, they usually start plotting on you and might declare war at any point (even if not being ready with a stack).

Religion influences my decisions on who i want open borders with early, let's say Isabella already sent her Buddhism to 2 other AIs and then we also have Monty who founded Hindu but is not spreading it around, then i would like open borders with Isa cos joining the Budd block looks like many friends later.
And no open borders with Monty, AIs often stop sending their missios to cities already having a Reli, so we want no Hindu that might block our Budd spreads.

 

[as2w]

@lymond @Fippy Thanks for the helpful info. Next time I run into the request to drop deals, then I will refuse in order to keep borders open.

 

[as2w]

I decided to go back to an earlier save to rerun part of the game. My primary purpose was to keep relations open with Zara and see how it played out differenty.

So here I am at 25 AD. Sulia DoWed me a couple turns back. I don't know much about the espionage functions and I didn't realize he was plotting against me. In any case, I was able to kill his little city in the south. I'm building HAs right now trying to amass enough to go after him. I likely need some Cats as well as his cities are +40% and +50% iirc. Is it better to get Medina since it's the closest and then head towards Mecca? I do know that it will be beneficial to kill that mine next to Baghdad and eliminate his source of iron.

I know nothing of making someone a vassal. I know the real answer will be "it depends." When do you choose to make a vassal and when do you choose to wipe somebody out? And would it be wise to move my espionage points all to Sulia?

I am unclear on best tech pathing at this point in the game. In some of the other threads, I saw that the advice was to research something that the AIs don't have so that I can trade for the techs that I do want. What do you recommend at this stage of the game?

Spoiler Turn 116 :

 

[Pangaea]

I like to wipe out the first war victim, and given the locations and such, that's probably the best move here too. Besides, you need Feudalism to be able to vassal somebody (I see you are researching it).

Looks like all his cities are on flatland, so a pack of HAs should be able to deal with that, at least if he doesn't have a pack of spears. One big advantage with HAs is that they move twice as fast, so usually it doesn't make sense to combine HAs and catapults, so I'd forget about catas for now. You can use them in later wars.

 

[Anysense]

I'd add that its too late to build barracks when you are already at war and monastery is completely off the point, build more units instead. Agree that you can take most of his cities with just horse archers, still bringing a few catapults to Mecca would be a reasonable precaution. It definitely has 60% culture, may be too tough without siege.
As to research, you've got a bunch of techs that AI's don't have already; research something for yourself, like Feudalism for vassaling your enemies and Guilds for better units.

 

[Anysense]

BTW, rice is by far better tile than desert iron, which means that Vladivostok would be much better placed 1W of its current position. Building lighthouse and granary costs 120; incense generates 6, as much as 3 coastal tiles; it will take roughly 30 turns to grow to size 4 after you 2->1 whip lighthouse. At this point, about 50 turns from the moment that city was founded it will start paying back the difference. This is very, very, very long term investment, two horse archers would be a lot more use than the settler that built that city. I think that the best you can do now is just make it work incense and build wealth for the rest of the game.

 

[Anysense]

It seems you might have missed what Pangaea meant saying that horse archers should not be mixed with slow units. Speed is very important in regard to everything. Particularly when it comes to war; that is exactly what makes whip an extremely powerful tool, and that is also why 2 units are so good.
So use your whip! Whip 8->6 a horse archer in Yekaterinburg on the next turn and then finish barracks with the overflow; 3->2 whip a granary in Smolensk with a chop; 7->5 whip a HA in Yaroslavl' and finish axeman with the overflow; Rostov grows next turn to 4, thats great, 4->2 whip another HA or catapult; don't slowbuild HA in Yaroslavl'b, put overflow into it, then 5->3 whip catapult and finish HA with the overflow from that catapult.
In short, build your army quickly because speed is essential. I hope you got the idea.

 

[as2w]

@Anysense Thank you. I do get the idea. I'm hoping to get back to the game tomorrow and I'll put these into action immediately. Hopefully I can run these cities over quickly. IIRC Medina only has 2 units in it. And Baghdad isn't well fortified either. By that point I hope to have the cats needed to soften Mecca's defenses. I do understand the idea of having a fast army and not mixing HAs with cats. I'd build elephants if I had ivory, but Zara has the market on that. I'm doubtful I can get in trade, but I do know that Elepult is a great combination. In the meantime, I'm going to try to keep the war short and too the point.

 

[SittinDown]

hey - just stopping by to say I like your attitude as2w. keep it up and you'll keep getting better and better. ...looking forward to seeing more from this thread.

 

[as2w]

Played another turn set.

@Anysense I tried to follow your advice on the whips, chops and so forth. I think I did it pretty close to what you said to do. I took Medina and just got Baghdad earlier in this turn. I turned my cats northwards to get to Mecca to soften the defenses. Once the HAs in Baghdad are healed, it should all go fairly quickly.

So I have a GS in Moscow and a GG in Novgorod and I am not sure what to do with either one. I attached my first GG to a HA and have it as a super medic and it's currently in Baghdad helping to heal those troops. What do I do with this GG? Save for later or attach to another type of unit? The GS bulb option is for Compass and I don't know if that is wise or not. I already have an academy in Moscow, but it might make sense to put one in St. Petersburg as well. That city produces a lot of gold and that translates to bulbs if I understand it so far.

Nobody is willing to trade anything at the moment. Just scouted out England territory and have a work boat scouting to the SW. Not much else to report. I'm looking forward to the advice.

Spoiler Turn 129 :

 

[Anysense]

@as2w Glad it worked for you, I particularly like your attitude towards scouting
You may a GG to split exp between multiple units, either to give them promotions they lack (like shock for HA and accuracy for cats) or to heal up quickly, units restore half of the damage upon promoting.
May be, start a Golden Age with GS. It will give your economy a good boost for 8 turns and you could switch civics without anarchy, vassalage would be useful for extra exp.
As its Noble you can conquer at least half of the map with just horse archers and catapults. Zara can research Feudalism and, probably, will have it soon. To break longbows, especially on hills, you'll need something more powerful, like maces or knights. Personally, I'm leaning towards knights - they are faster.

 

[Anysense]

Don't finish Salading off, just take his capital. Capitulation saves a lot of time and each vassal provides +1 in every city, you'll need it to compensate for whipping anger.

 

[Lennier]

The other thing to to with a GG is settle it. If you have your Heroic Epic city decided, you can settle the GG there. Gives and extra 2 xp on every unit the HE city will produce, and the HE city will be producing a lot of units.

 

[Pangaea]

I'd definitely finish him off. Hate to have to deal with the cultural pressure and "we want to join our former empire" anger. It can be a huge pain in especially big cities. That's a big reason why I prefer to wipe out the first 1-2 targets.

Probably won't matter much here as you can kill the entire map with HAs, at least if you started earlier, but still... that +1 comes with a heavy burden.

 

[Anysense]

@Pangaea I suppose its very situational. I think that here +1 in all of your cities (and there are rather a lot of them) outwheighs some anger in 3 or 4 conquered cities.