Immortal Challenge: War is Peace

[Revent]

T24-T29

Turn log events

Spoiler :

T24: Warrior is back in position to steal SB's workers if possible. 5 fog busting spots identified. East is covered, west is bare.
T25: Worker starts chopping grassland forest to go into settler.
T26: Warrior out, settler starts.
T29: Agriculture is in, warrior in position to steal another worker from SB. I have 6-11 turns before the barbs start becoming a problem.

Re: producing the settler +future plans.

Spoiler :

I chopped (20h) + slow building settler. Will 1 pop whip this settler into either another settler or worker->switch to warrior->then chop out the settler/worker. City is at happy cap at size 4, can't spare the warrior to keep in the capital YET. I need one more warrior for fogbusting right now.


Based on the map, it looks like Monty has almost NO space for settling cities (coast next to SB's capital) so expecting border tensions and early war. Not too sure about Shaka, but it looks like he has enough space at the moment.

I'm thinking TW->AH->Writing tech path right now. I'm leaning towards a HA rush with 4 cities right now (Maybe 3 if horses are locally found?) to take out Monty. That should also hopefully build up my power rating also to deter Shaka and co from declaring on me too. Very small turnset, but I think this is one of the crucial parts of the game that decides everything.

 

[sampsa]

@Revent

Spoiler :

Very well played so far. Due to Gandhi's starting techs, fishing start and going BW, we are lacking both food techs (agri+AH) and the ability to connect cities, making 2nd city choice rather awkward. I placed it 1E of gems to work rice, and now I'm pretty sure it was just a big mistake. I think 2nd city should grab gold to 1st ring and there are 5 different ways to place it, all having pros and cons. Check the coast in SW so that you don't kill fish, if you decide to go for gold.

Don't know about HA-rushing with Agg AI, as HA-rushing shines against wusses who don't build units (like Darius in that Pericles game). It might be doable of course, especially if he suicides a lot of troops vs SB. Elepult is a safe choice against unit spammers, and you can already see ivory. If you go for HAs, Monty is indeed the correct target.

I'm afraid you will experience some barb issues. I don't think busting on non-forested tiles is going to work. But ok, if they come from only one direction you can handle it somehow.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ City 2 :

Spoiler :

I placed it between the gold and bananas (for snacks !) but maybe I got hypnotized by the plains hills.
Your location, Revent, grabs 2 more resources (provided enough culture) and costs one less settler to do so... That can be (very) good.

I doubt more about your dotmap in the east, north-east. Maybe you want to adjut that one. There's still time


ps : if you 1pop whip in Delhi, you'll have the overflow to produce a warrior, garrison Delhi and be happy at size 4 for another settler/worker

pps : agreed that defenders are best placed on (hill) forests.

ppps : finally, it's questionable whether improving the rice is the right call.
It may be if it speeds up a regrowth by a turn.
Otherwise, while building settlers/workers, a 4F tile is just 1H better than a bare forest. For the purpose of having a 4 yield tile alone, mining a hill is actually faster (fast workers).
It may be that chopping another forest was just the better move.

 

[Revent]

Thank you guys for the input! I have been incorporating a lot of it into my game! I lost the next turn log due to computer switching off on me but general gist is below. Also, sorry I should have been clear, the white dotmaps were just visualizations for me to help spawnbust.

T23-T50

Turn log events

Spoiler :

Turn log specific events lost, but I stole one more worker from SB, settled 1E of gold got elephants on top! Tech path was TW->AH->Writing. Discovered horses so I decided that city was a priority here. Also managed to lose ONLY one barb so far (!!) 3 or so of my warriors got WII so have been defending well against the archers that do come. I did have a few micro slips where I forgot to work the gold in city 2, but that's been the most of it.

To the future:

Spoiler :

Interesting here, Monty has ONLY archers. I need to explore his land to see if any copper nearby. If so, I may be able to actually kill him sooner rather than later now that I have horses. Stonehenge was lost on 2080BC so I'm guessing I have plenty of time for wonders too.

Writing comes online in 3 turns. After that, I have a few options:
Sailing->Masonry-> Build GLH
Med->PH->Masonry->Bulb Maths-> Oracle Construction
Or just tech straight to Currency.

I'm leaning towards Oracle Construction, but it is a risk and I'd be spending 10-12 turns researching items I don't need. Plus, it would be delaying Currency (and sailing for GLH).

 

[sampsa]

@Revent

Spoiler :

Good job. Congrats on getting 2nd worker from SB, I was able to get only one.

Random remarks/thoughts:

• On wonders: why GLH? You have only one coastal city and won't get many more. You have stone, Mids is very good especially for philo leaders (more gain from specialists). Oracle - maybe, but Isabella often goes for it early. I think it's risky to try to get it now.
• Construction feels like a good tech to target - I'd go without the math bulb and make an academy in capital (turn tech to 0% when building library and/or when waiting for academy). With this path, cottage capital. With an academy, failgold gains more power, as you want to run 100% slider as much as possible.
• On builds: why barracks in gold? It won't produce many troops for you as it can't grow. Build either warriors or settlers/workers. Why monument in wheat/horse? There are no good tiles on 2nd ring. I can see a worker roading to the city, but is the wheat still unimproved? +2 is much better than +1.
• Area right west of wheat/horse is not fogbusted
• Consider teching alpha, to backfill some techs and gifting techs to get some of them pleased. Isabella would be easiest, if you can get buddhism.

 

[Revent]

@Revent

Spoiler :

Good job. Congrats on getting 2nd worker from SB, I was able to get only one.

Random remarks/thoughts:

• On wonders: why GLH? You have only one coastal city and won't get many more. You have stone, Mids is very good especially for philo leaders (more gain from specialists). Oracle - maybe, but Isabella often goes for it early. I think it's risky to try to get it now.
• Construction feels like a good tech to target - I'd go without the math bulb and make an academy in capital (turn tech to 0% when building library and/or when waiting for academy). With this path, cottage capital. With an academy, failgold gains more power, as you want to run 100% slider as much as possible.
• On builds: why barracks in gold? It won't produce many troops for you as it can't grow. Build either warriors or settlers/workers. Why monument in wheat/horse? There are no good tiles on 2nd ring. I can see a worker roading to the city, but is the wheat still unimproved? +2 is much better than +1.
• Area right west of wheat/horse is not fogbusted
• Consider teching alpha, to backfill some techs and gifting techs to get some of them pleased. Isabella would be easiest, if you can get buddhism.

Spoiler :

-That island below is unsettled, putting a few cities into it could help. I naturally always think of GLH when I get a coastal start. It's the closest thing to getting ICS from earlier Civs. You are right about Mids actually, especially as a PHI leader; I tend to always write them off as too expensive!
-I guess Academy will be a good option rather than bulbing Maths, this isn't Deity after all and Gold helps my tech rate go up reducing the value of bulbing a low beaker tech.
-Builds: I'm not really sure, I didn't really have anything to build so thought might as well and was unsure if the extra maintenance cost was worth it; if I had currency, I'd be building wealth instead for sure. Plus, unsure of further city cites for now.
-Fogbusting, warrior is en route and worker is actually currently improving the wheat tile which is almost done.
-Alpha- It's a possibility; but a lot of these AI are unwilling to trade until at least 4 AI on the map know the tech (and Toku not willing to trade at all) which is why I considered skipping for now.

About to start next turnset now. Lets see what the future holds. May start choking Monty instead of SB as I want to take him out and try to prevent him getting Copper/Horses. Thank you for the insight by the way! It really helps planning the game out that much easier!

 

[shpeka]

Just a quick reminder if you don't go the GLH route: identify your cottage city (including the adjacent helper cities for cottage growth).

 

[FlyingSwan]

I can see why your building a barracks in the banana/gold city-you want to grow to size 2-and then switch to building a settler/worker.Best put a cottage on top of the banana as you will be working it unimproved for a long while till calander.Well done if your spawn bustings worked-I just built TGW-which works better than you would think with raging barbs as it pushes all of them to your neighbours which slows them down.

Mids is a good build,you want to overflow whipped settlers into it and chop it out with maths to keep hammer cost down.

Remember your settings-aggresive AI! I would look to settle on a hill where ever possible.Taking gueirilla I rather than city defender I seems to work better for archers on hill citys(although I have no idea what comparative odds are).

Good luck-your going to need it...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Spoiler :

Interesting here, Monty has ONLY archers. I need to explore his land to see if any copper nearby. If so, I may be able to actually kill him sooner rather than later now that I have horses.

@Revent :

Spoiler :

That doesn't go too well with wonder building (especially the more expensive wonders like the GLH).
It may go hand in hand with research + expansion, however. If you want to target Monty (West), you should expand towards the other side of the map (East, and maybe South as well).

You should choose your war tech, imo, and go from there.
HAs, Swords & Elephants are all possible choices that require different techs & allow different things.

 

[Revent]

T51-T60


Turnlog Events

Spoiler :

T51: Barb is on my borders. Send a warrior on the hill to defend against him.
T52: Worker out in Delhi. Prechops a forest en route to rice. Warrior on way to choke Monty.
T53: Writing is in. Switch from Settler to Library. Going to whip into Settler.
T54: Open borders with Isabella, Ragnar and Shaka. Find worker with Monty, steal that.
T55-57: Kill 2 of Monty's scouts. Also, see a mini barb stack en route to my horses city so worker starts chopping some chariots. (4 barb, 1 archer).
T58: Worker 1 turn from my border (one I stole from Monty)
T59: Pottery is in, need to start laying down cottages somewhere. Barbs in territory, declared on SB as I saw his archer settler about to settle.
T60: Whipped Library. Made peace with Monty.

Right now and for the future: +Wonder discussion

Spoiler :

Just beat a stack of 6 barbs! Going to have to take down that barb city sooner rather than later. Researched pottery as cottages are badly needed right now to keep me going. My science rate is at an all time low right now. One more expansion is not going to be affordable yet, but I do want to settle that riverside city that will get cow on border pop and can borrow Horse city's wheat.

Re: Wonders, I decided Oracle wasn't worth the detour and every other wonder, I can reap the benefits of without having to invest the hammers into it but for now, I need to deal with the aggressive AI. Shaka is likely to declare war on me soon now that we will have touching borders too so need to get my power rating up.

Choking is working well. Shaka and Ragnar now have four cities. Monty has three and SB only has two! I MAY try for one more worker steal, but I feel it is going to get riskier now because I had to kill two of Monty's scouts to get peace.

Is it worth investing the beakers into Alpha (for backfills)->Maths->Construction or is it better to go straight Maths->Masonry->Construction? I'm leaning towards Alpha because then I may not have to research Masonry myself and may be able to get lots of techs to catch up.

 

[FlyingSwan]

I think I settled the gold city same as BIC,your 1 north placement is better,still probably worth building a cottage ontop of the bananas though.As far as alphas concerned-your better off self teching maths/construction as the AI are unlikley to trade it to you in time.but your Q is whether to tech it 1st.I would say yes definately-obviously you can back fill for Med/Poly,IW etc,but also bieng able to gift techs/give into demands may prevent an unwanted DOW.As for masonry-very few AIs will trade it early-WvO and pericles for example will,other AIs wont,ever.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Revent :

Spoiler :

I don't think it's cities that eat your bpt.
You should check your F2 screen for further info How much gold are you paying on units upkeep ?

I think settling at least 2 more cities asap is of the highest importance at the moment, or you'll start lagging behind (6 cities by 1000 BC is a common thing).
You've got at least 4 workers, right ? Those are fine. Settlers are what you need, now.


--> With stolen workers, it's questionable whether going Worker --> Library in Delhi was the right choice
--> Pottery being a pre-requisite to Writing (20% discount), it's questionable whether going Writing --> Pottery was the right choice (about 40 beakers lost)


If you're not going to self-research Alpha and know what tech you want, then you should probably invest your beakers into the other tech.
Beakers into Alpha may delay the tech you'll actually research.

 

[Revent]

@ Revent :

Spoiler :

I don't think it's cities that eat your bpt.
You should check your F2 screen for further info How much gold are you paying on units upkeep ?

I think settling at least 2 more cities asap is of the highest importance at the moment, or you'll start lagging behind (6 cities by 1000 BC is a common thing).
You've got at least 4 workers, right ? Those are fine. Settlers are what you need, now.


--> With stolen workers, it's questionable whether going Worker --> Library in Delhi was the right choice
--> Pottery being a pre-requisite to Writing (20% discount), it's questionable whether going Writing --> Pottery was the right choice (about 40 beakers lost)


If you're not going to self-research Alpha and know what tech you want, then you should probably invest your beakers into the other tech.
Beakers into Alpha may delay the tech you'll actually research.

D'oh! You're right (obviously!). Unit maintenance was what was slowing me down and was bigger than city maintenance 4 gold compared to 8 gold. However, I think that was a bit of a necessary evil as I needed units outside my borders to fogbust. A bit silly. I should have checked It's WHY I was holding on expanding for a little bit because I thought the maintenance cost was killing!

Ouch! I completely forgot about the 20% discount that you get, otherwise Pottery first would have been a no brainer.

T51-T75
Turn log KEY events

Spoiler :

-Stole one more worker from SB
-Chopped out two settlers and settled them.
-Building Chariots in Vijaynagra to take the Barb city and claim it as my own.
-Got a Woods 3 warrior now as well which could work out to be a great super healer.
-Popped a gold in a mine in the capital!!! This may save the game from total ruin.
-Only Ragnar has 6 cities right now. Shaka has 5 as do I. SB has 2, but everyone else has four.

Spoiler :

Maths->Masonry->Construction and use Elepults to kill Monty and SB. Also steal the barb city for myself. May wait around to see other units attempt to take it, and take it at the last moment possible.

I feel like I've messed up badly and game is lost because of my tech rate. Is it possible to still recover?

 

[FlyingSwan]

@revent

Spoiler :

Im sure you can recover,the barb citys gold may save your skin.I would of gone alpha 1st though,the gems are already in your culture borders but youve no way to trade for IW.Also dont forget that you can "build" research with alpha if you had to.

Your going the same way I did-attack monty>sitting bull.In my game monty was already fighting SB so I managed to take 3 of his citys without much bother,and then I turned on SB after making peace.

Youve done well to keep the barbs at bay without the GW.IIRC I didnt get an army of elepults together until the early ADs,so you have plenty of time yet,well as long as you get to SB before longbows.In fact,on paper you should be in good shape because of the workers you stole and the better placement of the banana/gold city.Hang in there,maybe going math 1st will get you to war faster.

Im not a great player,but ive finished this map,one of the most fun/addictive games ive played,so I hope you stick with it and dont end up as shaka fodder-like I did on a couple of trys.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Growing cities

Spoiler :

would reduce your maintenance and allow you to tech up.
You've been considerably delayed, now, however, compared with a "normal" game.

Maybe it's the Raging Barbs that pushed you to produce too many units,,
Maybe it's the "whip settlers" tactics that prevented you from growing Delhi and actually work tiles/hire specialists,
Maybe some cities weren't too well placed (Pataliputra claims 0 new tile before a border pop, better go for the rice/gold city to the east, there)
--> It seems to me only Varanasi claimed a new, useful tile.
--> Bombay popped borders, too, and that is good.
--> Pataliputra, however... Vijay could just be size 2 and work both the Wheat and the Horses.

The result is that you have 5 cities but... only 10 population points. This is where it hurts with regards to research potential. If you want to research, you need the population points.
So, somewhere, somehow, you missed a step that lost you some research. Prolly. Are you paying ever more money on units ? Now you have Chariots running around...
I liked a lot your situation at 2000 BC (except for the Worker in Delhi), much better than mine.

Now, is it a big deal ? Probably not.

The game is far from being lost. You're surely in a decent position, with your 5 cities and (almost enough) accumulated gold to reach your next tech.
But it will be harder to war against little opposition, with a tech lead, etc. Warring at tech parity is fine, provided you have the production.
Maybe self-researching Mathematics isn't safe anymore, at 1000 BC ? AIs tend to get that one a lot. If you can't trade Maths vs Alpha, then it will be a loss. Alpha trade is the stake, now.
I'm not sure what your (military) tech target is. Maybe you can get there by trade ?

Overall, I think you should focus on what you've missed : growth !
Grow first, then things become possible. If you can slip in an extra settler, that's fine, too. And get an Academy. And work commerce tiles. And get to your happy caps asap (need farms).

You know : unit upkeep depends on your overall population. With more pop, you get more free units. Another reason why you might want to grow past size 1

@ FlyingSwan :
Sounds good enough and a nice game

@ 1000 BC :

Spoiler :

Gandhi, also known as Lord Sitar, has yet to become the PurpletMaster :

Spoiler :

See ? You're not in such a bad position ^^ You even have more pop points than I have...
It hasn't been an optimal development, that is all.

 

[sampsa]

@Revent

Spoiler :

BiC already covered most things. You've just built too many troops, those chariots aren't going to be useful for a long while. You won't be taking hill barb cities with those. Very well done on worker stealing department though.

You should connect ivory asap for +1 as happiness is holding back your capital. I wouldn't stop working those 4 tiles btw for any reason, just growing into temporary unhappiness is imo better than halting growth. Aim to work 2x clam, rice, gold, 2x sci asap, forget about those cottages until academy. Can't you put hammers into wonders? Failgold would be better than useless barracks (it will be eventually useful obv, but gives you no immediate benefit).

I think Bombay was also mismanaged, I really dislike that banana cottage. Work the gold, that is what this city was meant to do. I guess now that it takes only 3 turns to be size 3, go ahead and grow. At size 3 I'd work rice, gold and borrow a riverside cottage from capital. Cottages are meant to grow, that banana cottage will be razed at calendar anyway, making growing it useless.

@BiC

Spoiler :

Interesting to see if founding religion pays off in the long run. Btw why so small capital? You didn't whip it, right?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Sampsa :

Spoiler :

Religion paying off is doubtful... You have too high expectations.
However, it may or may not make for an interesting diplo.

Delhi is so small because it has produced 3 settlers with 2pop whips and without a granary... It built the Stonehenge, too, and put 100 base hammers into the Pyramids...

Can't say I played this very well, nor that it is a very good position.
Early Monotheism + Sailing is very demanding anyway.

 

[sampsa]

@BiC

Spoiler :

Religion paying off is doubtful... You have too high expectations.

Where did you get the idea I have high expectations?

Delhi is so small because it has produced 3 settlers with 2pop whips and without a granary... It built the Stonehenge, too, and put 100 base hammers into the Pyramids...

Can't say I played this very well, nor that it is a very good position.
Early Monotheism + Sailing is very demanding anyway.

Org rel surely compensates some things... I'd worry about Shaka, he is so hard to please even with religion.

My 1000BC:

Spoiler :

It felt like I was doing okay, until suddenly both Shaka and Monty settle two cities on my face. -2 from Shaka and -3 from Monty thanks to close borders. My biggest mistake was the placing of 2nd city... And I paid dearly, even losing that gold tile later. Economy is in good shape and I'll get failgold from GW (have 32+36 invested). Mids half-way done. Settler done next turn to settle my 5th city to claim oasis+phant. Weak city, but need the phant... No real barb issues, GW is utter trash, even fortified warriors do fine.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@sampsa,about the banana cottage,if you settled on the plains hill as me and BIC,you have to work the banana to get to size 2 and work the gold mine,you still have to work it to eventually get to size 3,although I used the city for a 17turn settler initially.When the city grows obviously you can then work the capitols cottages,but in the meantime why wouldnt you add extra commerce to a tile you have to work anyway,who cares if you pull it down with calender,in fact I would say the banana cottage won me the game

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Made a quick rerun to 1000 BC :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Went : Agri --> The Wheel --> Fishing --> Masonry --> Monotheism --> Sailing (--> Pottery --> BW --> AH)
Instead of : Fishing --> Masonry --> BW --> Monotheism --> Agri --> The Wheel (Holy City needs trade routes, duh !) --> Sailing --> (AH --> Pottery)

While it is much more streamlined with a less messy development...
While the galley is out and expansion not really behind,

There are only 2 workers out vs 4 in the other save,
And the Shrine isn't done, due to a much later Stonehenge (1800 BC vs 2560 BC ... no comment).
Thus the religious spread hasn't been nearly as effective (Ragnar escaped the Jewish influence, Sitting Bull and Tokugawa aren't connected to trade network).

Could use some refining, still. I guess I can't get Workboats before Stonehenge if I go Agriculture first.
And maybe Fishing first is the best choice after all. Needs some consideration.