Immortal Challenge: War is Peace

[Revent]

Okay, I did not know a lot of these things! I think I was being a bit daft about the lack of emphasis on the city size Those chariots were actually to help me capture the barb city which worked out pretty nicely I have a worker roading to Isabella as I'm not connected to her TR yet.

500BC T95

Spoiler :

Shaka is getting out of control. The island below he seems to have free reign to right now since only him and I have direct access to it and it is a BIG island. He may need to be dealt with sooner rather than later. Speaking of Shaka, I planned to originally play to T100 and upload progress but a few turns after this, Shaka declares war on me So I went back a few turns and am thinking what to do. I could research archery whip/chop a few archers out and that should help or well anything really.

This has been a fun game for me! You're right FlyingSwan, it has been tough, but otherwise, an exciting game to play. Most interesting is that none of the AI have alphabet yet and NO ONE has built the Oracle yet.

 

[Revent]

@BiC

Spoiler :

Your second run looks MUCH better than the original! You managed to block Shaka off which is why Pataliputra in my save was sub-optimally settled. You also got the Rice/Gold city! That's a great grab

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Apart from that one city hitch, your save is looking great! Shaka has been a trouble for both you and me it seems. His settling is a bit all over the place. He may actually end up being my first target so that I can put him on a leash.

 

[sampsa]

@FlyingSwan

Spoiler :

@sampsa,about the banana cottage,if you settled on the plains hill as me and BIC,you have to work the banana to get to size 2 and work the gold mine,you still have to work it to eventually get to size 3

You don't have to grow to size 2, that's what I'm saying. You can grow it later, after border pop and improving rice. The start is starving for early , need those worker techs quickly, that's why I want to get max out of this city asap (well this depends a bit on tech path too, maybe it's not so pressing if you didn't go for BW as a 2nd tech).

@BiC on re-run

Spoiler :

I like it quite a lot, especially those border cities on hills with lots of culture. Dang, maybe stonehenge does have some other use than failgold?

On early tech path, I now like delaying BW and I think I went fishing-agri-AH on my 2nd run.

@Revent

Spoiler :

Chariots capturing hill barb city... How?? In that screenshot you are not working the clam in capital, otherwise looks good. Maybe you could have tried to claim that gold+rice under Shaka's nose, but I understand there are some risks. I don't think roading to Isabella is necessary, since you are connected to everyone else all it takes is a few roads from Bella to Shaka/Ragnar.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Stonehenge + PHI trait + early stone :

Spoiler :

Is a good combo to pull off SH gambits. Gandhi is actually a very good character for this.
But it doesn't mean other gambits wouldn't be more effective ! (Oracle/Pyramids or just a Swordsmen bust to make use of all those forests)

--> Early SH = early Prophet (25 turns between SH and GP). If that first point doesn't matter... then it's probably a poor choice.

--> Can settle for an early shrine. In this case, Sailing is also desirable to open trade route connections with the world.
--> Can bulb into Monarchy or Theology, allowing an Oracle longshot towards Feudalism or Paper (Kossin posted an all warmongers map with Sitting Bull a few years back that allowed exactly that ... t67 Paper or so).

Now... come 1400 BC, you can trade maps with Napoleon, how cool is that ?

Outside of PHI trait gambits... hmm...
On a cramped Pangaea, if you want to culture flip some neighbours, the culture may come in handy but is better in a secondary city than in the capital.
A holy city may be just as efficient and a lot easier to set up. Say... Oracle CoL.

Probably there are some other uses for the Stonehenge that I can't think of right now.
Say you're open to an AP victory, Stonehenge probably is a good step 1.

 

[sampsa]

on Stonehenge

Spoiler :

Sometimes I'm a bit tempted when playing a charismatic leader and having stone. Still, delays those 3rd and 4th cities. Maybe it's possible to get it on lower levels after expanding to 4-5 cities, which would make it decent, for cha leaders.

500BC

Spoiler :

This is my first game, although I also started another one because I was so dissatisfied with many early decisions (city placing, tech path).

SB had an unescorted settler running in the north coast, so I nabbed it and whipped a settler of my own to claim desert gold, for happiness (as I lost the other gold to Monty ) and for hill "fort" against SB. I also thought about settling that rice+gold next to Shaka, but he went WHEOOHRN (on me I believe) so I dropped those plans. Monty is WHEOOHRN too, on me too I guess, as the number of jags in adjacent cities is rising .

On good news, construction is in and HBR in 3. I believe I can take a war vs 3 AI since I got cats now and phants soon.

650BC Mids and ~300 failgold in, academy was completed slightly earlier, so now I have huge tech power.

Shaka stacking units in Nongoma... Can't tell yet which city he is heading to. That forest ph 1NE of capital might be a useful defensive point. Haven't seen many SB units, only some spears approaching now, but they have no chance to take my cities. Just hope my phant won't be pillaged.

Unit spammer/ cities:

will whip those weak plains hills away asap, as I have enough to stack a lot of whip anger.

Crap cities:

Science city, not great now but after IW will work the gems and will eventually get gold back (via war if necessary). Library just whipped, enough overflow to finish walls.

My precious. Too bad no hinduism spread yet for +1 . Also can't wait for +3 with lighthouse and irrigated rice.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@sampsa.yeah I see what your saying.I did go a totally mental tech path though-masonry>agri>TW>pot>writ>alpha.So to get alphabet quick and settle citys without chopping I needed every bit of commerce and population.Until the 4th city was settled I believe I still had only 1 warrior running about!(he was woodsmanII though)

@BiC.im loving the "oracle paper" gambit!thats something ive never tried so im looking forward to seeing what weird bulb path you can do with prophets.

 

[elitetroops]

@BiC.im loving the "oracle paper" gambit!thats something ive never tried so im looking forward to seeing what weird bulb path you can do with prophets.

It's an excellent path with Suleiman. Can get you some really early Janissaries. Jans vs archers is so overpowered it isn't even funny anymore. Or, actually, it is a lot of fun!

The other nice thing with bulbing theo is that it has great trade value. Did the paper oracle jan rush on deity once. Trading around theo got me most of the important classical era techs, while I could focus on edu and gunpowder.

 

[FlyingSwan]

Hilarious,no idea what you would do with paper at 1000bc in this particular game,although map tradings something I supose,but you still need alot of tech to get to gunpowder.I guess double bulbing education would be the way to go.

View attachment Jaffer BC-1000 oracle paper!.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hilarious,no idea what you would do with paper at 1000bc

Glad you got a taste of it ! That was exactly my reaction the first time around.
Oh how to do, now ?

Elating, but truly a silly thing to do.
Got me to think maybe Feudalism is the better bulb target. If you're going that deep anyway, that is.

Now... can I find that screen ?
I think I can :

Spoiler :

// Sorry for derailing, will come back on topic.

 

[Pangaea]

Paper without a clue about Alphabet. Guess you could wipe your arse with it

 

[FlyingSwan]

@revent.From the save your looking in good shape.As you didnt go the alpha route you should of researched Hunting asap,the extra commerce and happiness from the elephant you should of been working before maths.So yeah archery>construction>HBR and you should be laughing.Nice to see you put a cottage on the banana-that will win you the game btw.

Youve alot of warriors which I guess hurt your research,but on the bright side,once you build the mids you could slip into Hereditory rule for the happiness.Good thing about bieng SPI is you can easily go into REP when you start running specialists.The warriors then can be garrisons for the AI citys you capture.

The barb city by

Spoiler :

ragnar

should be razed before he can capture it,keeping it would invite a front too far.Looks like you have enough chariots to do it too.No problem losing most of them imo,the loss in troop maintnance/gold gain from the city are worth it.They will be no use against

Spoiler :

shaka

anyway.

When construction comes in chop and whip like a nutter,pre chop some forests for when HBR comes in for the phants.Be good to build a pack of HAs in a city with a stable to go barb city hunting as on your map is alot more explored than where I was at this point,with lots of areas for barbs to spawn citys,and basically I wish Id done it.There may be potential there for gifting a useless city thats miles away to the AI,could be fun.At the very least you should get some very exp HA,s.

@BiC



With Ramasses you just run a couple of prophets with the obolisk.With a perfect start-PH/riverside gems/2 grains turn 50 or before could be done.This has potential then to get scientists running in helper citys to double bulb EDU.With IND egypt a silly quick oxford should be possible.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Revent, 500 BC :
I agree with most of FlyingSwan points.
I think you're in a pretty good position.

Spoiler :

a) You can 1-turn Hunting and improve your ivory tile(s)
b) When you spot Shaka's stack gathering, you can 1-turn Archery, station a Chariot in Pataliputra and then 1-turn an Archer (I've loaded your save and did exactly that... and the DoW didn't come : I suspect you've been daggered for too little defences).
~It's common that Sailing and/or Archery should be researched after Writing is known and before one enters the Classical Era (Alpha trade), when one can't get there in optimal conditions (fast & safely).~

c) You should manage your military : 4 garrison warriors in Vijay are useless. Spread them out where they're useful, send the ones you want to promote to scout or support your Chariots
d) Gather your chariots and capture Nubian. Be wary, though : if you stack your offence 1 + 1 + 1 and then another Chariot, then the barbs will stack their defenders in the same way. If you retreat out of range and bring in 6+ chariots at the same time, they may only face 2-3 archers. Here I disagree with FlyingSwan : I think the city is worth keeping.
e) I'd also aim to secure the coast line north of Mound City. We can see Deer + Copper and it's very possible some extra resources make a city over there very appealing.

f) Nice exploration of the southern island. Make sure to get Galley + Settler + a few units over there (for defence) as soon as you get your hands on Sailing.

g) You can manage your cities a bit... Swapping a few tiles here and there can gain you some precious turns on city growths.
I have my eyes on Pataliputra. I'd like to grow it to size 6 in 2 turns to start on a settler (work the wheat 1 turn, western cottage 1 turn)... get a chop in there to speed it up...
I'd like to get a settler from Delhi as well, I think.

h) You can hire specialists here and there but, overall, if you've got something to build or a size to grow up, it's better to work the grassland mine or the random cottage.

@ FlyingSwan 1880 BC Paper :
Wow, I had never considered that. This is outrageously early.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sorry, can't tell if you're joking

Then do it. You'll really get that "rock and hard place" experience.

The AIs look bad but you put a lightning rod in the game (everyone will hate sitting bull) and both Monty + Izzy can be managed via religion depending on where they are. Toku can be encouraged too (once he's at pleased, he's generally looking/bribed elsewhere). Ragnar and Shaka are problems.

BTW, hillstone + raging barbs makes great wall unusually attractive on this difficulty. You might be able to get it in time.

 

[FlyingSwan]

BTW, hillstone + raging barbs makes great wall unusually attractive on this difficulty. You might be able to get it in time.

Its easy to get it in time,masonry 1st,then agriculture.This sounds counter intuative as the city grows slower,but this way you get the GW finished on turn 27 just as your pop reaches 3 to build your settler.You do have to micro the tiles and worker a bit though.

Ive played this through again a bit building SH instead,again going MAS>AGR,barbs arnt that bad with fogbusting,what saves you here though is the fast worker,I used him a fair bit to fogbust as he can move in and out of forests and unforested hills.Thats only if he has nothing to do,revent went BW 1st which I guess is why he ended up with so many warriors.

@BiC.Yeah the barb city would be a keeper in most circumstances.Either way by keeping or razing you have to prevent ragnar from getting it.The reason I said raze it is if revent goes ahead with the plan to attack monty>SB his army will be on the other side of the map.Im just worried that keeping it would increace border tentions with Ragnar starting a DOW.If/when that happens(ragnar is a bit)will he have the troops to defend it?

 

[sampsa]

1 AD

Spoiler :

Shaka attacked ~400BC and marched straight towards Delhi. 3 promoted archers + a warrior held his 5 melee units easily (only the warrior was lost). He made no other moves and peace was agreed 100BC.

I still was unsure if Monty was coming after me, so I decided to declare myself 275BC, so I was now in three wars. Shaka doesn't have any good cities nearby, so I rather take out Monty and try to ally with the buddha block. Bella+Toku were piling on Ragnar though. Made peace with SB 75BC.

Managed to take 3 cities from Monty so far, losing 7 cats. Should be able to take his capital in three turns. I am doing what I usually do on immortal pangaeaish maps, going towards feudalism to accept capitulations.

Capital is pretty small, as I needed to whip a lighthouse and a monastery to spread buddhism. Still no -resource trades from AI. Have +10 at will, so growing isn't an issue when the happy cap allows.

2nd research center isn't that bad anymore.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@samspsa.Feudalism is a good move,for Longbows as much as capitulations,bare in mind that your vassals can affect your diplo negativly if other AI doesnt like them.I would have a missionary at the ready to convert Monty to buddism if you decide to capitulate rather than kill him.Isabella is looking strong in your game.With these AGG AI even if the whole maps buddist I think war will still break out!

 

[sampsa]

500 AD

Spoiler :

War vs Monty went quite well, took all his cities in sight and capped him. Turns out he has two cities down south, but they are weak so he won't be useful. SB is always a pain in the butt and lost a lot of cats taking his cities. I've been @0% slider for almost the entire turnset so I'm beginning to have doubts if an academy is useful for this strategy. Just bulbed philo (no taoism though as Toku has it) and will start a golden age soon. Losing money @0% but I'm not building wealth anywhere yet so it's not an issue. I'd like to get to engineering but maybe it's just too far and I'll go CS. Looks like I won't be winning this pre 1000AD...

Rags has been getting it from both directions and Shaka is about to declare on SB.

 

[Revent]

520 AD

This has been the most amount of time I've spent co-ordinating this. I spent nearly 6 hours playing this turnset I'm VERY technologically behind. I don't even have alphabet. I'm thinking AP cheese to win this.

Spoiler :

Monty was at war with SB, so I took all of his cities with ease In the middle of my Monty war, I had a second stack making way to then help me take out SB and Shaka declared on me. That longed out the war with Monty and it ended up being a struggle of us both taking his capital and another city. Shaka was also stupid because his main stack was all he had. Apart from 2 units per city, and the odd HA here and there, his mainland was empty so it took A LOT of hassle, but I managed to pin them both down. I'm tempted to go straight for SB's capital and take it as my prize right now. Liberated 2 barb cities I had 2 chariots stalking to Ragnar and Isabella. I'm going to take a bit of a break from this game now because it was mentally exhausting doing all that!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Revent :

Spoiler :

Good going !
You can backtrack on an AP win if you don't feel like warring anymore. That's fine.
However, you can certainly push for a military victory if you wish so.
With 16 cities to Ragnar's 8, you're in a "can't lose position", unless you make a series of serious blunders.

If the AIs have Engineering already (Castles) and you don't, you "just" need more Catapults. A stack of 20 catapults takes down castles' defences down to 0 in a single turn...
... so if you move around a stack of 35+ units, you can certainly keep up the conquest. Numbers are all you need when you have twice the production the AIs have.

Where you should head with your army is debattable. Yes, maybe SB is the better target. Or maybe you can head straight to the East and deem SB is a non-issue.
That said, with 1,6 of SB's power, he looks like easy pickings.

Not having either Alpha nor Currency is a bummer indeed.
Maybe you can extort techs from him ?
Usually, a bulb would be the preferred means to get out of the hole and back into the trading game but, here, it seems out of the question (GS bulbs Alpha...).

If you're unwilling to go to war anymore,
You can certainly spend 15 to 30 turns getting back into economic shape.
Grow cities & work commerce tiles and you'll look good.
If you want to get to Currency asap (appealing given the number of cities), how many libraries do you have ? What happens if you run scientists everywhere ?

It's hard to tell without knowing exactly how backwards you are and what your standing army is.
Maybe a combination of extorting techs from SB, getting to Currency asap and then bulbing into higher tech (Philo/Compass) is the way to go.

Any way I look at it, it may take turns, but the game is in good hands.

[sidenote : careful : it seems the Aztec lands aren't fogbusted and barbs are spawning... could snipe a city]
[hmmm... I just noticed you're two turns away from Strike Nice going, indeed ! I'm not sure how Strike works... loses you 1 unit per turn, and the production from cities as well ? What happens if you run maximum commerce ? Maybe you can still afford the loss of units and capture Cahokia, if that's where your army is standing ? Or is it all in Nobamba ? Not sure, can't see.]

 

[sampsa]

@Revent

Spoiler :

Woah, nice warring but how is it possible to still lack alpha? And I thought I was technologically behind. Tech path? What have you done with your ?