Immortal Cookbook II: Pericles of Greece

[carl corey]

Araneya, I see your report but I don't see a save included with it. Please try to sumbit it today. I'll send this by PM too.

 

[carl corey]

My votes:

Abegweit - 3 points. Capital not so hot, but overall a great empire, lots of workers, great techs and we're already sitting on a GS for Paper with another one coming. Need to build some military though, maybe tech/trade Construction for War Elephants once Civil Service is in.

RRRaskolnikov - 2 points. Great Spies are quite something... A Spy + War Elephant + Swords war against Sury seems very possible, although we'll need to find the production to get it going.

Kaleb - 1 point. Hmm, what's the plan with Theology? Theocracy and war with War Elephants/Cats? We'll need some techs to keep our economy from crashing. Interesting idea nonetheless.

Might review these when we get Araneya's save.

 

[Araneya]

Here's my save, sorry I forgot it The plan is to bulb philosophy with a GS, build Angkor Wat in the Capitol and hire tons of priest and settle all of the GP in Athens, which will together with the shrine, Wall Street and Bureucracy create a crazy capitol.

My votes:

ABigCivFan 3 points- Powerful cities, good techrate. If I hadn't decided to try my weird strategy, then this would probably be my choice, with early monarchy.

Snaaty/Abegweit 2 points- I'm not sure can we vote for Snaaty? Otherwise I vote for Abegweit as I like the idea that you moved the capitol, shareing the fp and opening up other possibilities than bureucracy boosted capitol.

Kaleb 1 point- A really solid game.

 

[DMOC]

DMOC, do you still want to be included in the roster for future rounds? If yes, I'll make an exception for this round but you should be sure you'll have the time to play the next ones.

No I do not want to be included. My CIV playing time is very limited. I will still be hanging around here, of course.

 

[Abegweit]

I put the following together (guess I have too much time on my hands ). I originally had Gliese in the chart too but decided that it wouldn't be right to upload it as he has withdrawn. In evaluating the various games, I have to say that the in-game score seems to pretty accurately reflect the progress of the players. Gliese's score reflects where I would place his game as well.

Undoubtedly (if I could only load his game ) I would find that Snaaty would be on top of the heap... He's one of the very best players in the game after all. I am pleased to find that I followed the same general plan as he did, even if (inevitably) I didn't execute it as well.

More importantly I learned something from his game. As he said, "Move warrior on plainshill, find corn, move settler 88 on forest, else too many FPs..." While I understood the issue about the FPs, I sent my scout southeast. I realise now that I had subconsciously decided where to place the capital before moving him. I can't shake the feeling that every other player in this game made the same mistake. Snaaty's capital location is clearly the best, yet he was the only one to find it. Says something about the difference between the top players and us mere mortals.

Since the rules forbid me from voting for him, here are my choices:

ABigCivFan 3 points

The single-minded obsession with Bureaucracy and the capital simply does not fit this map with its huge amount of beautiful land and numerous excellent cities sites. This has led to many empire-wide defects. These include a sub-optimal research path, the weakest military of any game and poor expansion. Not to mention a cesspool of unhealth in Athens itself.

On the bright side, while the goal was wrong, it has been pursued quite competently. Size 13 Tech rate is decent and, as he points out, will be significantly improved once he gets to CS. The military situation will change rapidly as Sparta churns out units. Good city placement and poised well to expand when he finally gets around to it.

Question: where are the GPs? Aren't we Philosophical? Something else sacrificed for capital development?

I found it close between 2nd and 3rd and eventually decided it this way. The tie breaker was city placement. You can recover from a lot of bad choices but this game doesn't forgive that particular mistake.

RRRaskolnikov 2 points

Good city placement. Decent GNP. Good teching. The Great Wall is always useful.

Worst problem is poor city development. Stalling Athens' growth at size 3? While I think that it should be cottaged, there certainly is nothing wrong with running an SE. However no matter which way you go the city should be far larger. There are a ton of developed tiles in the BFC which are going to waste.

Also, to oversimplify a little, there are four ways to run an economy. Three work. These are: 1) cottage everything, 2) run specialists everywhere and 3) cottage the capital while running specialists elsewhere. Unfortunately, we have made the fourth choice here.

Kaleb 1 point

Well-developed capital. Already has an academy and some towns. Consequently, GNP is decent. Badly needs an Odeon however and should be working on it. This is especially true since Sparta will build the HG in a mere seven turns. When that happens, Athens will be over the happy cap.

This brings me to a more general point about this game, which is that I have to disagree with a lot of the choices made. They seem aimless. Walls? Galleys? Missionaries? Why? We should be training soldiers to take out Avar. Worst of all is the placement of Thebes, which loses the fish.

A mild reproach to all three players: shouldn't you have found the northern fish by now?

 

[DMOC]

It's too late to get my round into voting, but here it is anyway. I seriously think this is the EASIEST Immortal game ever.

To 1 AD

Spoiler :

I played 15 extra turns from the 100 I played previously.

GS #2 came and I sent him to build a second academy (first is in Athens).

I also took advantage of a weird barbarian activity and captured this city with 2 chariots. The 2 workers included were also great.

With all the expansion I was doing, my research might have been hurt a bit -- therefore, I tried to find a solution with this wonder, which can 1) generate some great scientists for me, 2) generate research points, and 3) culturally press Sury and protect Corinth..

By 1 AD:

Tech

Land with 7 cities.

Now, I COULD found an eighth here...

Actually, I should have founded this city many turns earlier. I was planning on founding it in the middle of the jungle 10 turns ago to get the iron, until I realized that I had sailing so founding the city on the coast was the way to go. I should have done it sooner.


City #9 for me will go here once the settler in Thebes is completed.

The capital, doing well reseasrch-wise.

Corinth, which will generate a third Great Scientist for me. I don't know whether I want an academy or a lightbulb.

Overall, game is strong. Nice land, a good city (Corinth) to get Great Scientists, my opponents have a very slow tech rate, Sury, my only real neighbor, is the same religion as me and at war with Lincoln, so that border is safe. The diplomatic situation is also nice as I am part of the Hindu block, whereas the only Buddhists are Bismarck and a weak Lincoln.

Also, my worker up in the northern lands is almost done with a fur camp, which will allow my cities to get +1 population room. I am preparing for a population boom soon once my expansion is close to finishing up. My 9 workers will also help in this case.


See? Seriously, I think it would be hard to LOSE....I agree with Snatty that getting 10-11 cities is GAME OVER for the AI's. Sury won't hurt me since he's after Lincoln, Bismarck won't because he can't get to my land due to no open borders with Sury, Catherine won't threaten me because she shares a HUGE border with both Wang and Darius.

 

[ABigCivFan]

ABigCivFan 3 points

The single-minded obsession with Bureaucracy and the capital simply does not fit this map with its huge amount of beautiful land and numerous excellent cities sites. This has led to many empire-wide defects. These include a sub-optimal research path, the weakest military of any game and poor expansion. Not to mention a cesspool of unhealth in Athens itself.

On the bright side, while the goal was wrong, it has been pursued quite competently. Size 13 Tech rate is decent and, as he points out, will be significantly improved once he gets to CS. The military situation will change rapidly as Sparta churns out units. Good city placement and poised well to expand when he finally gets around to it.

Question: where are the GPs? Aren't we Philosophical? Something else sacrificed for capital development?

The reason for "single minded obsession of Bureaucracy" in this particular game is because the capital site and synergy.

It can grow fast and work 16 cottages. when you put in

Academy+oxford+science inprovments+Bureaucracy, this city will generate more beakers than 10 other cities combined for most of the game.

This again is the reason that you do not want to "share" the flood plains with other cities since the other cities do not get Academy and Oxford (+150% beakers)

Anyone interested can run some simple math on this and you will see the potential in these numbers.

Health is no issue, rice and fish are being hooked up, as long as this city grows fast enough to work all the cottagable tiles, health is 0 of concern.

Larger and more powerful cities can produce anything faster: settler/workers/military.

I did plan to work 2 scientists in any one of cities to get 1 more GS to bulb Education, the rest can be researched very fast anyway after Bureaucracy comes in.

Currency/Calender can be traded within a few turns.

I do not think this game is a "win" yet at this point, we have other fast expanding AIs in the game who can still be of challenge.

 

[Abegweit]

Since the topic of capital placement has been a considerable controversy on this thread, here is an interesting question which might shed some light on why Snaaty said that a city can have too many flood plains.

My Athens has 18 cottageable tiles while ABCF's only has 15 (well, 19 and 18 respectively if you cottage resources). Assuming enough health and happiness, both capitals can easily support all those cottages.

So here's the question. Given that I have a surplus of 11 food and 5 health while he has a surplus of 7 food and a deficit of 6 health, how long will it be before my city is cottaging more tiles than his?

Bonus question for extra points. My capital is using 4 FPs while the start location uses 11. What do you think will happen to the other seven tiles? I'm sure you know but the answer can be found in my screen-shot of Knossos. That happens to be a Holy City and can also support 18 cottages. I think I have decided what to do with the GS dozing in my capital.

 

[Abegweit]

I do not think this game is a "win" yet at this point, we have other fast expanding AIs in the game who can still be of challenge.

Dude, this game is indeed won, both in your game and mine. Not to mention Snaaty's and Gliese's. I'm already second in score and rising rapidly. Several of the other games are very playable as well. The start is simply too good. Doesn't feel like Immortal at all.

Furthermore, I think I've made an excellent case that my capital is actually better suited to bureaucracy than yours. In any case, the main difference between the two is that I have only started growing mine while you have devoted the entire game to it.

 

[DMOC]

Agree with Abegweit. I don't see how any AI can pose a threat. The only AI's who NORMALLY would pose a threat will typically target others in this game.

 

[carl corey]

Hey, don't discount our ability to lose from a powerful position!

 

[Abegweit]

I can see one way to do it. ABCF is so weak militarily that a DOW by Sury would be very hard to handle. The window of opportunity is narrow, however, and I doubt that Sury will take advantage.

 

[DMOC]

Well Sury will likely be targeting a certain leader to his southwest.... (due to base peaceweight differences)

Spoiler :

Lincoln

And compared to the immortal level AI's, I never am with them militarily until the Renaissance since I have much more important things to build early on than costly units.

 

[ABigCivFan]

I can see one way to do it. ABCF is so weak militarily that a DOW by Sury would be very hard to handle. The window of opportunity is narrow, however, and I doubt that Sury will take advantage.

Talk about serious shortsightness and lack of understanding of the game. take out my save.

 

[carl corey]

Guys, please stop bickering here, it's only a game.

 

[Abegweit]

Agree with Abegweit. I don't see how any AI can pose a threat. The only AI's who NORMALLY would pose a threat will typically target others in this game.

Just noticed that you posted your 1AD save. Yet another won game.

 

[Abegweit]

Talk about serious shortsightness and lack of understanding of the game.

Not true. Rather it was simply a little dig which was thoughtless, unnecessary and uncalled for. Sorry. Please accept my apologies.

 

[carl corey]

We've got 4 votes so far, with RRRaskolnikov saying he won't vote since he's not close to a Civ computer to open the saves. That leaves 3 people to vote on Sunday. We've got quite a race so far, so please make your preferences known. Every vote counts!

Araneya, Snaaty's save isn't included in the vote, so I noted your other submission for 2nd place.

 

[Abegweit]

Well Sury will likely be targeting a certain leader to his southwest.... (due to base peaceweight differences)

Spoiler :

Lincoln

I totally agree (and I said it earlier). I do not believe that ABCF will get dow'd. I did say that, among the best saves, the only route to failure is an out-of-blue DOW on a weak civ. I also said that his is the weakest. I stand by both assertions.

There are also the other saves.

Out of all of us only CarlCorey was unlucky enough to get a DOW. Despite this, he was - and still is - stronger than ABCF. While he is clearly in last place, except for the tiny size of all his cities and the war against a stronger neighbour, his game actually has good potential.

I would like to try and turn around this decent attempt against bad luck around instead of simply trotting some other game out to victory. So if it's allowed, I would like to change my vote. CC: 3. Other: 0.

Edit: whatever the result of the vote, I will be playing this game. It is down in the hole but has a lot of positives.

 

[carl corey]

I think I'll still go with the best save here. It's only the second time I play Immortal and I'm sure that there are still things to learn even from a "won game" save. If anyone wants to play from another save they are of course free to do it, but it will be a shadow game.