Immortal Minimalism, Chapter I - Hatshepsut

[Um the Muse]

Co-op= cooperation. My dad and I team up and play against the AI. Not very sporting, but that's what he likes.

Just a little nitpick: a point of health is only worth a point of food per turn when you're at your health limit. You've gone a good part of the game without getting that extra benefit, so to compare them, you should multiply the hammer per turn loss (assuming that's the opportunity cost; it's probably higher by now) by how many turns you're experiencing the loss (from when you could have worked those tiles till you get lumbermills or your costs have changed in some other way). Do the same thing to the benefits you get from saving the trees. Now compare the two. Which one you'd prefer is a matter of taste, but I can almost guarantee that you'll gain more hammers than you'll lose in food. By a lot. Still, I don't know if you could have even benefited from those extra hammers, whereas I'm pretty sure you'll find a use for that extra food.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Seriously don't know what to think about this whole thread! I've enjoyed, as I always do, the strategic discussion, but the game being played is so... different from what I would play myself.

I am taking notes on diplomacy and tech trading though. I... generally turn off tech trading since it seems exploitative in some cases, and unfair in others (getting islanded).

It feels odd that you played a Spiritual Creative ruler, and then focus neither on civic changes nor culture as your strategies. Heck, you haven't built a single obelisk or war chariot either. Pericles at least looks like he'd suit your playstyle better.

 

[yatta77]

Co-op= cooperation. My dad and I team up and play against the AI. Not very sporting, but that's what he likes.

That's cool that you have a common interest with your father!
By the way: poor AIs, not just one human to fight against... TWO of them!

Just a little nitpick: a point of health is only worth a point of food per turn when you're at your health limit. You've gone a good part of the game without getting that extra benefit, so to compare them, you should multiply the hammer per turn loss (assuming that's the opportunity cost; it's probably higher by now) by how many turns you're experiencing the loss (from when you could have worked those tiles till you get lumbermills or your costs have changed in some other way). Do the same thing to the benefits you get from saving the trees. Now compare the two. Which one you'd prefer is a matter of taste, but I can almost guarantee that you'll gain more hammers than you'll lose in food. By a lot. Still, I don't know if you could have even benefited from those extra hammers, whereas I'm pretty sure you'll find a use for that extra food.

Not a nitpick at all! Thanks for this post!

An extremely fair point!

In a game like the vranasm one I linked many posts above, with ALL the food resources available in the end-game, the hammers you talk about are way more, and way more crucial than that +2 saving 4 forests per city.
Let's call this "Mordor style".

In a game like this one I'm playing, with FEW food resources available in the end game, this +2 is way more important than the lost hammers.
Let's call this "Elrond style".

Now, I can admit Mordor style > Elrond style, in the sense of more remunerative generically speaking.

But if you chose to go Elrond style, don't chop is a logic alternative.

So, differently than "worker first", which is likely better in both scenarios (excluded few exceptions, as a workboat for seafood in some cases, and maybe an Imperialist leader with a 3 forested hill building a questionable settler), in this case the issue is not so straightforward, and chose to don't chop has his own logic.

If we can agree on this, we agree on everything!

No we disagree on a subject still: I still believe you know too much about game mechanics to consider yourself just a monarch player: I don't think I know better than you, and I consider myself as an emperor wannabe immortal one.

Seriously don't know what to think about this whole thread! I've enjoyed, as I always do, the strategic discussion, but the game being played is so... different from what I would play myself.

Thanks for the feedback! This was welcome!
Really, I'm glad to show readers something different.
They can judge it as something they like or not, but different it is hardly boring.

I am taking notes on diplomacy and tech trading though. I... generally turn off tech trading since it seems exploitative in some cases, and unfair in others (getting islanded).

It feels odd that you played a Spiritual Creative ruler, and then focus neither on civic changes nor culture as your strategies. Heck, you haven't built a single obelisk or war chariot either. Pericles at least looks like he'd suit your playstyle better.

As I wrote in the OP

Playing on Immortal, try to achieve a Peaceful Victory (likely Space Race or Cultural) with various Leaders and Civilizations.

It is quite straightforward that a philosophic leader would work well here, but What would be the point to play all philosophic leaders? Actually I didn't pick a philosophic leader in purpose for the first game, to avoid claims that it works just because of the philosophic trait synergy with a SE.

Hatshepsut was good for space race for the creative trait (land enough for 6 cities thanks to the quick expansion of cultural borders), and IMO spiritual is definitely good combined to pyramids to switch civics quick in case of danger (as war). I use it as an insurance policy, and it works well with me. I didn't make a big use of it till now, but you never know. And still, it cut 5 critical turns of anarchy. The stronger all-around trait if you ask me.

If I win this game, for the next (if I'll have free time enough to continue with this series) I'm thinking about an archipelago map cultural victory playing Genghis Khan, with few more other restrictions as well, since cultural is easier for me.
I hope it is going to be a fun, different, game!

I agree in the Tech Trading being a too powerful weapon in human hands, but I can win (on emperor, never tried on immortal) this way also with Tech Trading off.

And this is a good idea actually: a next chapter could be a Gandhi (here a philosophic leader) space race without Tech Trading.

 

[yatta77]

Session 15, turn 179, 1190AD.
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


Glance: the previous technologies trade deal brought Asoka to friendly.



Technologies screen: Asoka discovered chemistry and he's friendly.
Egypt wants to trade education for it, not astronomy which is Egyptian monopoly.
Both chemistry and education cost 2925 science points.
So Asoka will likely refuse an even deal.



A bit of micro in Heliopolis: starving again at size 9 with 6 scientists to maximize great people points.



One turn in chemistry thinking on the next deal with Asoka.



Overview of Egypt: Mansa, cautious, is 1 turn from corporation.
Egypt run 0% science to maximize the gold in treasury, thinking about the deal with Asoka.
(I believe free gold is weighed by AIs in trades more than science points already spent in chemistry, but I might be wrong here)



Technologies screen:
Asoka is willing to trade chemistry as expected.
Mansa is willing to trade economics as well.



Yay! Here the deal with Asoka: chemistry is in for education and 180 gold.



Heliopolis stops starving. At size 9 stagnant runs 5 scientists.
The next great person will born here in 2 turns: 89% scientist, 11% engineer.



Cities outputs screen: quick check on great people farms.
The Alexandria >> Heliopolis >> Thebes >> Memphis plan is working so far.



Technologies screen: Mansa misses chemistry and is willing to trade economics.
Egypt still have the monopoly on liberalism, astronomy and scientific method.



Here the deal with Mansa: economics for chemistry and 25 gold.



A bit of micro in Thebes: University of Oxford in exactly 1 turn.
Running 1 engineer and 5 scientists the next great person will be in 2 turns.



Heliopolis: as planned, the next great person the next turn!



Pi-Ramses lost the farm, but will finish the observatory right before dropping 1 population.



Glance: Asoka still friendly; Mansa for some reason is pleased at +0.



Overview of Egypt: Mansa will discover democracy in 2 turns.



Thebes completed Oxford University. Pi-Ramses completed the observatory.
The planned great person, a great scientist, was born in Heliopolis and setteld in Thebes.



Thebes, with the Oxford University, generates now, turn 179, 1190AD, 380.25 science/turn.
The city is stagnant at size 11, running 7 scientists, at 100% science, with positive gold.
This just settled was the sixth great scientist being a permanent resident in Thebes.
The first (of the seven great scientists) built the academy in this city.
The first great engineer built the Great Library also here in Thebes.
The second still unused, here in Thebes as well.
The next great person will born here in just two turns.



Technologies screen: Egypt still have the monopoly on liberalism, astronomy and scientific method.



Overview of Egypt: turn 179, 1190AD.
Output of 633 science/turn and 17 gold/turn with the slider at 100% science.
Egypt will discover physics in 6 turns, Mansa is 1 turn away from democracy.



Cities output screen: next great people birth plan is Thebes >> Memphis.



---

End session.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I wouldn't trade the Moai Statues with the great scientist I got in Alexandria without whipping.

Well, you were willing to trade a Fish for a Grassland Forest.

Working the Fish plus a bit of whipping is far superior working to the Grassland Forest in place of the Fish.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If I were you, I would not let Pi-Ramesses shrink down to City Size 3. Why would you want your empire to have less citizens in Cities that are nowhere near their Happiness and Healthiness caps, particularly now that Heliopolis has generated what is likely to be its last Great Person and can thus afford to give back a Food-based square to Pi-Ramesses?

 

[yatta77]

Well, you were willing to trade a Fish for a Grassland Forest.

Working the Fish plus a bit of whipping is far superior working to the Grassland Forest in place of the Fish.

Please, is 5:05 AM here, I have to wake up 7:25AM, I don't wish to pick this discussion now.
My quick answer: put 5 turns out of caste system in the equation, tell me what's better. From my experience: don't whip. I might be wrong.
I'll reply to anything else few hours from now, I definitely need some sleep.
Please, let's keep this just as a friendly academical talk on a video game.
I know you are a better player than I am, and I thank you for everything you explained.
But please, try to understand also my point of view in doing things the way I do: I'm fine with you saying it is not worth it, but at least fairly recognize what I gain in the balance/equation, even if smaller than what you claim I'm losing! Thanks!

 

[yatta77]

If I were you, I would not let Pi-Ramesses shrink down to City Size 3. Why would you want your empire to have less citizens in Cities that are nowhere near their Happiness and Healthiness caps, particularly now that Heliopolis has generated what is likely to be its last Great Person and can thus afford to give back a Food-based square to Pi-Ramesses?

I guess I'm lacking the free-time and the patience to run this kind of experiments.

Anyways: attached an edited file of a screen shot posted above.

In Red the tiles Heliopolis (probably also the IronWorks city) must work while building the space ship components; the number is the quantity of food.

In Blue the tiles Heliopolis (probably also the IronWorks city) might work while building the space ship components; the number is the quantity of food. The point is that it is better if, at least the farm one, will be worked by Thebes or Memphis. Heliopolis needs the corn then for feed the engineers specialists.

The Black X and the Orange X the tiles Heliopolis cannot work, since likely worked by Thebes and Memphis. The two ivory in the middle of those X will be two workshop then and worked either by Thebes or Memphis.

Now if you look at Pi-Ramses, it cannot be stagnant at size 4, because there is a 2food grass forest and all the rest is 1 food tile. So the only way is to make a farm in that famous forest we where talking about earlier, so it goes from 7 to 9 food at size 4 and grow the city to size 5 working at size 5 a coast tile for 10 food (all the other land tiles in the CFC of Pi-Ramses are used by other cities).

If my workers have some spare time they will probably chop that forest in a farm.
I don't know, and sincerely I don't care.
That city is there to build a university and a forge for Oxford and IronWorks: the day (if this day will ever come) I'll feel good enough to win a space race on Standard / Standard / Immortal with 3-4 GP farms and without Oxford and Ironworks, as for Standard /Standard / Immortal culture victory, I won't found that city at all (as I won't found Alexandria then).

Please understand this is the concept of this series.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Please understand this is the concept of this series.

So, now that Oxford is built, do you still need the auxilliary Cities? Are there other National Wonders that you were hoping to build, such as The Globe Theatre, or has a City like Pi-Ramesses essentially finished doing its duty in your mind?

 

[vranasm]

@Zechnophobe

creative trait is definitely not cultural victory trait, if any trait would be then probably Philosophical.
Your typical legendary city will pump out over 500 cpt when you finally turn the culture slider up... the trait influence is under <1%

@yatta

to me health is lesser problem typically. There is river/lake/oasis +2 bonus, granary for early game.
If you wouldn't place your cities 1 off coast then harbor ofc.
late game after factories+coal plants it's grocer and supermarket which are pretty effective.
Biology helps with battling unhealthiness too (it's reverse logic - you produce on each farm +1f more to cover for the citizen unhealthiness)
And if you talk about space race then typically after Genetics it's "over".

The only really problematic cities with health are flood plains ones.

2 tiles for battling 1 unhealthiness is too high price imo.

But you're right that in scenario where you are sitting at health cap working 3f grassland farm just for growing into more unhealthiness certainly doesn't pay back. Except if you plan to whip that citizen away for quicker production of anything.

And I wouldn't use forest preserves in 6 city empire like at all... I almost never use them anyway. (National park is too far away and too abstract to bother with in the time where I need hammers from forests).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

(National park is too far away and too abstract to bother with in the time where I need hammers from forests).

Well, given the way that he has been playing (what looks like planning on running Specialists until the end of the game), I would not be surprised to see him building The National Park in one of his Cities.

For a compact empire, he certainly has a good number of Forests remaining to him.

The only shame is that he can't put a 3rd National Wonder in his capital.

He has also emphasized his preference for building Hydro Plants over Coal Plants, so he could certainly pick a City that is on a River (i.e. so that it can later build a Hydro Plant) which has a decent amount of production (to be able to complete The National Park within a reasonable timeframe) and which has a decent amount of Forests that he doesn't mind permanently putting Forest Preservers on top of (for extra free Scientist Specialists).


For a Cultural game, there are better traits than Creative, but Spiritual is one of the better ones, and combined with the ability to leverage her Unique Unit and Unique Building early in the game, I would still rank her as one of the good Leaders to choose for a Cultural Victory.

The Creative Trait isn't TOO bad these days, with cheap Libraries (you're unlikely to build Universities in a Cultural game but you'll want Libraries everywhere) and cheap Theatres (which you're going to want to build at least 6 of so that you can get The Globe Theatre). These bonuses to Buildings from the Creative Trait aren't the best of bonuses, but they certainly help more than the Creative Trait did in Vanilla where these Building bonuses did not exist.

 

[yanner39]

The real masters here are AbsoluteZero (he's my hero and moved me like no one else with his videos), Vicawoo, Kossin and some others (Obsolete btw too, but he posts so sparely and in a way too tough to understand...)

AZ is unreal. I've been checking out his vids lately. His warring is excellent. What I find amazing is how he settles like sub-par cities with little food and I'm there thinking "What the f**k's he doing?!?". But then that's his plan all along - keep his first cities small so that he can whip up an army and essentially whip when a city is between 4 and 5 pop.

@yatta

Enjoying this thread - great details. You said something I can related to when you said you weren't a good rexer. I'm like that as well. I hear of players getting 10-12 cities by 1AD but if I get 7, I'm happy.

 

[yatta77]

Sorry all. I give up. I would continue with this project with big enthusiasm, but it is too much time consuming.

I don't wish continuing without giving all the details in reports as I've been doing so far, I don't wish to miss answering all the comment promoting any discussion as I have been doing so far, but I just can't dedicate so much time to keep all this running.

I feel a bit ashamed about giving up on my own project.

In my defense I can only say that I've been losing too many hours of sleep these last days.

Special Thanks to all the contributors, I remember everything posted in here, and I appreciated the time all those posters spent to give feedback: Dhoomstriker, vranasm, Um the Muse, GGracchus, lymond, Freakz, s.bernbaum, barbertje, XRW175P6MQ4, Zechnophobe, joanne, MarigoldRan, futurehermit, coanda, Habitus, Zx Zero Zx, paulmcc, oranje willem, Mylene, yanner39, General Olaf, and soundjata who spent his first civfanatics post ever in this thread. Thanks all!

It was a very nice experience for me creating this thread and playing this game, which I believe was my best game ever; I hope it was a bit fun, entertaining or interesting for at least few of the over 3000 viewers. Thanks to all, in any case.

As promised, all the saves are attached.

Please feel free to replay the map and/or continue the game and any discussion, I'll be lurking anyways and maybe posting few lines.

And feel free to make some irony and sarcasm on this series being so minimalistic that lasted less than one chapter.

 

[paulmcc]

Sorry to see you stopping - I find it labour intensive enough just playing, never mind recording my thought processes as I go along.

As various people have said, you have opened up different ways of playing the game and I can definitely see myself trying the few cities/no war approach myself.

Don't be down on yourself for deciding you actually have to live too!

So, many thanks to you, and hopefully you might be able to pick up this game, or try some others, once we can manage to have 29 hours in a day, not 24!

 

[vranasm]

And feel free to make some irony and sarcasm on this series being so minimalistic that lasted less than one chapter.

Actually this funny and made me smile...

Too bad you can't continue. I hope you will be soon back with playing civ again!

 

[Zechnophobe]

@Zechnophobe

creative trait is definitely not cultural victory trait, if any trait would be then probably Philosophical.
Your typical legendary city will pump out over 500 cpt when you finally turn the culture slider up... the trait influence is under <1%

I had not meant to imply that cultural VICTORY is needed, but in general cultural trait allows:

1) Easy and aggressive land grabs early on, because you can count on ring two
2) Speedy use of Libraries (done here)
3) Cheaper than normal access to Globe Theater
4) Cheaper than normal access to colosseums.

That is, in my opinion, the rough order of importance of the trait. Globe theater city can be used as a GPF too, which might have crossover with Cultural victory but... isn't necessary.

 

[Zechnophobe]

@Yatta

I actually found this very enlightening. I don't often play on Immortal (Emperor is about the challenge I like). But part of this is because I like to warmonger in the middle to late game, and it always feels like a real pain. Seeing a fairly viable non-rex strategy really impresses me. Sure, you aren't necessarily going to win in record time, but you've lined it up nicely to win pretty consistently. I may pick up your save file and play around with it a bit.

 

[vranasm]

I shadowed to 25 BC without minimalistic approach the way I usually quickly click through the games (ehm :-D not good really).

One thing I can say... at least I am still in business .

Cottages spammed a bit the river area and capital, so I hope i will be able to stay in business

some screens for motivation

Spoiler :

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks go out to you, yatta77, for your contributions here! Certainly, they have been enlightening for all of us.

Real life gets in the way of gaming sometimes (okay, it is really the other way around, but as gamers, we like to pretend otherwise).

You should not feel any pressure to do anything that you don't feel up to doing.

If the game is starting to feel like a chore, then don't play it.

Play another one, play this one out without telling us how it went, or even go outside for a run!!! Whatever makes you happy, go ahead and do it (with the noteable exception of not trampling on the rights of others, such as going around and kicking other people for the "fun" of it, etc ).

 

[yatta77]

Sorry to see you stopping - I find it labour intensive enough just playing, never mind recording my thought processes as I go along.

As various people have said, you have opened up different ways of playing the game and I can definitely see myself trying the few cities/no war approach myself.

Thanks. Appreciated!

Don't be down on yourself for deciding you actually have to live too!

So, many thanks to you, and hopefully you might be able to pick up this game, or try some others, once we can manage to have 29 hours in a day, not 24!

Yeah, that's exactly the problem with it!
I respect so much people who find the patience to write guides and articles for that, so much of their probably little free-time dedicated to explain things to others, caring about being honest and correct, and still having doubts about the quality if their work.

Too bad you can't continue. I hope you will be soon back with playing civ again!

Hey! Don't worry, I'm quitting just this project, not Civ Iv and neither this friendly community. A couple of days of break, and then I'll be playing a definitively "less detailed" IU game #57! And I'll be around spreading my silliness anyways.

I had not meant to imply that cultural VICTORY is needed, but in general cultural trait allows:

1) Easy and aggressive land grabs early on, because you can count on ring two
2) Speedy use of Libraries (done here)
3) Cheaper than normal access to Globe Theater
4) Cheaper than normal access to colosseums.

That is, in my opinion, the rough order of importance of the trait. Globe theater city can be used as a GPF too, which might have crossover with Cultural victory but... isn't necessary.

Creative IMO is definitely good for culture because it "opens up" your cultural borders and gain some land early without wars, not for the +2/turn of course. It is an indirect effect, but very strong in my opinion for a cultural victory, besides the libraries half price.

@Yatta

I actually found this very enlightening. I don't often play on Immortal (Emperor is about the challenge I like). But part of this is because I like to warmonger in the middle to late game, and it always feels like a real pain. Seeing a fairly viable non-rex strategy really impresses me. Sure, you aren't necessarily going to win in record time, but you've lined it up nicely to win pretty consistently. I may pick up your save file and play around with it a bit.

Please, if you feel like it, DO so!
I'm pretty confident I would have no problems being first to Computer, build Internet and be first to Fusion, but about win the game by space ship before anyone else would win the same way, by culture or by domination, I still would give me a 50% chance. I'd love to see you win this game, also because I lost the same type of game by just one turn in Immortal University game #55 (link in my signature, if you care about).

I shadowed to 25 BC without minimalistic approach the way I usually quickly click through the games (ehm :-D not good really).

One thing I can say... at least I am still in business .

Cottages spammed a bit the river area and capital, so I hope i will be able to stay in business

some screens for motivation

I'll check them out for sure!

Thanks go out to you, yatta77, for your contributions here! Certainly, they have been enlightening for all of us.

Real life gets in the way of gaming sometimes (okay, it is really the other way around, but as gamers, we like to pretend otherwise).

You should not feel any pressure to do anything that you don't feel up to doing.

If the game is starting to feel like a chore, then don't play it.

Play another one, play this one out without telling us how it went, or even go outside for a run!!! Whatever makes you happy, go ahead and do it (with the noteable exception of not trampling on the rights of others, such as going around and kicking other people for the "fun" of it, etc ).

Yeah, real life. Yeah, social life. Yeah, at least one hour of sun a day for vitamin D related health human needs. Yeah, all the nice things you said! But please, just add also work please.
Work is a really a kind of bad "curse" for the humanity.

I was really enthusiastic to play this and keep on detail the reports the way I did so far, having discussion on game mechanism topics, and such... really.
It is only a matter of time for me: I can't be sleepy at work.

This game itself wasn't a chore at all, it was challenging for me since I never succeed by space race so far on immortal (was my 5th game ever on that level, and Culturally I did succeed on the second experiment ever, yatta!).

I'm competitive, I like the challenge and the pressure of it, and I live it in a good way.
It is the same in sports for me:
- if I win I have a good laugh and forget about it after 5 minutes
- if I lose I have a good laugh and forget about it after 5 minutes
- but while playing I can't help take the task doing my best, considering my performance as something important.

I mean, it helps not feeling guilty of anything later, and it is FUN for me!
Yeah, I trash talk a bit too much, both in sports and Civ Iv games, it just help me to keep high the concentration.
But actually I enjoy all this, I'm never "angry" or living it with victory obsession, frustration or bad feelings. I like that feeling of showing myself I'm good enough, and I care about it. That's all!

The problem with aborting this project it is just me not having time enough to keep on doing it the way I did so far, and me not wishing to proposing it in a less careful and detailed way. I like people proposing a worth to read work, and even if I don't know how much this project is so, I know it surely won't be worth to read if I don't propose it in a careful, and hence time consuming, way.

---

Sincerely,
Thanks All!