Immortal Minimalism, Chapter IV - Montezuma

If you don't get to mass media first to rush the UN, you're going to lose the game. I don't see where you're going to get your long term commerce with your empire.

Given that you can't even research paper yet, it's pretty unlikely to win the liberalism race at this point. The two civs with philosophy already have paper so they're both likely going for liberalism.

You won't get a straight philosophy -- civil service trade at this level. You'll need to invest a few beakers in CS first. Paper is cheaper so philosophy -- paper is a doable trade (KK should help here).

Also, you might as well put clam hill 1E of its maker so that it can share some food tiles with Tenochtitlan while growing.
You can trade 2 tech for one ;)
Next turn save attached.

Good call on Clamhill 1E but I wish to save 2 forest (+1health in capital)

EDIT:
Just adding a couple of screen shots (uploaded session X (just 1 turn), 1120AD);
the save was already attached earlier.

- might even maybe getting something else from paper in the next turns.
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- education next, nobody discovered it already.
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Not saying the liberalism race will be easy, it is going to be hard; however, far from impossible. And get first to mass media might be possible as well.
Just my silly opinion of course, let's see... :)
 
In case someone still interested in this, things are going pretty positively...
Spoiler :
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more screen shots and detailed report in the link in my signature.
...the issue now seems only about getting everybody voting for Montezuma. :D (:lol: <- self-irony here ;))

Save attached.
 
Looks like it is going well. You need scientists and to make sure you reach Mass Media first!!
 
Looks like it is going well. You need scientists and to make sure you reach Mass Media first!!
Hey! Sure I will running scientists! ;)
It is what this strategy was all about! :)

And, technologically and UN production wise, as you can see, no matter losing the Great Library and the liberalism race, is pretty much done already. :)
Spoiler :
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Save attached. More details in my signature.
Doubts at the moment are:
- With 3 great engineers available (another thing the Pyramids are good for ;)), besides building the UN not being a problem anymore, one of them could hurry up Oxford University; but, is it still worth to found another city, then build 6 universities, just to be able to build Oxford University in Clamcorn, or it is already too late? The alternative would be build the National Park, gaining two happy faces and two free scientists (from two forest preserves), plus infinite health. And in this second case, skipping the Oxford University, how should the third great engineer be used?
- Are the Moai Statues worth to be built somewhere at this point? If so, where?
- It is better to run mercantilism (95% IMO) or free market (5% IMO)?
- What is the best way to gain diplomatic victory votes? Which civilizations target as desperately needed friends?
- Is biology (for city growth and National Park) the next most useful technology after discovering mass media?

Cheers! :)
 
Wow this game is going better then expected. Not even in a techhole and 3 GE's still in reserve.

On to the questions:
1) Building Maoi is still definitely worth it. You could build it in fisherhill to increase the cultural pressure and maybe even gain the 2 sea food over there. Small chance but hey you like minimal chances in this game :p Maoi is going to help a lot building the university over there too.
2) About mercantilism or free market. That is all up to how other nations are running their civs. If they are all in merc then there is no use for FM. If you want to battle the russian culture then merc is better.
3) What is the reason to keep the forest next to your capitol? If you farm it over your other corn is irrigated too so you must have a cunning plan for that tile (lumbermill?).
4) I love the fact that Dyelake is building a university and isn't using the two grassland mines :)

Keep it up. Great report in your signature :)
 
Free market is probably better if at least one other civ is not in mercantilism. You figure each foreign trade route is worth 6 coins minimum, so that's about the value of a rep. specialist.

I'm a little surprised to see the AI crippled this badly on this map script. Then again, I guess there isn't much land...

If you get +1 long peace, +2 resources, +2 OB, +4 fair trade, then that's +9 modifiers towards a UN vote. You just need another +2-3 to account for the AI's inherent hatred of you (-1) and its random diplo modifier (at worst -2 I think) to guarantee a UN vote for you. I can't tell from the mini-map who your likely UN opponent is though, so can't help you there :sad:

edit: I'd also seriously consider settling your second GE but that's just me...
 
1) Building Maoi is still definitely worth it. You could build it in fisherhill to increase the cultural pressure and maybe even gain the 2 sea food over there. Small chance but hey you like minimal chances in this game :p Maoi is going to help a lot building the university over there too.
Uhm... I'm now starting to think about something... Hermitage! Those 2 seafood must be Aztecs, population is needed for votes, that's why the city is running an artist. Using a GE to build Hermitage, would make it a lot better. And the Maoi might help completing the task. It might even end up flipping that Russian city... I'll think about.
2) About mercantilism or free market. That is all up to how other nations are running their civs. If they are all in merc then there is no use for FM. If you want to battle the russian culture then merc is better.
Yep, 2 artists (1free) in Fisherhill would be good. That's why I'm thinking towards mercantilism, but FM with all those OB is nice also.
3) What is the reason to keep the forest next to your capitol? If you farm it over your other corn is irrigated too so you must have a cunning plan for that tile (lumbermill?).
2 forests with National Park is 2 free specialists, and with infinite health, the 2 happy from forest preserves are useful!
4) I love the fact that Dyelake is building a university and isn't using the two grassland mines :)
Yeah, if no Oxford in capital no need to rush those universities.
Keep it up. Great report in your signature :)
Thanks! :)

Free market is probably better if at least one other civ is not in mercantilism. You figure each foreign trade route is worth 6 coins minimum, so that's about the value of a rep. specialist.
True, overall for commerce free market is likely better; the advantage of mercantilism is about: (a) the second artist in Fisherhill, (b) more gpp in the capital city. I'm a bit unsure, but I guess I'll end up with mercantilism, at least while grabbing those two seafood from the Russian.
I'm a little surprised to see the AI crippled this badly on this map script. Then again, I guess there isn't much land...
Yeah! On tiny islands maps the hammers are so few! 2 Hills is like the maximum a city can have. Btw, this make the +1 hammer bonus from caste system workshops quite nice!
If you get +1 long peace, +2 resources, +2 OB, +4 fair trade, then that's +9 modifiers towards a UN vote. You just need another +2-3 to account for the AI's inherent hatred of you (-1) and its random diplo modifier (at worst -2 I think) to guarantee a UN vote for you. I can't tell from the mini-map who your likely UN opponent is though, so can't help you there :sad:
THAT! :)
Please (anyone) elaborate a bit more if possible, I'm mostly used to space race or culture and I don't even remember when I won the last diplomatic game: what diplomatic bonus is exactly needed to get a vote? +9? +12? Up to friendly? Depends on leader? Any good link about the issue? :)
edit: I'd also seriously consider settling your second GE but that's just me...
I'm on the same boat! I always settle the next GSs in the academy city! Here I got many GEs, and the third (2 are for the UN) I was going to settle it, but I thought about hurry Oxford, and now I'm thinking about hurrying Hermitage, but I'm not so sure about it. So I'll likely end up settling the guy in Clamcorn anyways!

Now that I'm close, I start thinking a bit more about making sure to don't miss any chance! :D
 
TMiT put together an excellent short guide to UN victory a while ago which might be useful to consult at this point.

Just in terms of vote-counting...
You need 60% of the votes.
Looking at how the land is broken up, I think your most likely opponent is Sitting Bull (but you might end up running against Willem). It'd be important to figure out which of them is going to be your opponent, so you don't waste time trying to win their votes.
If you lose Sitting Bull, Willem, and Pacal, it's going to be almost impossible to get enough votes. Ideally you'd earn the votes of 2 of those 3 (the 2 you aren't running against), plus several of the smaller civs' votes.
If Sitting Bull ends up your opponent, you're going to want to use espionage to switch his religion and/or civics so Pacal doesn't like him so much.
 
Oh, I forgot the "You have shared your technological discoveries with us" bonus. For every 10 techs you give an AI, you get a +1 in relations. These techs can be either through tech trades or tech gifts. I've managed +3 a few times. +1 and +2 aren't too hard to reach if you trade aggressively and gift techs towards the end of the game.

You can get Darius and Willem to vote for you with free religion (and it'll remove religious negatives against the other leaders). I think Hannibal's favorite civic is free market so he shouldn't be hard to court. Sitting Bull is probably not worth courting as he's likely hated by others (so you risk picking up trading with worst enemy penalties). You can get both Peter and KK using bureaucracy. If you add on Nappy (representation), that should be enough votes to win. You just need your opponent to be Sitting Bull.
 
Hurry Maoi seems better than hurry Hermitage. The extra hammers are flexible and could help you building culture stuff anyway. It is like a two for one that way.

A big part of UN diplo victory is your final civics for favored civics bonus. Keep that in mind before choosing the merchantile/Free aspect. I am pretty sure Hannibal loves free market for example. In contrast SItting bull is environmental. Luckily Free Religion will actually help you in this game with Willhelm and Darius if I remeber right. Anyway eventually civics will have to optimized for votes and not commerce.

The second part is figuring out who your opponent will be and therefore who you can afford to piss off. Who is top dog in population? As important as getting people to like you is to get people to hate them. Ties go to the AI I believe. A good phony and balanced war is very risky but the easiest way to create the blocks you need if you have the techs needed for bribing.
 
Hurry Maoi seems better than hurry Hermitage. The extra hammers are flexible and could help you building culture stuff anyway. It is like a two for one that way.
Already played the next session. Hurried Hermitage, and the city makes 22 culture/turn (IIRC) now to hurry grabbing that seafood, but I suspect your way overall was better.
Ah... I ended up choosing mercantilism for two artists (1 free) in the city, but I might change it to FM soon, since mercantilism loses a lot of commerce on this map.
I thought: first grab the seafood, then the rest, I wonder if it was a good choice, I gain only 1% / turn which means I need about another 15 turns (IIRC) to get those tiles inside cultural borders...

Great game so far. Please take "I can't believe you're doing so well" as the compliment it's intended to be. :p
I tell you a secret: I was trusting my strategy, and I thought I had a chance, and since the skepticism was already enough, I couldn't let myself be on doubt too much.
However, if I'll manage to bring home this game, I'll be the first to say: "I can't believe it worked!" ;)

A big part of UN diplo victory is your final civics for favored civics bonus. Keep that in mind before choosing the merchantile/Free aspect. I am pretty sure Hannibal loves free market for example. In contrast SItting bull is environmental. Luckily Free Religion will actually help you in this game with Willhelm and Darius if I remeber right. Anyway eventually civics will have to optimized for votes and not commerce.

The second part is figuring out who your opponent will be and therefore who you can afford to piss off. Who is top dog in population? As important as getting people to like you is to get people to hate them. Ties go to the AI I believe. A good phony and balanced war is very risky but the easiest way to create the blocks you need if you have the techs needed for bribing.

Oh, I forgot the "You have shared your technological discoveries with us" bonus. For every 10 techs you give an AI, you get a +1 in relations. These techs can be either through tech trades or tech gifts. I've managed +3 a few times. +1 and +2 aren't too hard to reach if you trade aggressively and gift techs towards the end of the game.

You can get Darius and Willem to vote for you with free religion (and it'll remove religious negatives against the other leaders). I think Hannibal's favorite civic is free market so he shouldn't be hard to court. Sitting Bull is probably not worth courting as he's likely hated by others (so you risk picking up trading with worst enemy penalties). You can get both Peter and KK using bureaucracy. If you add on Nappy (representation), that should be enough votes to win. You just need your opponent to be Sitting Bull.

TMiT put together an excellent short guide to UN victory a while ago which might be useful to consult at this point.

Just in terms of vote-counting...
You need 60% of the votes.
Looking at how the land is broken up, I think your most likely opponent is Sitting Bull (but you might end up running against Willem). It'd be important to figure out which of them is going to be your opponent, so you don't waste time trying to win their votes.
If you lose Sitting Bull, Willem, and Pacal, it's going to be almost impossible to get enough votes. Ideally you'd earn the votes of 2 of those 3 (the 2 you aren't running against), plus several of the smaller civs' votes.
If Sitting Bull ends up your opponent, you're going to want to use espionage to switch his religion and/or civics so Pacal doesn't like him so much.

Wow! Thanks all! That's a lot of inputs to meditate on. As I said I played a bit more, and discovered (quite slowly since switching to mercantilism) scientific method, but Willem discovered physics already. I miss Oxford University now so much...

However, the hope is the next great scientist being able to bulb part of physics (4 turns IIRC, and after 3 GEs and just 1 GS, I'll get another great scientist (83% IIRC) next I guess...). Then it will be about Willem: if he beeline mass media, it will be very close, I have the production bonus of two GE ready for the UN, but he's discovering techs quite faster than I am atm.

Now, the important part: diplomacy. I linked the detailed session in my signature, however I add a couple of screen shots and the save here.

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From what I read from your comments and links above, bringing Peter to friendly (as I thought) was a good move, and I'm glad about it. The issue is of course about the opponent being undecided yet.

I'm thinking on getting votes from tech trades and tech gifts, but I wonder if I should start gifting now or wait a bit more, as I'm thinking atm to don't drop too much technologically wise.

I'm still thinking and pondering atm...

Cheers! :)
 
The bonus from gifts will decay over time, so I would wait. Also... you can use GS to bulb Radio and Electricity, but after that you'll want GA to help bulb Radio and Mass Media.

Oh, and I think I forgot to mention... I'm truly impressed by what you've managed here. The fact there are a lot of non-vassal AIs to worry about means diplo. victory is still going to be tough, but it's a huge sight better than what I would have managed with this game if I'd shadowed it from, say, 0 AD.
 
The bonus from gifts will decay over time, so I would wait. Also... you can use GS to bulb Radio and Electricity, but after that you'll want GA to help bulb Radio and Mass Media.
Good Point! :goodjob:
So run scientists up to electricity, then switch them to artists!
I'll better remember that!

Oh, and I think I forgot to mention... I'm truly impressed by what you've managed here. The fact there are a lot of non-vassal AIs to worry about means diplo. victory is still going to be tough, but it's a huge sight better than what I would have managed with this game if I'd shadowed it from, say, 0 AD.
Thanks! This is the beauty of this video-game, if you ask me! :D
You might play for years, but you can't tell for sure if something is doable or not without trying it!

And also, I appreciate that you never claimed that this is badly played. I mean, a fair opinion, and a constructive skepticism, something like: "I doubt this plan altogether might work, however, if you are going to play this way you might wanna know better about this feature/concept, which might help you", is always welcome! :goodjob:

So keep on being skeptical as much as you wish in future, as long as is to help me find a way to defeat those AIs! :D
(or at least get close to that goal ;))

I remember very well your help being critical in a previous chapter! :goodjob:

And as well I appreciated also the skeptical, but fair, constructive and helpful analysis, posted by other players in this and previous chapters threads.

Thanks for following and contributing in this series! :)

---

And, yes. Post number 700! :D
 
How is it that Ottoburg and Fisherhill both exist? From what I can tell, they are only 2 squares from each other!
 
*spits out his drink* -- you can have cities 2 away if no different land masses? That... that's been true for a while now I'm guessing, not a ninja patch last night or something?

I... I thought I knew this game. How many Island maps have I played and not realized this?
 
*spits out his drink* -- you can have cities 2 away if no different land masses? That... that's been true for a while now I'm guessing, not a ninja patch last night or something?

I... I thought I knew this game. How many Island maps have I played and not realized this?

I'm pretty sure it must have been a ninja patch - I, too, am shocked, stunned, amazed, flabbergasted, and other such sundry synonyms for surprised. I wonder why the game works that way?
 
Hey Yatta, sorry I haven't been on in a while -- been having a busy week. What a treat to come back and see this game in full swing, with the Aztecs still keeping their heads low, building up their modest little island empire and scheming to rule the world through shrewd diplomacy!

I never knew the thing about being able to have cities two tiles away if on different land masses. Always so much to learn with this game!
 
Grrrr, I am to late with the advice on Maoi. I am on the same line as Creedakota. Maoi gives you the much needed hammers there. Oh well, lets hope the hermitage does its job correctly. Start investing in the cheap culture stuff. Still it is amazing that you did not get one religion yet now did you?

One more thing you can consider. You could go into free speech to speed things up a bit to get that seafood. Your capitol is not building really exciting stuff and you get the most beakers from your scientist so the overall culture boost will help the others cities more then the bonus to your capitol if you ask me.
 
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