Immortal Minimalism, Chapter IV - Montezuma

[vranasm]

this really looks badly

yours obsession with Mids imo killed your game this time, but as always you can surprise us all...

I am affraid I even don't see how you even used that friggen thing since you didn't improved food and didn't grow into new happy cap and didn't run those scientists...

for 5 food capital it really looks badly.

Ah... I am just not in mood probably, am bitter and harsh... it's around midnight anyway.

I am really surprised you ignored the suggestion about the start (worker->WB->finish worker) which was over time kind of proved to be good opening.
Fishing this game at start was your only commerce for long time, without commerce there is no game.

GLH would be so much better and it costs 2.5x less hammers. You even had early game international overseas trade routes...

 

[yatta77]

I am really surprised you ignored the suggestion about the start (worker->WB->finish worker) which was over time kind of proved to be good opening.
Fishing this game at start was your only commerce for long time, without commerce there is no game.

GLH would be so much better and it costs 2.5x less hammers. You even had early game international overseas trade routes...

Good points! But now I ask you:
"till mass media with 6 cities?"
Because this is the deal.
Now 'mids might be a bad pick, I don't know. But I know they potentially give a tiny little chance to keep up in tech with 6 cities till mass media. The other wonder I don't know.

 

[ecuwins]

I too am curious as to why not a single food resource had been improved circa 25AD. Is that part of the whole exercise or something?

 

[vranasm]

Good points! But now I ask you:
"till mass media with 6 cities?"
Because this is the deal.
Now 'mids might be a bad pick, I don't know. But I know they potentially give a tiny little chance to keep up in tech with 6 cities till mass media. The other wonder I don't know.

well it's told that 6 effective cities are good enough target for renaissance breakout...
the problem is you don't want to break out...

another is that on higher levels the AI's get quicker the deeper in eras you go, so you need to slow them down (yours successive wars is one of the ways).

I never play for diplomacy except diplomation which I sometimes do...but usually don't ;-) domination on cavs is a bit quicker then waiting for UN.

 

[yatta77]

I too am curious as to why not a single food resource had been improved circa 25AD. Is that part of the whole exercise or something?

yatta's diplomatic bonus towards the forum:
+4 people know what irony is
This one was great!

 

[yatta77]

I never play for diplomacy except diplomation which I sometimes do...but usually don't ;-) domination on cavs is a bit quicker then waiting for UN.

We all know!
But it has be done tons of times by better players than I am.
What would I bring to the forum doing that worse then them?
Take like this:
- you win, next time you try to win on an higher level; or
- you win, next time you try to win earlier; or
- you win, next time you try to win with a better score; or
- you win, next time you try to win with less cities/less resources.
tell me what's the difference?
They are all challenges IMO.
Other ways, just play always Noble.
Just my silly opinion.

 

[coanda]

Interesting diplo. situation you have developing. The two AIs I'd expect to be strongest given what we know about them so far and their overall skill on water maps are Pacal and Willem... and each of them is isolated sitting in his own religion, while the rest of the world is starting to go Buddhist.

For reference... favorite civics:
Pacal II: Hereditary Rule
Kublai Khan: Bureaucracy
Willem van Oranje: Free Religion
Darius: Free Religion
Alexander: Vassalage
Sitting Bull: Environmentalism
Peter: Bureaucracy

Side note: I'm entertained by the fact that your Aztec empire apparently doesn't use wheeled vehicles - much like the actual Aztecs.

 

[Nina]

This is shaping up into a fascinating game, as always! I loved watching you nearly scrape out a cultural victory as Genghis, and I'm looking forward to seeing how far Monty here will get as he struggles to stay on everybody's good side and make the most out of his tiny little spit of land.

What about setting your sights on that bit of land with the ivory to the southeast?

How did you get Sitting Bull so friendly?

It tickles me that you name your cities the same way I do, by their resources and/or terrain. I can never remember what I had in mind for them if I leave them with their default names.

 

[yatta77]

Interesting diplo. situation you have developing. (...)

Thanks! Nice contribution!

Side note: I'm entertained by the fact that your Aztec empire apparently doesn't use wheeled vehicles - much like the actual Aztecs.

Ah ah... well, you did teach me something, I didn't know that.

This is shaping up into a fascinating game, as always! I loved watching you nearly scrape out a cultural victory as Genghis, and I'm looking forward to seeing how far Monty here will get as he struggles to stay on everybody's good side and make the most out of his tiny little spit of land.

Thanks! As always, bringing some enthusiasm in here!

What about setting your sights on that bit of land with the ivory to the southeast?

It would be good I guess, but a brown cultural border is already there (look the right side of the ivory tile bordering the black unexplored tile ).

How did you get Sitting Bull so friendly?

Conceded alphabet as tribute, open borders, years of peace, trading. IIRC.

It tickles me that you name your cities the same way I do, by their resources and/or terrain. I can never remember what I had in mind for them if I leave them with their default names.

Depends on civilizations for me. The Aztecs names are too much confusing to distinguish them.




---


I made clear since the beginning, and repeatedly explained, what this series was about.

And more I do, more we keep on arguing about it. No matter that I gave an answer to every question.

I never claimed anything, I never meant to teach anybody. And I don't like religion wars.

I asked many times if this thread was perceived as irritating by someone, and nobody showed up.

I got eventually annoyed about being continuously pushed to change my own game play style: I don't understand what makes people believe I will and I don't get all this drama about it.

I don't blame people for Rexing, but I'm personally not aiming to be Rexassimilated: if you ask me, personal silly opinion, Rexing is a mechanical limited approach, which confuses goals and means.

Well, to make it short, I've eventually lost my enthusiasm.

No, not about this game. About posting this series on a strategy forum, where it seems it doesn't belong.

If someone cares about the following of this game, just drop me a message (or PM).

Feel free to shadow this game and post about it, I'll avoid checking this thread before I finish my game.


My first ever BtS victory (yep, was posted on this forum):

Aug 11, 2007, emperor level, marathon speed, standard settings.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5804584&postcount=288

Sitting Bull, culture victory, 3 cities.


My first immortal level victory (yep, was posted on this forum):

May 02, 2011, immortal level, normal speed, standard settings, no huts, no events.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10453954&postcount=42

Frederick, culture victory, 4 cities.


My first ever Civ IV victory (not posted on this forum):

Late 2005 or early 2006 IIRC, emperor level, cultural, 3 cities.

 

[Nina]

Awww!

Well, I'll be disappointed if this series ends. I got the impression that people were enjoying it, and were reacting positively -- at least on this thread, I haven't seen much arguing or drama at all. Maybe there's a bit of a misunderstanding because of the difficulties communicating and understanding tone/intent in languages that are not one's native tongue? Or maybe I just missed something.

Anyway, my two cents is that this series seems to fit here just fine, and seems to be well received. However, I'm new here, so I dunno. And at any rate, it's only worth doing if you're having fun doing it, at least when it comes to games and pastimes

 

[yatta77]

Awww!

Well, I'll be disappointed if this series ends. I got the impression that people were enjoying it, and were reacting positively -- at least on this thread, I haven't seen much arguing or drama at all. Maybe there's a bit of a misunderstanding because of the difficulties communicating and understanding tone/intent in languages that are not one's native tongue? Or maybe I just missed something.

Anyway, my two cents is that this series seems to fit here just fine, and seems to be well received. However, I'm new here, so I dunno. And at any rate, it's only worth doing if you're having fun doing it, at least when it comes to games and pastimes

Well, it bothers me be called name like obsessed just because I don't Rex. Or being told that I have problems from people doesn't have good argument to confute what I say.
Irony is, he started the thread making compliment for the Augustus victory, which was even more single city oriented, don't care about the food, and where after the 'mids I researched IW and built ONLY barracks and troops!
Yep, not tile improvements, except for mines. So why that was a good game and this one sucks!?

Everybody can criticize, but being coherent an fair.

 

[ecuwins]

I believe that seeing how little one can get away with is a worthy exercise. It can provide insights that will be applicable in many different situations.

Also, haters gonna hate. They always do.

 

[huerfanista]

I believe that seeing how little one can get away with is a worth exercise. It can provide insights that will be applicable in many different situations.

Also, haters gonna hate. They always do.

I don't think Vranasm is a hater. People go thru mood swings in their life, ya know, and text is a very imprecise method of communication. Personally, I wouldn't dream of posting a series like this unless I had a very thick skin. Besides, some people (not talking about you, Vran, necessarily ) get obsessed with this game and actually become insulted when you don't play in the optimal (meaning "their way") fashion.

@yatta -

I think most of the responses have been humorous and positive, so please just relax a bit. There are a bunch of us who hope you can rouse your sense of humor and continue this series. It's fun, which is what games are supposed to be about.

 

[yatta77]

I don't think Vranasm is a hater. People go thru mood swings in their life, ya know, and text is a very imprecise method of communication. Personally, I wouldn't dream of posting a series like this unless I had a very thick skin. Besides, some people (not talking about you, Vran, necessarily ) get obsessed with this game and actually become insulted when you don't play in the optimal (meaning "their way") fashion.

@yatta -

I think most of the responses have been humorous and positive, so please just relax a bit. There are a bunch of us who hope you can rouse your sense of humor and continue this series. It's fun, which is what games are supposed to be about.

Everybody has weak points, I'm not excluded.

Mine is bad dealing with unfair and/or unnecessary and/or annoying and/or boring arguing: answering again and again the same questions irritates me.

Nothing personal with vranasm, actually is one of the nicest guys in here: he was just unlucky to bring out the wrong argument at the worst possible time.

Actually I mostly blame myself for starting this series in the strategy subforum: I understand that a series about a suboptimal approach might irritate most of the people, and I understand that it is not easy for people to point that out without blaming my attitude.

If this series will ever continue, which I'm quite doubtful atm, it will be in another subforum.

Sorry vranasm, and sorry all. I apologize.

 

[Gumbolt]

Sorry vranasm, and sorry all. I apologize.

Don't apologise. Minimalistic is your game and that is what you have done. Who even needs farming/mining to win on immortal level!!! (Now that is a game I would like to see you win.) You won a great game with the Romans last time. The series is far from a failure. You are out to test the limits of the game. People reading your thread should respect your rules and your style of play.

In terms of the game my main concern is Alex!! -3 on the diplomatic scale. Thankfully SB is his worst enemy but it is still a problem if he learns how to set up a fleet.

Do you have a strategy for keeping all the AI happy??
Gifting cities? gifting techs?? Adopting religions? Adopting favourite civics?? Open borders? trading resources??

Downsides are: Worst enemies, declaring war, refusing to help an AI and using someone elses religion. Getting each Ai to friendly is your main objective.

In terms of your empire open borders for a religion to spread or are you worried about losing to AP?

How to get Alex to friendly????? Solve that and your game is almost won.

 

[Grimith]

I downloaded the 425 AD save. Let's analyze where the OP is going rather than where the OP has been.

Spoiler :

The primary goal in this game is Diplomatic Victory through the United Nations. We know that the restrictions of the OP ensure Montezuma will never be eligible for this victory unless he builds the UN; thus, it is imperative we get to Mass Media first and build the UN before anyone else can. Now, although the AI suffers from having a lack of land to develop (making this map type a much better one for the OP's restrictions than, say, Inland Sea), it will still build more cities than Montezuma, have more wonders than Montezuma, and have more production bonuses than Montezuma. Furthermore, there are two AI on this map - Pacal and Willem - whom I've seen throw themselves with gusto into rapidly teching Radio and Mass Media for the modern wonders. Thus, I don't think the main problem right now is Alexander or avoiding a DOW; I think the main problem is securing the UN. The diplomatic relations won't even matter if Montezuma can't get a seat at the table.

So, how will we get there?

Spoiler :

Only Sitting Bull and Peter are lacking Literature, one of the potential trade chips a player can use along with Aesthetics to try and climb back to tech parity. Presumably, at least one of the AIs who have Literature are also going after Music to build The Sistine Chapel; while they won't trade that tech until the wonder is finished, we likely cannot make it to Music in time to get much value from it.

Spoiler :

If we concede that we can't get The Great Library or Sistine in time, then Literature or Music may not be of much use for us to self-tech. Instead, we could pursue Drama, hoping the AI neglects it (as I believe it often does). Our capital won't get another great person in time to bulb, say, Philosophy, so we can't rely on a trade chip there. Our Great Engineer can bulb Metal Casting, but only Sitting Bull and Peter are lacking it, so we will not gain much value by doing so. Despite having the Pyramids and running Representation, we're not currently able to run many Scientist specialists, so we're mostly relying on our commerce to propel our tech rate. Presuming our situation does not change relative to the other AI, we will not be the first to Mass Media. We won't even be close.

Is it reasonable to conclude we must now try for a Cultural Victory instead of winning the UN? If so, then we can change our priorities.

Spoiler :

Offhand, Pacal is plotting war.

Spoiler :

Likely, Pacal is targeting either Alexander or Kublai Khan, but it is possible Pacal will declare war on anyone but Peter (they haven't met). I don't think we should worry about a DOW - we need our hammers for other things, it's unlikely that Pacal will DOW on us, and, if he does, then that's probably "good game."

Continuing on-topic, if we now attempt to prepare for a Cultural Victory, then we can actually make use of our Great Engineer. While we could use him to rush-build TGL, a stronger play may be to research Music and use the GE to rush-build Sistine. This will serve two purposes: #1) Denying Sistine to a culture-pursuing AI like Pacal or Willem. #2) Making a Cultural Victory easier for us. Unfortunately, we lack religion in either Clamcorn or Dyelake, so we're going to have to hope auto-spread saves the day. Furthermore, assuming we only get three cities, we'll be limited to just one Cathedral per religion. Still, Sistine (and thus Music) would be of considerable use.

Speaking of culture, if we had the Espionage Points, then we could take advantage of Yekaterinburg's placement to steal some techs from Peter.

Anyway, I don't think this game is hopeless. Sure, the UN seems a bit out of reach, but it's possible we could secure a Cultural Victory before any of the AIs win Culture or Space. We might not be able to slow down the AI through self-DOW, but, hey, the situation could be worse. We could be Toku, and Peter could be Monty.

Now, briefly springboarding off-topic, regarding the OP's lack of desire to finish this game on the forum (or at least not in this section of the forum)... I think enough people have consistently proven their interest in the Immortal Minimalism series, especially after this query had been brought up in Immortal Minimalism, Chapter III - Augustus Caesar, to showcase why that shouldn't be true.

 

[Gumbolt]

I would think one of 3 Ai would beat us to music. It may also be the case one Ai may have paper. I think Machinery has also been teched already by 1-2 AI. Feudalism also appears to have gone.

I like the Ep idea on Russians. Downside is Peter is 120 in terms of weighting for espionage. Meaning he will prioritise it. A further downside to this is without a cout house or two the espionage points will be low. It may also cause upsets to the Russians who may well capture the spies anyway.

For now the best bet seems to be to find a tech 1-2 Ai need for trade bait. This will be tough really.

As for culture. major hurdle here is land and cities that could spread a religion. At present we lack a religion. He does have a good food heavy capital. A strong GP farm may well help out the tech situ if he could reach Edu first.

Yeah it won't be easy but I will love to see what he does.

 

[Grimith]

Unquestionably, one of the AI will get to Music before we do, and we certainly won't have a monopoly tech by the time we snag it. I suggested researching Music if we were pursuing culture, though, out of the hope of using the Great Engineer to speed-build The Sistine Chapel before someone obnoxious like Pacal or Willem built it. However, at the current tech rate, we would need over thirty turns to research Music. Perhaps a safer, more immediately beneficial choice would be to speed-build The Great Library. Considering the map type, it's possible no AI has even started TGL.

Willem definitely has Paper. He must have snagged it through the Theology path; he doesn't even have Code of Laws.

There are a few trade options available, but we don't have anything the AI wants, and not all of the AI are actually willing to trade. I suppose few of the AIs have Monotheism or Code of Laws, but what would we use? Drama? Bulb Metal Casting with the Great Engineer and hope Sitting Bull trades CoL? Not knowing the best answer isn't so much of a problem as not knowing a good one.

The more I consider it, the more I believe we should use the Great Engineer for TGL over Sistine. The additional beakers from two Rep Scientists will increase our tech rate by 50%.

Espionage against Peter without a Great Spy and only two non-Courthouse cities was wishful thinking on my part. We'd only be able to steal Sailing right now, and running the Espionage slider wouldn't do much for us. However, I think negative diplo penalties with Peter would be worth gaining techs.

I really hate to hope for luck-based events like religious auto-spread, but that appears to be part of what Montezuma needs to win this game.

 

[Gumbolt]

On a positive note the AI is probably restricted to the number of cities they can build now.

Also the fact that most Ai have most of the techs will make teching a lot of the techs much cheaper.

He could also settle the GE but TG Lib seems a nice option with rep. A few GS would not hurt Yatta game. I do hope he is still playing.

 

[coanda]

Hurrying GLib is the only practical use for the GE I see. Odds are good that Sistine will be gone before Music can be discovered; Metal Casting is worthless as trade-bait at this point, and there's no good way of picking it up before bulbing in time to make Machinery have good trade value.