Immortal Questions

Arvoreniad

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
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Hi all,

I'm a pretty average Immortal-level player (I win about a third of games), and I'm trying to increase my win rate. I like to play random leader/shuffle map, take the first start I get and make the best of it.

If I can expand to 6 or more cities and tech-trade, I can reliably Lib my way to cuirassiers or cannons, whip out an army, and build a winning position, but if I can't do this, I don't have many other strategies in my arsenal. There's a few key things I think I'm missing that I'd like to ask about:
  • I've read a number of games on this forum where players have rescued poor or isolated starts by pulling off a late cultural victory. I've seen plenty of guides on optimising a cultural win, but not so much on how to pull one out of a bad situation. How do you go about doing that?
  • The HA rush seems a good way to break out early, but I tend to end up getting them too late and bankrupting myself when I try it. Would someone be able to advise or point me to a good guide on the subject?
  • Can axe rushes be effective on Immortal?
  • If you've missed the window for an early rush, what are the best ways to break out from 3-5 cities in the classical/medieval eras?
Any advice will be much appreciated. Thanks!
 
For HAs, some points i usually folow:
* Settling only cities that contribute towards my rush, ~3 total cities average i would say.
High food cities are good for whipping, many forests are also nice spots.
Bad spot examples: calendar resis, jungle gems, Bananas, 1 dry rice.

* Library in Cap can be very good (writing also useful for trade routes, open borders for scouting, maths req. for better chops).
Can use 2 scientists if not much commerce around.

* Currency fixes most problems, after basic techs + writing + HBR it's often good going for maths then Currency.

* Pottery speeds up writing a bit, and can be very good getting before.
Granaries help with whipping, river cottages are very useful even for rush plans.

* Whip, chop and overall get a nice starting army out quickly when you got HBR. Do not worry about stacking whip anger much or just using all resis your cities can offer at this point, your goal is taking new cities :)

Axe rush can work on Imm, esp. with aggressive leaders.
Pretty much same rule here, do not delay. Chops can be better than improving tiles, stacked whip anger is better than slower army.
 
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Thanks Fippy, I tried as you suggested and had very good results. Teching writing and running 2 scientists made all the difference. I used the resulting GS to bulb Math, which I'm not sure was optimal play, but combined with HBR it allowed me to trade for the other classical techs and avoid an economic crash.
 
I tried cultural on the Cathy isolated map posted here a few weeks ago. (The hard thing here was not the land which was mediocre in the actual city spots except for the capital but decent in resources and enough space for 10+ cities, but the non-existent synergy with Cathy's traits (both almost useless in isolation) and the situation and the bad combination of the other civs, 2-3 fast techers and 2 expansionists.)
Despite also being rather average on immortal I probably would have probably pulled cultural Cathy off (I managed a space race win with Pacal on an isolated start but Pacal has good traits for isolation) but after contact the world decided that I was an infidel, ruined my intercontinental trade routes and declared war twice. Stupid as they are they completely botched the first attempt because only Joao had intercontinental ships and I killed his small fleet easily. The second time they came from two sides, including the overall leading Persia and I quit because I did not have enough of navy/army to defend three attackers from two sides and even if I had replayed a few dozen turns and maybe been able to beat this wave back I did not see how I could keep this for another 50+ rounds. But it would certainly have been possible if I was better at diplomacy or not ended up on the wrong side of the AP (and all the rest of the world in line with AP resident).

I usually also play random but reject some maps (plains cow or otherwise completely sucky starts) and I may abandon some games fairly early because of horrible synergy - it seems almost a rule that if I play the mongols, I don't have horses, if I play the Inca, I am isolated or the next neighbor is 15 squares away (I never have had the chance for a Quechua rush yet).

I think cultural is somewhat leader and resource dependent (marbly and two grains or good trade options). Mainly you have to be good at diplo, if this is the case the rest of the terrain does not matter because you could build crap cities just for getting the temples. With Gandhi, one of the Egyptians, Louis, Pericles or other good cultural leaders you can probably pull it off on pretty poor maps (a decent island in isolation is great for cultural). I did it with Gandhi on a bloody island without a single grain resource (but it was not fun, games like this show how staggeringly imbalanced (much harder/easier than one might expect) some things get on certain maps). It seems that Spiritual really is a key trait here because one can frequently change between quick whips for the necessary buildings and caste phases for running artists.
 
Fippy as ever offers excellent advice. It's suprising how much a library and writing can speed up HBR.

I think bulbing maths is very situational. Great if you are philosophical. Albeit not so great otherwise. Pends on your overall strategy. The bigger chops can be really nice but an academy might of been better pending on the start. Also depending on any bulbing strategy. Academy early on can easily repay 400-500 beakers. The AI on immortal don't tech that fast.

Sometimes if you are lucky the Ai you attack will have alphabet. Then warfare with HA gets more interesting as you can take techs for peace.
 
Wouldn't alphabet -> currency be preferable if one wants to get techs for peace or generally backfill? One frequent piece of advice I still find controversial is going for aesthetics instead of alphabet. If one's own tech pace is decent and one is not in contact with at least 4 civs this seems to me doubtful even on immortal, certainly on everything below. Of course it can work but more often than not one will sit on Aesthetics for a while because nobody has alpha. Sure the converse problem is having alpha as the only thing the others do NOT have and not being able to keep it for a while as an advantage. What is the wisdom on trading alpha supposing one has the monopole? Should one trade it away to speed up the general tech pace or try to keep the advantage?
The worst is semi-isolation with only one partner who often will not trade, alpha is almost useless than...
 
I always go Alphabet -> Currency if I think I have a good enough start to make it there first (quite a bit of the time). Aesthetics is very strong however when you don't make it first to Alphabet (as in a HA rush). I haven't tried not trading Alpha, so I can't really argue against that, but I have always found it very helpful for backfilling ancient and early classical techs.

I've never had much success getting techs from the AI for peace - is there a technique to it?
 
@ Kalikrates - Not sure if you meant that to go in this thread??

I don't agree on culture. You can still play a war based game to gain early on and control your continent. Then play the cultural game. If you have 20 cities in your empire you only need 9-10 working cultural buildings. You can still focus some cities on defences. Many SGOTM games mix war and culture to great effect.

Diplomacy is easier if you avoid adopting a religion. Or adopt the religion most use. Then its a matter of getting open border bonuses +2, resources +2, fair trades +4, Shared religions+1-5, shared favourite civics and shared wars. You can easily get +5-6 on most AI. Just need to avoid adopting religions where it does more damage to diplomacy. Also trading with worst enemies.

Spiritual is a nice trait but you can still swap civics in a golden age with no turns lost on other traits. I think most players use golden ages to max out great people over 8-12 turns. I don't like continually switching civics. If you can get 3 decent commerce cities culture mixed with wonders/cathedrals and other civics should not be too demanding if you plan ahead.

Alphabet?? Pends on the game. Aesthetics is a great trading chip as the Ai rarely go for it. It's also on the music beeline. Pends how you play your games. Early alphabet is great for trading techs. Alphabet often lets you back fill on 8-9 techs on immortal. (Assuming you didn't make the mistake of teching all the basic techs first.) If you beeline Alphabet early on this can be very rewarding. Assuming you are not isolated or alone with 1 AI. Of course doing this may mean sacrificing an HA rush. Alphabet won't secure you land.

Having no horse or a poor seed on a save is probably more unlucky or poor scouting. Hard to know without seeing the maps.

The great thing about Civ 4 is every game is different and every map requires a level of thought about how to play it.

Key to getting techs from peace is war success. If you capture their capital and all but 1 city they will most likely offer you pretty much all their techs for peace early on. Or at least 1 big tech. Sometimes if they won't offer you the tech you want you can put a few beakers into the tech. Normally does the trick for me.
 
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@Gumbolt
I mentioned isolated Cathy in the other thread because I had the general impression that the OP wanted to learn more about playing better and/or without a standard strategy like lib race -> cuirassier -> domination (or whatever one pleases from a dominant position achieved by it) and/or on poor map/leader combinations.

I then mentioned culture wins because this is sometime what I try in isolation because it is usually easier than space race and intercontinental invasions are a logistical nightmare for me. And it is again something different from cuirassier domination. Of course there are situations with extended war first, culture later. But if one has 20 cities on a standard size map at standard speed one is about halfway to a domination victory, I'd say. It seems either like stopping halfway to domination or way too much trouble for a cultural win.
As for diplomacy, there was no chance in that Cathy game. I needed a religion for cultural victory and it was bad luck that the rest of the world was almost united behind the AP. But it was crazy because I had decent relations with most of them and the one egging them on (I think Capac) never even bothered so send a ship. Of course my power was also too low, I had counted too long on isolation and the AI sucks at invasions but it was a fairly close distance and too much coast to patrol. I had never experienced anything like this in a gam before, the worst I had had from AP was being forced into embargos or forced to peace, so it caught me really unaware.

@Arvoreniad
As for techs for peace, does only the "victim" need alpha or both? There are maybe some monopol techs the AI will never trade. But otherwise if one is dominant in a war they will give techs for peace/ceasefire. I don't know if there is a special "technique" needed, simply war dominance.

The alpha vs. aesthetics is a pet peeve of mine because I have seen the recommendation to go for aesthetics first when I was playing emperor or maybe even monarch and on those levels it is almost always wrong because the AI is far too late for alpha. And on immortal I think it should be controversial enough not to be recommended as a preferred strategy.
 
@Kallikrates - I'd agree with you there on Aesthetics, I rarely need it on immortal and on any levels below it would be less useful still.

Only one civ needs Alpha for tech trading. I'll just have to experiment then and see what techs I can get.

I'd somehow missed your earlier post about the Cathy game. That's definitely the sort of thing I'm thinking about, winning culture from poor or isolated starts. How early do you need to make the decision to go culture in order to pull it off from that sort of position?
 
To clarify: My beef with aesthetics is ONLY the general recommendation I have often seen to research it as "trade bait" before alpha. This might be generally good on Deity and work reasonably well on Pangaea Immortal if one has Mansa and Willem on the map or so but I think it is bad advice below Immortal and doubtful on Immortal as a general recommendation. And of course in isolation one can postpone alpha for a long time.

The Cathy isolation game is discussed here, including some games played until earlyish invasion of neighbors:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/immortal-isolation-desperation.599018/

I am not sure when one has to decide for culture. I am not experienced enough and never got an really early culture win (say before 19th century), probably because I decided too late or it simply took me too long to get all the multiplier buildings. A nontrivial thing in isolation is to get two religions because you need them for the culture multiplier buildings. The three early religions are usually gone too early, so ideally one will be first to both CoL and Philosophy as Caste and pacifism are essential anyway. So it might be good to oracle CoL (unless one has such a strong start that one can directly research it and try to oracle a later tech). For a possible third religion, I tend to hope for some spread after contact but if one gets a priest from the oracle early on, one can bulb Theology.
Then you go on the lib race for the doubled culture of free speech; no delaying lib to get something more expensive (also risky in isolation when one does not know where the others are in tech), nationalism seems an easy choice to liberate for the taj and hermitage.
The pyramids are useful, I think, if one has stone or is IND because they make a specialist economy so much better. Other nice earlyish wonders are the parthenon and maybe the Mausoleum, so marble is really extremely useful, almost necessary, also for Michelangelo's chapel. Without access to marble I'd probably not even consider cultural. I think I got some of these wonders and the two religions without too much trouble on that Cathy map (because stone and marble are there). But I was toast after the whole world could be brought into war (and trade embargo) against me by the AP resident despite being cautious or pleased. Probably more a failure in diplo than in building enough muskets (or whatever) to fall not too far behind in power.
There probably is another culture strategy with cottages and switching all commerce to culture, I tend to prefer specialists (because the culture slider is global but specialists local) but it is probably dependent on traits and map. One should probably not waste a good bureau cap but one will switch to liberalism ASAP anyway for doubling culture and in isolation double seafood+ another food source (or even more in a cap) are not infrequent.

With "late cultural" people probably mean playing first more aggressively and relying on late game multiplier buildings/wonders like broadway. I think that from an isolated start one should be earlier (and early astronomy bulb and medieval or cuirassier invasion would be to the detriment of all those culture techs and builds one needs), so these late wonders will not really matter any more, although one might be late enough to build one of them.

For isolation training there is also the "lonely hearts club" series, having both nice and rather nasty maps (a few are not complete isolation, that is luckily placed cities with some border pops one can get into contact before optics).
 
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Talking about going for a Cultural Victory late, the combination of Traditional Culture and Espionage Assisted Culture is probably best. The idea is to build up Culture in three cities using Traditional Culture, either build culture buildings, wonders, generate Great Works using GAs. Pick a nearby (ideally a weak) Civ and assign all your Espionage to it, and use all your Great Spies to infiltrate him. Build dozens of Spies and place them in these three cities. Give these three culture cities to the AI with all your espionage on him, and end turn (it takes one turn for the Inject Culture mission to become available). Perform the Inject Culture mission, which adds 5% of all city culture into each of the three cities. Stop when the culture to be injected by the spy mission is well over 2500 (normal game speed; 5% of 50,000); your city, still in enemy hands, now has Legendary Culture. When all three cities reach this point, declare war on Civ "borrowing them" and capture all three cities, end turn and win a Cultural Victory.

Ideally, these three cities will be 3 plots from your Capital. This reduces the distance espionage penalty. As you add culture (traditional or via espionage) to the target city, your City Culture espionage discount will greatly increase. It also ensures that the Inject Culture mission is available, since you must have some plot culture from another city you own in the city center of the target city. Before giving the cities away, it is best to spread your State Religion in them; if the target Civ does have the same State Religion, you will get a 15% espionage discount; if you own the Holy City of your State Religion, you will always get a 25% espionage discount. The Stationary Spy discount can be 10-50%, which is 10% times the number of turns the spy fortified to a maximum of 5 turns; for small Culture Injection missions, making the Spy wait doesn't save much espionage, so its usually best to perform the mission immediately; for larger Culture Injection missions, it is best to wait the full 5 turns of spy fortification for the maximum Stationary Spy discount. If possible, Opening Borders with the target Civ may get you the 20% Trade Route espionage discount, plus you always get reduced Spy compromises. By creating and using huge amounts of Espionage, you will also get a high (30-40%) Espionage Point Spending espionage discount too.

If Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory is "not your cup of tea", you should at least use Espionage to steal Technologies, steal Wealth (Gold), sabotage buildings or projects, or just cause all sorts of mischief for the AI Civs (destroy improvements/roads/railroads, poision water supplies, etc.).

Using espionage in Currassier Rush is fairly common. Just station spies on hill cities or high culture cities. On the turn the Currassier stack can attack a city, the Spy/Spies in the city perform the Support City Revolt espionage mission. Just be sure to apply enough espionage to the target Civ at least a turn in advance of the attack.

Using Espionage effectively can improve your game immensely. It can also be great fun too!
 
Thanks for that summary, I've seen espionage wins before but I never really understood how to do it. What's the ballpark for how many EPs/Great Spies you need to pull it off?

In general must admit I hadn't thought of espionage as an area of improvement, but in truth I rarely make good use of it. Fomenting city revolts during cuir rushes is a use I'm aware of, but something I now realise I always forget to do. That should help me a bit in future.

The thing I'm most unsure about with espionage as a whole is at what times it's worthwhile. I'm very conscious that any slider values/specialists are taking away from your BPT/GPP. In what sort of situations does espionage have a net benefit compared to the alternatives?
 
Sorry, but this seems such a crazy exploit (however brilliantly conceived) completely against the idea of a cultural victory, doesn't it? Should not a lot of culture be destroyed when a city changes hands? Or was this changed in BtS?
I also don't get why one would not directly generate culture instead of converting espionage points to culture. (Even if one gets a Great spy one could use him for a golden age to generate more great artists.)
If one can inject more culture by espionage there seems something severely broken in the mechanism because the culture cities have all those multipliers therefore should generate far more culture than the conversion of espionage points. I never mastered espionage beyond the merest basics but I am really puzzled that this should work...

I know that I am in the minority here but as abstract as many game concepts may be I still tend to think of it as a kind of "simulation" so I really abhor some stuff that does not make any sense at all under such a perspective.
 
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@Kallikrates

Many players agree with you that Espionage should not be used to win a Cultural Victory (Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory).

Probably more players have no problem with it. For example, the CFC Civ IV GOTM competitions allow the use of espionage in winning a Cultural Victory. The CFC Civ IV HoF also allows it, but they make a distinction between a Traditional Cultural Victory that uses no Espionage missions, and an Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory, which they shortened to Espionage Victory to distinguish it from the traditional Cultural Victory.

So there are two variants of a Cultural Victory, Traditional Cultural Victory and Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory. It is similar to the earlier variant of the Diplomatic Victory using The Apostolic Palace, called within the game as a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory. I this case, both the GOTM and HoF shortened the name to Religious Victory. The only real difference between the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory is the Civ IV BtS game actually refers to the full name Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory in game as one approaches this victory, whereas Civ IV BtS never mentioned the Cultural Victory variant using Espionage at all. However, when the game ends in Civ IV BtS, both the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory and The United Nations Diplomatic Victory are identified as simply a "Diplomatic Victory". Civ IV BtS never makes a distinction between a Cultural Victory with or without espionage use; both variants are identified throughout the game as "Cultural Victory".

There can be no doubt that the designers knew that the Inject Culture mission (+5% Total Culture increase per mission) could greatly speed up a Cultural Victory. One could be half way to Legendary Culture and need just 14-15 successful Inject Culture missions to reach Legendary Culture in one turn, assuming one has already accumulated the Espionage Points needed by those missions.

There is some controversy about the number and size of the Espionage Discounts that make Espionage to Culture conversion so efficient. We may never know whether Civ 4 BtS designers intended to make Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory so much more quicker than Traditional Cultural Victory. However, one need only point out that they created Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory as a much quicker variant of Diplomatic Victory. So, why did they add an Inject Culture mission? To help win Cultural Wars, useful in peaceful Domination Victories, or to speed up Cultural Victories? No one can say with abosolute certainty, but I'm sure they were well aware of both possibilities. Remember that their goals were to implement a fun and profitable game (not necessarily a fair gaming engine that could be used for competitive play).
 
Another question - in a continents game with only one or two AI pre-Optics, is it generally better to take advantage of a rush opportunity (i.e. eliminating one in the early game and benefitting from their land), or leave them alive as tech-trading partners?
 
If the player has just one AI Civ on his continent, it depends on the map and the Leader of that AI Civ whether the player should use him as a trading partner or capture or raze all his cities. It also greatly depends on difficulty level; keep the AI Leader as a trading partner only on higher difficulty levels (around Emporer and above, especially Immortal and Deity); the AI Civs tech too slowly to be useful as trading partners on lower difficulty levels.

If that AI Leader is Mansa Musa, the player should keep him as a trading partner, since he needs to only be Cautious or better to be willing to trade technologies. He will also trade the maximum number of techs before he refuses, because the player is becoming too advanced. He also gives +1 Diplomancy for each five technologies traded to him by the player, ignoring the few technology trades he forgets; this helps to keep him Friendly.

If the AI Civ is one that can be brought up to Friendly Diplomatic state rather quickly, he may be a good trading partner, assuming he is often a tech leader in games. Look at his favourite civic; if it can be unlocked early enough and it is a civic the player wants to use until at least Astronomy, sharing this civic with him will help get the player to Friendly status quite quickly. Shared state religion is another great way to get to Friendly status quickly, especially when the AI leader is a religious zealot; The player must either have the AI's state religion in one of his cities, or he must spread his own Religion to the AI and make it the dominant religion in the AI leader's empire such that he will convert to it. It is assumed that the player will also achieve 60 turns of peace (+1), 25/50 turns of Open Borders (+1/+2), 50/100 resource turns trading to AI (+1/+2) and gifting/trading 5/7/10/20 technologies (+1 for each set of technologies whose numbers 5/7/10/20 depends on the AI leader (forget about using this tactic with AI leaders that require 20 technologies for +1 diplomacy) Shared war (+1 per 8 turns; war waits for Astronomy) and Defensive Pacts (+1 per 10 turns; unlocked by Military Tradition) come too late.

If the AI leader is a generally slow techer or there is no quick way to become Friendly with him and he is not Mansa Musa, the player should capture or raze all his cities, because he will not be a worthwhile technology trading partner.

If the player's land is poor and the AI leader's land is good, the player should capture the AI's good cities and raze the rest, even if the AI leader is Mansa Musa, because there is no reason to have a technology trading partner, if the player can not keep up in technology enough to make technology trades, including bulbing to gain technology parity, assuming the player and AI leader follow different tech paths, making technology trading mutually beneficial. An alternative is allow the AI leader to tech fast and steal his technologies via a gift city three plots from the player's capital; completing The Great Wall can provide an early Great Spy which should infiltrate the AI leader, allowing huge numbers of early technology steals without using the espionage slider.

If the land for the player and AI leader is either equally good or maybe even equally bad, accept the AI leader as a trading partner, assuming he techs well and can be made Friendly quickly.
 
If the player has two AI leaders on his continent, the player can eliminate the AI leader that is less suitable as a technology trading partner using information from my previous post. The player might allow both to live, but land is power, so grab it from the least useful AI leader. The player might get -1 diplomacy from DoW'ing my friend versus his chosen technology trading parnter, but a -1 diplomacy penalty can be easily overcome.
 
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