Shadow Game - Is this just a map *I* can not beat?

[gavenkoa]

I think Indians and Ethiopians have spread religion too much

I did a mistake by planting 2 missionaries for each, because I didn't know game mechanic nor reason about victory conditions (I was upset with inability to spread religion, so I wasted them on other AIs).

In fact Indians spread religion quite well, IDK if they did it via self-built missionaries (Free Religion might incentivize such behavior??) or via random spread...

Ideally you want the AI with 1 city that has your religion or one AI outside your religion who can win you the votes.

I have monopoly for Astro and enough of islands for 2 new independent nations. I'm not experienced on pleasing late game AIs, so I think about granting independence to loyal voters... Do you think it is an option?

 

[AcaMetis]

In fact Indians spread religion quite well, IDK if they did it via self-built missionaries (Free Religion might incentivize such behavior??) or via random spread...

AIs going for a cultural victory are heavily incentivised to spread religion to their cities, since that lets them build more cathedrals. Mind you, literally Gandhi doesn't really need a special reason to spread religions to all of his his cities. That's just kinda what he does be default.

 

[gavenkoa]

How do you find out religion spread over AIs land?

Guessing via F8 "Members" advisor? Or my scouting with some unit? Or by buying World Map and counting cities yourself?

I know about a hack to see religion spread in a convenient table form via a nation dropdown in Religion advisor in WorldBuilder.

 

[Gumbolt]

You can see their votes on the members page which tell you the chance of winning AP. Getting Monty into your religion was probably most important. Always leave the religion spreading AI to last.

Setting up these island cities seems a lot of work.Sometimes AP does not always work especially if you do not find the AI till late in the game.

 

[Henrik75]

Turn 130.

Spoiler :

Cottage Dreamland. One of my best Astro dates yet.
Should be able to expand up to 12 cities and then just smash them with tanks and planes Skip the textbook cannon era

Zara looking pretty scary. Especially if he wipes out monty. But good luck keeping up with Chadnibal in tech

 

[Build2Much]

This thread has taken new directions - had to catch up. On AP:

Spoiler :

I never went hard after it on this map, never founded my own religion and built it myself, but I have had the AP religion come over right after Astro on my current attempt. I spread it around aggressively and took ownership of the AP. I’m not really close to winning the diplo victory vote, even with expanding to almost all the islands - I have 19 cities running State Property in 1590AD. I better win the race to tanks though, Zara has vassaled everyone on the island but Cyrus, which has not usually been the case. Gandhi just broke free, but I don’t really have a military to attack him right now, so I expect he will just vassal again before I can do anything

 

[Build2Much]

@Henrik75 or others who said this about eventual tech path

Spoiler :

clearly I also got good Astro dates if you are happy with yours. What signals to you, despite having a good date and an advantage on the seas for a long time at that point, that going all the way to tanks is the winning move at that point of the game? I think/know it is the right move now, but I assumed the first few times I played this that I should “follow the textbook” because of my good Astro date

Thanks!

 

[Henrik75]

@Build2Much

Spoiler :

with 12 good cities with food + islands for potentially more, you can easily get 15 cities. with financial and a decent job at managing your economy you should be able to out tech any immortal AI with that. If you are the first to levees -> Factories you're essentially unstoppable

You can keep gaining momentum with building things like cothon, early oxford ,observatories and pull further and further ahead of those idiots... Plenty of health resources, so as long as you get some trades for happiness you'll be fine. Stay out of religion and maintain good diplo.

 

[gavenkoa]

@Henrik75 Why did you avoid to settle Utica & Hadrumetum on seashore? Cothon provides +1 trade route... It is like +5gpt after Astro...

At size 9 they still have land mass to work cottages. Only Hadrumetum will lack 1 flood plains from 1-ring but there are forests to chop something cultural...

 

[sampsa]

@Henrik75 Why did you avoid to settle Utica & Hadrumetum on seashore? Cothon provides +1 trade route... It is like +5gpt after Astro...

At size 9 they still have land mass to work cottages. Only Hadrumetum will lack 1 flood plains from 1-ring but there are forests to chop something cultural...

Short term gain vs long term gain.

 

[Henrik75]

You could put Utica 1 south, wouldnt hurt. you get the cothon but you also get less river tiles.
The other city is hurt badly without having 2nd flood plain. forces you to either farm a flood plain or go monument early and delay library.

 

[Build2Much]

I definitely have an aversion to settling 1 tile off the coast, magnified when it is a financial leader with a coast/water based UB.

Clearly players better than me do not share my concerns.

 

[Build2Much]

You could put Utica 1 south, wouldnt hurt. you get the cothon but you also get less river tiles.
The other city is hurt badly without having 2nd flood plain. forces you to either farm a flood plain or go monument early and delay library.

Either every or almost every “better” player has put the eastern river city (your “other” city example) off the coast. I would have never even considered it because it “only” took a monument to pop the 2nd flood plain.

Dealing with emancipation in this game as early as 1400AD has been a harsh reminder that I don’t want to be dealing with all size 14 cities that I can’t keep happy.

 

[sampsa]

I definitely have an aversion to settling 1 tile off the coast, magnified when it is a financial leader with a coast/water based UB.

Clearly players better than me do not share my concerns.

For me it's a relatively small thing being 1 off the coast. Lighthoused coast (even FIN) is mediocre anyway and a lighthouse costs 60... True, a slightly bigger deal here than normally due to cothon, but in general short term gains are more important.

Either every or almost every “better” player has put the eastern river city (your “other” city example) off the coast. I would have never even considered it because it “only” took a monument to pop the 2nd flood plain.

But the border pop gets the 2nd fp what at least 20T later, assuming granary first (delaying granary makes it even worse). By that time you are down at least 12 (=roughly one size i.e. 3pt) and it snowballs. It's better to just have all the strong tiles on the 1st ring when possible.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Dealing with emancipation in this game as early as 1400AD has been a harsh reminder that I don’t want to be dealing with all size 14 cities that I can’t keep happy.

With SP, factories and plants you do not need big cities. All they need to do is collectively work all workshops/watermills.

In this scenario health usually caps your cities at about the same size as emancipation will anyway.

 

[Build2Much]

@sampsa the city placement stuff I’ve done for years and gotten away with at lower levels definitely starts to make a difference at this level, and particularly in this map where the AI is capable of keeping up with my tech pace. I absolutely understand now why everyone chooses the tile 1 N of where I choose, but I guess I just needed to see it 20 times to sink in

@a pen-dragon that’s exactly what I’m talking about - I find myself chasing health and happiness buildings and having to use the slider for culture happiness for my cities that have actually gotten “too big”, which is all a waste of time at that point in the game - especially if I want factories and coal plants. Again, on lower levels wouldn’t even come into play, but for me and my bad habits this map is the perfect storm…and so frustrating!

 

[a pen-dragon]

I find myself chasing health and happiness buildings and having to use the slider for culture happiness for my cities that have actually gotten “too big”

IMHO, at this point it is ok to let a city shrink if it has gotten too big. Maybe not a cottaged oxford capital or the IW, NE cities, but basically anything else. Then again a NE city does not need industrialization. Edit: an oxford capital does not strictly need industrialization either.

If there is space consider building a new city to take over some tiles and let your old cities shrink a bit. As long as you are working the improvements (i.e. the flat land tiles), all is fine.

 

[Build2Much]

I think I’m going to start a fresh game with this map, I have a great person question I didn’t find the answer to, and I assume I should already know this at this level.

If I were to have 2 scientists running in 3 different cities all starting on the same turn, it appears 51 turns later you can have 3 GS. It is 100% possible to do this with this start (whether you should do it is obviously another matter, but I’m curious what it would look like).

Question #1 - how does the game determine which order the scientists come out in? In my example, I would want Carthage 1st, then Utica (city2), then city 3 (we will assume my 3rd settled city). I would want to turn off the scientists in Carthage (I think?) after the first one was born. Might turn them off in Utica after that one was born as well.

Question #2 - if I did this, I would be trying to get scientist 3 out right around when I would be bulbing Astro. If timing will work, what is the best use for scientist 1? My options would likely be - academy (in capital or in a city still running scientists?), settle for immediate beakers/turn, hold to bulb Philosophy or Education. I don’t think bulbing Optics would be enough value and would require a tech detour through Alphabet.

Thanks!

 

[a pen-dragon]

Answer #1: AFAIK the order is determined by the order you acquired your cities in or the age of the cities. Either case will be identical in this scenario. BUG (I think? BUFFY shows it.) will show the next great person to be born, allowing you to get feedback from the UI for setting the order.

Answer #2: As there is a lot to be researched, you are financial and have a great cottage capital, the first GS should be used for an academy. Obviously the academy should go into your capital.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Turn 130.

Spoiler :

Cottage Dreamland. One of my best Astro dates yet.
Should be able to expand up to 12 cities and then just smash them with tanks and planes Skip the textbook cannon era

View attachment 719872

Zara looking pretty scary. Especially if he wipes out monty. But good luck keeping up with Chadnibal in tech
View attachment 719873

You proposed "how", but not "why".

Why shouldn't we just do everything exactly textbook on this map? Like

Spoiler :

liberalism into nationalism and Taj-Mahal, then cannons or curaissers

? Especially since

Spoiler :

they are all in the same religion. Slow them down or they will speed up.

I am also not sure why you

Spoiler :

left one forest tile near Carthage instead of two. You don't get health bonuses.