Importance of white representation in fiction

It's implicit everywhere that Gandalf is white, if only because nobody notice his skin colour while people NOT white are precisely noticed because they are unusual. I certainly don't believe anyone missed or didn't get that point.

Honest question - Why would Gandalf being black or east Asian be unusual, based on what we know of Middle Earth?

I am always open to being convinced that I am wrong (about this or anything), but I would need more information on what exactly you mean.
 
Honest question - Why would Gandalf being black or east Asian be unusual, based on what we know of Middle Earth?

I am always open to being convinced that I am wrong (about this or anything), but I would need more information on what exactly you mean.

Black and Asian races live in the far south and east of Middle Earth respectively so in North Western ME black and Asian people would've been unusual. Still, Gandalf had travelled widely in ME, certainly beyond the corner in which the LotR is set without any apparent problems.
 
It's implicit everywhere that Gandalf is white, if only because nobody notice his skin colour while people NOT white are precisely noticed because they are unusual. I certainly don't believe anyone missed or didn't get that point.

So it is your bias: His skin color isn't mentioned, so he must be white.
 
This argument is very thin and presupposes that characters in a fantasy world place the same importance as you on difference in skin colour.
So it is your bias: His skin color isn't mentioned, so he must be white.
You both manage to quote two sentences, and literally ignore three quarters and the main point of said quote. It's not even playing dumb, it's making a contest about it.

Not going to bother answering to you anymore, you don't even try to pretend at this point.

Honest question - Why would Gandalf being black or east Asian be unusual, based on what we know of Middle Earth?
For the same reasons you saw few Chinese people in Europe during the middle-age. That's been already covered in the thread.

Again, it seems the very concept of "settings" is flying completely over the head of people here, but only in a very selective way. I'm pretty sure that if I say Gandalf wearing sneakers feels off and is a costume error, people would get it immediately and wouldn't try to rationalize around it by claiming that Tolkien didn't explicitely described his footwear and that it's not technically impossible that sneaker-looking attire was craftable.
But point that Gandalf being played by Samuel Lee Jackson would feel off, and suddenly it's "finding pretext" time.
 
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You both manage to quote two sentences, and literally ignore three quarters and the main point of said quote. It's not even playing dumb, it's making a contest about it.


For the same reasons you saw few Chinese people in Europe during the middle-age. That's been already covered in the thread.

Again, it seems the very concept of "settings" is flying completely over the head of people here, but only in a very selective way. I'm pretty sure that if I say Gandalf wearing sneakers feels off and is a costume, people wouldn't try to rationalize around it by claiming that Tolkien never didn't explicitely described his footwear and that it's not technically impossible that sneaker-looking attire was craftable.
But point that Gandalf being played by Samuel Lee Jackson would feel off, and suddenly it's "finding pretext" time.

You're advocating for an empty, phony authenticity in a fictional setting.

My tangent upthread touched on unexamined choices in casting. I don't think you've actually examined why white Gandalf feels so right and obvious and natural to you.
 
You both manage to quote two sentences, and literally ignore three quarters and the main point of said quote. It's not even playing dumb, it's making a contest about it.

What is the point about arguing about your bias? You talk about "explicit descriptions", but selectively focus on skin color, for which there is no explicit description while ignoring the explicit descriptions from which there are significant deviations in the movies. Why is it okay to change hair color and eye color, but not skin color?
 
You're advocating for an empty, phony authenticity in a fictional setting.
Speaking of phony and empty, that's exactly what this idiotic argument is. It's not because a work is fictional it can't have a feeling of authenticity, especially if it's deliberately drawing from existing settings (like western Middle-Earth, as said several time, being a stand-in for Western Europe). That's the entire concept of "immersion", which is the entire basis of fiction. You're basically saying that fiction doesn't exist.

You clowns are ready to pretend that immersion and cultural references don't exist and have no importance in a fictional work just so you can shoehorn your fking political obsessions and pretend it doesn't affect the result.
My tangent upthread touched on unexamined choices in casting. I don't think you've actually examined why white Gandalf feels so right and obvious and natural to you.
I have, and I even have explicitely spelled it out in as little words as possible to make it simple to understand (which wasn't enough obviously). You're just unable to accept any other answer than some variation of "white supremacy". Probably because you're unable to see past "political" whatever the subject.

It seems that simply conveying the concept of "don't alter a work with political BS" is impossible. It'll always be twisted into something political by people who can't grasp the point.

And I'm tired of wasting time and effort in the same neverending circle of arguing the same point with walls. I shouldn't bother.
 
Speaking of phony and empty, that's exactly what this idiotic argument is. It's not because a work is fictional it can't have a feeling of authenticity, especially if it's deliberately drawing from existing settings (like western Middle-Earth, as said several time, being a stand-in for Western Europe). That's the entire concept of "immersion", which is the entire basis of fiction. You're basically saying that fiction doesn't exist.

You clowns are ready to pretend that immersion and cultural references don't exist and have no importance in a fictional work just so you can shoehorn your fking political obsessions and pretend it doesn't affect the result.

I have, and I even have explicitely spelled it out in as little words as possible to make it simple to understand (which wasn't enough obviously). You're just unable to accept any other answer than some variation of "white supremacy". Probably because you're unable to see past "political" whatever the subject.

It seems that simply conveying the concept of "don't alter a work with political BS" is impossible. It'll always be twisted into something political by people who can't grasp the point.

And I'm tired of wasting time and effort in the same neverending circle of arguing the same point with walls. I shouldn't bother.

Not only unexamined choices and preferences, but advocating against examination...
 
J R Tolkien was white and he published the Hobbit in 1937.

If he had intended Gandalf to be a non white character, it is reasonable
to deduce that he would have likely indicated that Gandalf was not white.

Furthermore the mythology of middle earth reflected European, rather than
for example African or Aztec or Chinese or Indian or Japanese, traditions.
So the inferred assumption by many readers that Gandalf was white is logical.

Nevertheless the producer or director should seek the best actor for the role
as the inherent scope of fantasy permits the casting of Gandalf by any race.
 
These are very reasonable points for why Gandalf can be white, and may even probably be white, but what is being said is an insistence that he MUST be white.

Where does this absolute certainty come from? Its not a weighing of the evidence - whats in the text is kinda circumstantial, and the readers assumption of white-as-default.
 
Well, I for one am not insisting that Gandalf must be white.

People make assumptions, and these are made in context.
I.e. Tentative decisions based upon incomplete information.

When I read a Sci-Fi short story by a person with an African name talking
about a story set in village life in Africa, I assume they are black people.

Similarly if I read a sci-fi story about astronauts with European sounding names,
I will likely assume they are white, in context all 12 moon walkers were white.
 
For the same reasons you saw few Chinese people in Europe during the middle-age.

I feel crazy pointing out that the story does not take place in Europe.

If he had intended Gandalf to be a non white character, it is reasonable to deduce that he would have likely indicated that Gandalf was not white.

Or maybe the character's skin colour makes no difference to the story at all? I mean, I picture Gandalf to be white too, but I've probably been influenced by the movies & growing up surrounded by white people. But if there's a reboot and he's black, it doesn't seem to impact the story in any way, if they get all the other details and nuances right.
 
If the story doesn't define race, selection of race for casting does not backwards define race either. The race of the person casted also does not matter, unless an otherwise better fit for the role was passed over in favor of an irrelevant factor. But that's always a subjective thing. At the end of the day what matters is whether the actor does a good job and whether the rest of the movie is good.
 
If the story doesn't define race, selection of race for casting does not backwards define race either. The race of the person casted also does not matter, unless an otherwise better fit for the role was passed over in favor of an irrelevant factor. But that's always a subjective thing. At the end of the day what matters is whether the actor does a good job and whether the rest of the movie is good.

A nice ideal. But is it reflected in what we see occurring in data?
 
I feel crazy pointing out that the story does not take place in Europe.
It has only been repeated about 1458 times that western Middle-Earth is supposed to take inspiration from medieval Western Europe, but seemingly it wasn't enough and some people still don't get it.

I mean, it's pretty much illustrative of the whole thread : arguments are being made, and are simply completely ignored.
Or maybe the character's skin colour makes no difference to the story at all? I mean, I picture Gandalf to be white too, but I've probably been influenced by the movies & growing up surrounded by white people. But if there's a reboot and he's black, it doesn't seem to impact the story in any way, if they get all the other details and nuances right.
It would impact the overall feeling of the settings and it wouldn't be the way the work was originally designed.
This isn't rocket science and it has already been explained several times. Again, it just feels arguments are made explaining the problem, but are simply ignored and the same question that has already been answered ten times is asked again.

If you adapt Dune and have Fremen who are asian-looking and who use chinese-themed words, you can manage to keep the story completely the same, and yet it wouldn't feel the same at all, even if the actors are good. If you adapt the Monkey King and have the Celestial Emperor played by Ryan Gosling, it definitely sticks out, even if he kills the role. If you adapt Hercules and the actor is a small wimp, it will definitely not convey at all what mythic Hercules was about, even if the guy has load of charisma and talent.
For the n-th time, the overall ambiance is an essential part of what defines a work, and meddling with it (unless it's a deliberate twist) is a flaw. How things look and feel is part of the overall tone, be it the costumes, the scenery or the characters appearance. If you can understand that a costume mismatch alter the overall feeling/tone/ambiance, then you can understand that a casting mismatch does exactly the same.

You usually don't see people arguing that deliberately introducing costume errors is irrelevant or a good thing, or that making an European castle look like the Osaka one has no effect on the setting. But the problem is that people start to be purposely dumb when it comes to actors because race and gender are hot political subjects and there is this childish need to show off your progressive cred even when it's completely unrelated to the point.
 
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One black shapeshifter -> this doesn't feel like fantastic medieval Europe any more?

That tells something about yourself, if that breaks your immersion.

And you still have not addressed the costume errors that were made with Gandalf
 
It has only been repeated about 1458 times that western Middle-Earth is supposed to take inspiration from medieval Western Europe, but seemingly it wasn't enough and some people still don't get it.

I mean, it's pretty much illustrative of the whole thread : arguments are being made, and are simply completely ignored.

Its not that they're ignored, its just they have no bite. In my tangent upthread I talked about the fetishization of fidelity or authenticity. I perceive these as being inappropriate in the fantasy setting and simply inherited from the historical epic genre which the LotR films were largely mimicking.

It would impact the overall feeling of the settings and it wouldn't be the way the work was originally designed.
This isn't rocket science and it has already been explained several times. Again, it just feels arguments are made explaining the problem, but are simply ignored and the same question that has already been answered ten times is asked again.

If you adapt Dune and have Fremen who are asian-looking and who use chinese-themed words, you can manage to keep the story completely the same, and yet it wouldn't feel the same at all, even if the actors are good. If you adapt the Monkey King and have the Celestial Emperor played by Ryan Gosling, it definitely sticks out, even if he kills the role. If you adapt Hercules and the actor is a small wimp, it will definitely not convey at all what Hercules was about, even if the guy has load of charisma and talent.
For the n-th time, the overall ambiance is an essential part of what defines a work, and meddling with when it's not the point is a flaw. How things look and feel is part of the overall tone, be it the costumes, the scenery or the characters appearance. If you can understand that a costume mismatch alter the overall feeling/tone/ambiance, then you can understand that a casting mismatch does exactly the same.

The problem is just people being purposely dumb when it comes to actors because race and gender are hot political subjects and there is this childish need to show off your progressive cred even when it's completely unrelated to the point.

The performance is not the fiction. Why do you need this trivia to be accurate?

To put it another way, why aren't you grumpy that LotR was not performed in the original Westron? Frodo Baggins actual name is Maura Labingi. It was a conceit of Tolkein's that he had translated an original Westron manuscript and substituted appropriate germanic names in their place.

I already know that you don't actually care about this. But this demonstrates that we both have a line of things that we don't care about, and mine is more..... forgiving. Flexible. Willing to fill in gaps between performance and fiction.

If there is something I don't understand, its why you value emulating historical fidelity in fictional settings.
 
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Its not that they're ignored, its just they have no bite. In my tangent upthread I talked about the fetishization of fidelity or authenticity. I perceive these as being inappropriate in the fantasy setting and simply inherited from the historical epic genre which the LotR films were largely mimicking.
You can "perceive" whatever you want, if the author tried to give a tone in its work then it's warranted that this tone is recreated (and that's not even talking about the absurdity of claiming that a feeling of authenticity has no artistic value, but then it's not surprising that people who tries to inject politics in art are ones who don't really care about the artistic aspect, that's the whole cornerstone of the disagreement after all)

And I mean, using LotR as an example is ESPECIALLY ridiculous considering how Tolkien was precisely focused on its settings (to the point it's arguable that the story is actually in service of the setting more than the other way around).
To put it another way, why aren't you grumpy that LotR was not performed in the original Westron? Frodo Baggins actual name is Maura Labingi. It was a conceit of Tolkein's that he had translated an original Westron manuscript and substituted appropriate germanic names in their place.
So the author himself was telling a story in a certain way, and I'm supposed to be grumpy about it ? You were talking about arguments that have no bite ?
If there is something I don't understand, its why you value emulating historical fidelity in fictional settings.
That's certainly not the
It's not "historical", it's "thematic" (and "consistent", but the way this thread is going I guess I'm going to be asked in a faux bewildered tone "why do you care that a work is consistent ?!"). And I've already answered this point, it's because "immersion", which, again as said before (for someone who say "they aren't ignored", you sure ignore a lot of things that were already said) is the fundamental of any fiction (because if you can't get immersed in the work, it simply fails at being fiction).
 
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Yeah, that just all seems as brokebrained to me as curating tragedies using the measures of comedies - a pointless endeavour using the wrong tools.

Ok, so its maybe not para-historical authenticity you're attempting to maximize the score of. Its some kind of extremely inflexible deference to what you perceive as the authors original intent. (note how you just straight up speak for the guy without asking his permission. Did you even notice you were doing this?)

So I guess I could wish no worse fate upon you than to encounter someone with similarly weak immersion muscles, and to have them browbeat you on your failure to notice the hobbits eating the wrong damn type of cake, which was absent from the Text and only mentioned in the Commentaries.
 
Its not that they're ignored, its just they have no bite. In my tangent upthread I talked about the fetishization of fidelity or authenticity. I perceive these as being inappropriate in the fantasy setting and simply inherited from the historical epic genre which the LotR films were largely mimicking.
This sounds like you're saying that authenticity or consistency in fantasy are unimportant just because it's fantasy.

ALL literary genres have rules. The primary rule is to be consistent in whatever in-universe rules you've set for yourself. This is why there's a cynical fan saying about Star Trek that starships travel not at a consistent set of warp speed factors, but rather at the speed of plot. Sometimes it takes a week or two to get from Earth to the Klingon homeworld. Other times it takes no more than a few hours. It depends on how long the writer has decided the ship needs to take or for the characters to have a conversation.

So the more consistently the rules are applied, the more I respect a work. It's why I do research for my fanfics, rather than making <stuff> up and being called on it later when someone says, "Waitaminute, this doesn't make sense." It's why, if I'm adapting a game to prose and I find plot holes or inconsistencies, I either fix them or find a way to explain them. I don't want to repeat the original mistake in my own work.

The performance is not the fiction. Why do you need this trivia to be accurate?
Not everyone considers the same thing to be trivial. You would not believe the threads of hundreds of pages over on TrekBBS of people arguing over the precise color of Kirk's uniform shirts or the precise color/configuration of a particular model of ship's warp nacelles. I don't care about any of that (well, other than Kirk wearing one shirt when entering a turbolift and a different one when he exits). To me it's trivial, but to others it's something important enough for them to argue about in a thread that spans thousands of posts over a period of several years.

To put it another way, why aren't you grumpy that LotR was not performed in the original Westron? Frodo Baggins actual name is Maura Labingi. It was a conceit of Tolkein's that he had translated an original Westron manuscript and substituted appropriate germanic names in their place.
It was a conceit of Robert Graves' that I, Claudius was actually Claudius' own real autobiography. The reason it was published in English is because almost nobody who would read it can read Latin. The reading audience knows that, and so do the people who watch the miniseries that was made in the '70s. The audience is meant to understand that Claudius wrote in Latin, and get on with the story.

If there is something I don't understand, its why you value emulating historical fidelity in fictional settings.
Most fictional settings are based in the history of whatever the setting is. You don't find modern cops using the same weapons used in Bonanza or Gunsmoke, right? And you don't find Adam Cartwright pulling out a modern weapon when he shoots at a bank robber or cattle rustler.

So it should be that if a work of fantasy is set in medieval times, there should not be any anachronistic elements in it unless there's a purpose to it that fits the story.

Take my own NaNo project, for example. The computer game it's based on screwed up as far as authenticity goes. It's set in the early 11th century, yet there are references to Shakespeare (a quote from Richard III), the Brothers Grimm (a quote from one of their stories), and one character wears an anachronistic item of clothing. I can only surmise that the people who wrote the script for this game either didn't do their research or they didn't think the people playing the game would know the difference.

Well, I know the difference, and these anachronistic elements annoy me. I don't want to perpetuate an error, so I need to decide if Shakespeare and the Brothers Grimm were born centuries earlier, or if I need to eliminate those parts of the story, or figure out different quotations that would fit the story... and just not have the character wear that particular item of clothing. It hardly matters if he isn't wearing it since he's dead by that point and we just see his corpse lying on the floor. But it does matter to me if it's inaccurate, as period-appropriate costuming is something I became immersed in researching during my time in the Society for Creative Anachronism. If you're going to be incorrect, have a good explanation for it. This game didn't, but my prose adaptation will.
 
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