Importance of white representation in fiction

[warpus]

This is the final paragraph and signature of the foreword Frank Herbert wrote for the Dune Encyclopedia. His "delighted approval" is good enough for me.

Yeah, but you left out the part where he said that he will overrule the encyclopedia when he sees fit, which he did a whole bunch in the sequels. So there's a whole bunch of contradictions between it and the original novels already and you can see that both went in separate directions when you compare them both. I don't own it yet like I said, but I've read many excerpts from it online. I see the encyclopedia as a fun "what if" sort of appendix, but not a definite guide. The same way you probably see the prequels, minus the fun part.

To stay on topic here, let me just say that Rocky should have always been a cyborg, and let me re-iterate how stupid I think that "the importance of white representation" sounds to my ears. Americans are way too focused on skin colour and identity. White culture doesn't exist, so you can't represent it. If y'all mean WASP representation then just go outside and look around

 

[Akka]

An author can absolutely tack things onto any narrative they choose to write. An author doesn't get to claim something is built-in just because they happened to write it that way. To me, "tacked-on" vs. "built-in" are indicators of quality of the integration (of the thing we're discussing).

Totally agree with that, but you'll notice that if an author integrates something badly, it's considered a flaw.
And notice that by essence, altering a work with political intent is tacked-on. You can't integrate it without changing the work, unless it was already in the work to begin with (in which case you don't need to add it).
You kind of pointed precisely one of the main reason I despise shoehorning political stuff into existing work (the second being the nature of altering a work for political purpose, which you refer later as my problem with the "intent").

But if someone merely cast the immortal demigod as a black guy, even if it were for the sole reason of better on-screen representation, I wouldn't consider that tacked-on in the slightest.

And yet is is, and you actually admits it low-key later by recognizing that Gandalf is "implicitely" white. More about that later.

I consider representation in casting to be a fair reason to cast people in a specific role. This isn't me saying "find someone who can't act", obviously, they have to be able to act, and so on.

Representation in casting is a political issue, it has absolutely no place in artistic decisions (unless the work is itself about said political issue). Arts are welcome to address politics, but politics should stay away from art. Attempts to modify art because of political agenda has a name : propaganda. And it's not something I want to condone, and people condoning it are typically hypocrites because they only condone it as long as it goes their way and are quick to denounce it when it goes the other (see all the - valid - complaints about whitewashing and compare them to this thread).

Also, why would "being able to act" is acceptable but "not looking like the character is supposed to" isn't ? After all, both are about adding immersion to the work (I'll recognize that good acting is generally more important than appearance, but both counts nevertheless, and if you accept one on this ground, why would you reject the other ? Screams of double-standard to me).

What artistic integrity is present in making Gandalf white? What value does this give the setting?

I already answered this point several times, it's about the general tone and flow. It's even been the focus of several posts, I'm just a bit tired of repeating myself here.

Would you agree that the reasons for making a change, and the impact of the change itself, are two separate things? i.e. one could be bad, but the other could be good? Or both could be bad, both could be good, etc? Because that's how I see it. It seems to me that your perception of the reason colours the impact of the change, even when the resultant quality might not actually suffer.

Intent and results are of course not the same (though they aren't completely separate, because the reason why some change are made is often strongly correlated with the quality results you get).
But the main point is that your definition of "quality doesn't suffer" is glossing over some pretty impactful parts - see below.

This is what we keep coming back to with the hypothetical of Gandalf being black. I've demonstrated that there is no qualitative impact on the actual plot and character interactions

Wrong, you've claimed it, you've not demonstrated it. If you gave him blue skin and flappable ears and didn't change a line of dialogue, it would also not change anything in the story. But it would look out of place, and the fact that nobody would react to it would make it even more weird, it would not "demonstrate" that it made no qualitative impact on the work*.

To come back at the previous "tacked on" and "setting tone" parts above, lots of things are implied and not detailed, the implicit being one of the most powerful tool in storytelling (elegance in writing is often about making the reader understand what is conveyed implicitely rather than explicitely). The fact something is "implied" doesn't mean it's "ignorable" nor that it doesn't participate in the overall feeling (on the contrary).

It's implicit that Gondor is "medieval european" in feel, even if not everything is detailed. When thinking about the soldier of Gondor, we imagine typical european gear. If you had suddenly a few guys in samurai armor, it would be pretty noticeable. That would either be deliberate (implying there are other cultures inspired by Japan in some other place of the world and they are somewhat involved in Gondor, or that there are mercenaries/travelers from afar, whatever), in which case it can participates to the worldbuilding and feel if it's well integrated and written, or just tacked on, a flaw that stick out and breaks the flow and blurry the perception of the setting. Forced diversity falls square in the latter.


* I should normally not need to point it, but just in case : Gandalf with blue skin and flappable ears is obviously not on the same level as him being black, the point is precisely to push the concept farther to illustrate it, it's a common reasoning device, etc.

 

[warpus]

Blue Gandalf would look out of place only because there are no blue humans though. A blue human in any story would look out of place, whereas a black human is pretty normal.

 

[Senethro]

Akka talking about immersion and tone as if they are external, objective things that people are fools for not seeing. But actually he means Akka's immersion, and tone as perceived by Akka, which are subjective and in fact take place inside his own skull.

Is he doing this deliberately or not? He might do so if he has caught on that there is something funny about his Whites Only aesthetic, but he himself is consciously not racist, so this is one way to resolve the contradiction.

 

[warpus]

As someone who grew up in a homogenous culture where everybody is pretty much the same skin colour, the same religion, the same ethnicity, etc. I can understand that to some extent. If you read a story and you imagine it to be a certain way in your head, then that can be a hard thing to break. But at the same time it seems that you also have to accept that somebody who grew up somewhere else might have a completely different view that is not compatible with yours as well. I mean, I also always imagined Gandalf to be white, due to my own biases that have shaped my early life and the fact that a lot of the books i read growing up only ever had white people in them (Cause at the time almost 100% of all Polish people were white so naturally Polish authors would default to that). So as a result, in my early life, if I was reading a book, my natural instinct was to assume that unless pointed out otherwise, the character is white.

A series of books I read when I was growing up in Poland was about a travelling adventurer and had these dynamics - the ethnicity of the people they ran into was sometimes hinted at simply by giving us a certain name (and sometimes explained outright). Some names sound African for instance (i.e. Nigerian or what have you), and some names sound East Asian. This traveller went all over the planet and met people of all ethnicities, and since it was written for a Polish audience, the ethnicity of the Poles in the story never had to be explained. If somebody was named Piotrek, you just assumed they are white. But a lot of Poles at the time just had no experience with far away cultures, so they had to be either explained more or hinted at, depending on the impact on the story. So.. if somebody had a Chinese sounding name, you can assume they are chinese, and so on. But if this traveller was in New Zealand for instance, and ran into the Maori at one point (which happened), these people were described in a lot more detail since the vast majority of Polish people did not even know that the Maori exist, let alone what they look like. These dynamics can easily put you in a place where you assume that unless specified, the character is of your own ethnic background.

So yeah, I can see where this sort of thinking can originate. But in this case it seems that if we ever see a non-white Gandalf you can just say "Oh, okay" and move on. It's not like his race matters to the story. If Gandalf had a habit of introducing himself like this: "I'm Gandalf, the white skinned mofo, like my father and his fathers before him" and that was an important character trait, then I'd have a different opinion. But the skin colour literally doesn't matter to the story, so..

 

[Birdjaguar]

I suggest that one of you software guys create a program that allows a viewer to change the skin color of actors in a movie before they watch it on one of their devices. I'm pretty sure the technology is already out there. Such an app would make all this go away. Lots of money to made.

 

[Senethro]

I suggest that one of you software guys create a program that allows a viewer to change the skin color of actors in a movie before they watch it on one of their devices. I'm pretty sure the technology is already out there. Such an app would make all this go away. Lots of money to made.

Well, I'm sure there is a market for it, but its clearly got problems attached to it. The issue is it allows you to hire actors of one ethnicity, and then erase them. Taking positive action to "cleanse" a piece of media in this way is obviously Very Weird.

Compare with the more common practice of simply not hiring actors of particular ethnicities. While it achieves the same outcome, because it is achieved through omission instead of a single identifiable action, its more likely to slip by unnoticed.

 

[Sarin]

Blue Gandalf would look out of place only because there are no blue humans though. A blue human in any story would look out of place, whereas a black human is pretty normal.

For a modern-day USA, yes. For medieval Europe, black sticks out almost as much as blue.

There's an awful lot of US-centrism here. Or maybe I should call it western metropolitan, because that's how widespread this phenomenon is. This melting pot of races and ethnics is not an universal, default thing for humanity, but something born out of the awful colonial history of some countries, and their attempts to distance from it. Whatever, that's your thing. But when the work is based on different background, one where some races don't fit right, then for those closer to such background than your average American it can be jarring, and stinks of political propaganda, especially when it's being done badly and for obvious tokenism-representation for the sake of representation.
The Witcher series, for example. It's based on culture close to me, stories I grew up with, and the casting decisions stuck like a sore thumb for me, since they respected neither the background, the plot nor the background themes of the books, and that goes not only for some black actors, but some other too (quite notably, Cavill as Geralt).

And the immersion aspect and connection to real world is important. It can convey a lot about the setting without having to spell it out. Take the three recently most popular fantasy worlds. Tolkien, Game of Thrones, Witcher. All three very quickly convey that they're based off medieval Europe, and with it come many unspoken assumptions. So when the matters of royal lineage and succession come up, reader that's even only little familiar with the background, be it from history lessons or absorbed through other means, does not need explanation of what it's about and why is it important, and so the story can keep pace without interruptions.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, I'm sure there is a market for it, but its clearly got problems attached to it. The issue is it allows you to hire actors of one ethnicity, and then erase them. Taking positive action to "cleanse" a piece of media in this way is obviously Very Weird.

Compare with the more common practice of simply not hiring actors of particular ethnicities. While it achieves the same outcome, because it is achieved through omission instead of a single identifiable action, its more likely to slip by unnoticed.

If the change was only to your viewing experience, it is just accommodating personal preference. It is not too different than adding subtitles in your language. Nothing needs to change in the original version. Blue Gandalf can become a reality.

1. Open your movie or show
2. Open the app to display main characters
3. Click on the characters you want to affect
4. Choose their skin tone
5. Click Play

 

[Angst]

For a modern-day USA, yes. For medieval Europe, black sticks out almost as much as blue.

I mean, not really. Black people seldom lived and traded in Europe, blue people don't exist ever save maybe some very rare genetic disorder maybe? Am I being too Aspergers about this, maybe, like, I get you're overstating to make a point, but black people in premodern Europe weren't unheard of, since, like, Rome, at least. "Almost" is trying an awful lot of stretching here.

Then again, I'd wager areas that actually never saw different skin colors were crap backwaters like pre-Norman Britain since they were not as worth traveling to.

And then again, again, Lord of the Rings portray massive prosperous kingdoms honestly not too far from stuff like the Haradrim to trade with. Specifically this kind of prosperity hubs is historically woven into foreigners showing up to buy and sell stuff. Which is one of many reasons I can understand people feeling distate from Middle Earth's depiction of what supposed prosperity & glory looks like.

Again, have to reiterate, still love the setting.

 

[Sarin]

I mean, not really. Black people seldom lived and traded in Europe, blue people don't exist ever save maybe some very rare genetic disorder maybe? Am I being too Aspergers about this, maybe, like, I get you're overstating to make a point, but black people in premodern Europe weren't unheard of, since, like, Rome, at least.

Then again, I'd wager areas that saw such skin colors were crap backwaters like pre-Norman Britain since they were not as worth traveling

And then again, again, Lord of the Rings portray massive prosperous kingdoms honestly not too far from stuff like the Haradrim to trade with. Specifically this kind of prosperity hubs is historically woven into foreigners showing up to buy and sell stuff. Which is one of many reasons I can understand people feeling distate from Middle Earth's depiction of what supposed prosperity looks like.

Again, have to reiterate, still love the setting.

Black people were in Europe...but outside of Iberian peninsula, Byzantine Empire and maybe few other places in the south, they were curiosities, often in circuses. Keep in mind that back then, people didn't have internet or TV. They were far less connected, and I can guarantee you that over 99% of people who lived north of Mediterranean coast in the middle ages never saw a black person. Hell, some European countries kept black people as exhibits in zoos all the way to 20th century...

This is actually noticeable, even almost spelled out in LotR. Pay attention to hobbits, how they expand their perception of the world and react to it. Despite their own history being vastly affected by the existence and fall of Arnor, they know virtually nothing about it besides some old tales and existence of Gondor has far less relevance to them than a brawl that happened last week at Prancing Pony. At least in the beginning...

 

[Birdjaguar]

blue people don't exist ever save maybe some very rare genetic disorder maybe?

"Never say never"
Horse wormer people are likely to have tried:

Colloidal silver

When taken by mouth, silver builds up in your body. Over months to years, this can result in a blue-gray discoloration of your skin, eyes, internal organs, nails and gums. Doctors call this argyria (ahr-JIR-e-uh). It's usually permanent. In rare cases, high doses of colloidal silver can cause serious side effects, such as seizures and organ damage.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-.../expert-answers/colloidal-silver/faq-20058061

 

[Senethro]

Black people were in Europe...but outside of Iberian peninsula, Byzantine Empire and maybe few other places in the south, they were curiosities, often in circuses. Keep in mind that back then, people didn't have internet or TV. They were far less connected, and I can guarantee you that over 99% of people who lived north of Mediterranean coast in the middle ages never saw a black person. Hell, some European countries kept black people as exhibits in zoos all the way to 20th century...

This is actually noticeable, even almost spelled out in LotR. Pay attention to hobbits, how they expand their perception of the world and react to it. Despite their own history being vastly affected by the existence and fall of Arnor, they know virtually nothing about it besides some old tales and existence of Gondor has far less relevance to them than a brawl that happened last week at Prancing Pony. At least in the beginning...

How should this affect hiring practices in acting though? You're stating a bunch of stuff, but not really what to do about it.

 

[Angst]

"Never say never"
Horse wormer people are likely to have tried:

Colloidal silver

When taken by mouth, silver builds up in your body. Over months to years, this can result in a blue-gray discoloration of your skin, eyes, internal organs, nails and gums. Doctors call this argyria (ahr-JIR-e-uh). It's usually permanent. In rare cases, high doses of colloidal silver can cause serious side effects, such as seizures and organ damage.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-.../expert-answers/colloidal-silver/faq-20058061

I'm glad I said maybe. : )

Black people were in Europe...but outside of Iberian peninsula, Byzantine Empire and maybe few other places in the south, they were curiosities, often in circuses. Keep in mind that back then, people didn't have internet or TV. They were far less connected, and I can guarantee you that over 99% of people who lived north of Mediterranean coast in the middle ages never saw a black person. Hell, some European countries kept black people as exhibits in zoos all the way to 20th century...

This is actually noticeable, even almost spelled out in LotR. Pay attention to hobbits, how they expand their perception of the world and react to it. Despite their own history being vastly affected by the existence and fall of Arnor, they know virtually nothing about it besides some old tales and existence of Gondor has far less relevance to them than a brawl that happened last week at Prancing Pony. At least in the beginning...

So the question is, is the white shining city of Minas Tirith reasonably equivalent to northern europe crap hamlet or actually a Roman dreamscape insert? It's definitely drawing from some conception of romanticized something-Britain, but I'm asking, practically, what's up with that?

Like the hobbits, sure, they're backwater hillbillies, but something as massive, prosperous, coastal, and as close to the Haradrim as Gondor? And following this, why the hell can literal god's angel on earth only be white? He ain't no hobbit.

 

[warpus]

I suggest that one of you software guys create a program that allows a viewer to change the skin color of actors in a movie before they watch it on one of their devices. I'm pretty sure the technology is already out there. Such an app would make all this go away. Lots of money to made.

Deepfake tech you mean? That's an interesting idea. If you mean that this tech would change the skin colour of the actor though, that wouldn't always look right. You'd need to also change the facial features, as people from different parts of the world tend to have slightly different facial features. If you take Jackie Chan and just change his skin colour to black, that wouldn't look right, it would sort of look like blackface, which people would probably complain about. But deepfake tech could be in theory used to let's say change Jackie Chan to Oprah so you could watch Rumble in the Bronx with Oprah Winfrey kicking butt, or your uncle, or whoever.

At some point we might not even need actors for big blockbusters. This is all driven by money, right? I can totally imagine a future where Hollywood studios have bought the rights to certain actors likenesses, let's say Harrison Ford or Tom Cruise.. and once the tech is good enough just use technology to insert Tom Cruise into the movie and bam - no need to pay an actor. Instead you pay the estate of the deceased Cruise, or whatever. Or you already own the rights to his likeness, meaning you'd have paid for it upfront. We aren't there yet, but we seem to be getting closer. And you know Hollywood would love to be able to use famous faces that everyone recognizes, like James Dean or James Earl Jones or whatever. In the future these names might very well star in movies, without any actors required.

Allowing the viewer to change the actors at a whim though? That would take even more advanced tech it seems, and it also seems the studios might be against that sort of thing, since it'd lead to all sorts of whacky creations, a bunch of them probably offensive. I bet they'd see it as a diluting of their brand or whatever. BUT it would be pretty damn cool if you took a picture/scan of your face/body before watching a movie, and when you watch the movie you are a character in it, whether an important one or somebody in the background. That would be pretty damn cool and I can see them one day doing something like that, assuming human civilization is around long enough for that sort of technology to become viable.

I mean, not really. Black people seldom lived and traded in Europe, blue people don't exist ever save maybe some very rare genetic disorder maybe? Am I being too Aspergers about this, maybe, like, I get you're overstating to make a point, but black people in premodern Europe weren't unheard of, since, like, Rome, at least. "Almost" is trying an awful lot of stretching here.

Yeah.. Like.. Even in let's say medieval Poland, I'm sure that somebody of African descent showing up would be unusual, but wouldn't there be stories of Africans existing? Surely there's been mercenaries throughout history from all sorts of places, not to mention slaves. So the royal court would find it unusual but they wouldn't think it's an alien. Peasants would be uneducated so who knows what they'd think I guess.

I'm pretty sure if somebody blue showed up they'd be burned at the stake or thrown in a circus and showed off as a freak though. But somebody from Africa would instead be viewed as an exotic curiosity instead, even if in some villages the peasants might have gone after him nevertheless, due to being different.

 

[Sarin]

"Never say never"
Horse wormer people are likely to have tried:

Colloidal silver

When taken by mouth, silver builds up in your body. Over months to years, this can result in a blue-gray discoloration of your skin, eyes, internal organs, nails and gums. Doctors call this argyria (ahr-JIR-e-uh). It's usually permanent. In rare cases, high doses of colloidal silver can cause serious side effects, such as seizures and organ damage.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-.../expert-answers/colloidal-silver/faq-20058061

I'd need to check sources, but it wouldn't surprise me if some people who tried out creating their own Mithridate ended up that way. It was a popular thing throughout the nobility in Europe, supposed antidote that could make one immune to all poisons.

How should this affect hiring practices in acting though? You're stating a bunch of stuff, but not really what to do about it.

The post you're quoting is more a tangent between me and Angst that'll be interesting, but little related to what I stated before.

So the question is, is the white shining city of Minas Tirith reasonably equivalent to northern europe crap hamlet or actually a Roman dreamscape insert? It's definitely drawing from some conception of romanticized something-Britain, but I'm asking, practically, what's up with that?

View attachment 618390

Like the hobbits, sure, they're backwater hillbillies, but something as massive, prosperous, coastal, and as close to the Haradrim as Gondor? And following this, why the hell can literal god's angel on earth only be white? He ain't no hobbit.

Arnor and Gondor are drawing more on the popular image of Western and Eastern Roman Empires.

Anyway, why should Gandalf be white? To be relatable and not seem too foreign to those he was sent to assist. For same reason, I'd expect Blue wizards to have distinctly Middle-eastern appearance.

 

[Angst]

Arnor and Gondor are drawing more on the popular image of Western and Eastern Roman Empires.

Yes, and key is popular. I'm not saying the worldbuilding isn't evoking a specific feeling. It does what it does pretty well. Glorious white and good native Europeans fighting absolute evil. I'm just saying that black people in "Not"-Europe, particularly in something as large, wealthy, cosmopolitan and close to Foreignland as Gondor isn't practically weird featuring nonwhite people. Same goes for medieval Europe. And I get how some people can feel iffy rewatching Lord of the Rings because of that. Again, myself, a fan. I just understand how it detaches concurrent audiences sometimes from enjoying it.

Anyway, why should Gandalf be white? To be relatable and not seem too foreign to those he was sent to assist. For same reason, I'd expect Blue wizards to have distinctly Middle-eastern appearance.

This is so cool. Now I want fan art. All blue wizard art I've seen has them white. If only it wasn't speculation.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Black people were in Europe...but outside of Iberian peninsula, Byzantine Empire and maybe few other places in the south, they were curiosities, often in circuses. Keep in mind that back then, people didn't have internet or TV. They were far less connected, and I can guarantee you that over 99% of people who lived north of Mediterranean coast in the middle ages never saw a black person. Hell, some European countries kept black people as exhibits in zoos all the way to 20th century...

This is actually noticeable, even almost spelled out in LotR. Pay attention to hobbits, how they expand their perception of the world and react to it. Despite their own history being vastly affected by the existence and fall of Arnor, they know virtually nothing about it besides some old tales and existence of Gondor has far less relevance to them than a brawl that happened last week at Prancing Pony. At least in the beginning...

Gandalf is already a wizard, origins unknown, to everyone in The Shire. Not sure being black would make him much more of a curiosity than he already was.

 

[Sarin]

Gandalf is already a wizard, origins unknown, to everyone in The Shire. Not sure being black would make him much more of a curiosity than he already was.

Keywords: in the Shire.

Shire was just Gandalf's little side project. The reason why he, Saruman and Radagast were sent to ME was to advise the obvious powers-Gondor, Rohan, elves and what little was left of Arnor, while the Blue wizards were apparently sent to sway Rhun.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Horse wormer people are likely to have tried:

You might want to try "fact checking" that one.