Importance of white representation in fiction

as simply a matter of personal preference

I'm expressing my preference (but I'm just pretending that what I'm saying is objectively true, don't tell anyone)

EDIT: As an aside... something loosely related that this made me think of, is GoT. Usually, the books precede the movies, so that is good grounds to say the book is authoritative "canon", but what about when the movie precedes the book?... in this case, the Season/Episodes of the show that were produced prior to GRRM finishing/releasing the books? Do those count as the real "canon" since they came out first? Or is it something else that makes books more authoritative, in your mind? I have other reasons for preferring movies, but I am interested to hear what you think.

In Star Wars the films are canon because they came first. I'm not a GRRM fan so I don't have to sort out that particular mess, thank the gods.
 
In Star Wars the films are canon because they came first. I'm not a GRRM fan so I don't have to sort out that particular mess, thank the gods.
Which version, though? The originals or the ones Lucas tinkered with?
 
Actually in the Original, Greedo never shot at all. Just get a hold of the Despecialized Editions and it's all good. :)
 
So authors aren't allowed to change their minds?
I was mostly making a star wars joke/meme, but if an author redoes a story with significant changes it is a new story.
 
So authors aren't allowed to change their minds?
It's one thing for a rogue to shoot first. It's a totally different thing if the rogue turns out to be one of the heroes. Heroes don't shoot first.

And Jabba wasn't physically in the first movie, just mentioned. Lucas decided, "Hey, technology has improved so I can plop Jabba down in the middle of the spaceport!" (thus ruining the surprise people got in the second movie because we honestly had no idea what Jabba looked like; it's like it never occurred to him that there would still be people on the planet who hadn't yet seen these).
 
I was mostly making a star wars joke/meme, but if an author redoes a story with significant changes it is a new story.

But still, authorial authority has been called upon many times in this thread. I think its important if we establish there are limits to it.
 
You're presuming that George will be releasing any more books.
I'm actually presuming that he won't, sadly. I think his health is poor, he's gotten his money and he doesn't seem motivated to "finish" the story. I'd love to see the ending of GoT redone... that show was so freaking awesome until the end of S8Ep2... and then... poop wahn wahn wahn :sad:
 
I'm actually presuming that he won't, sadly. I think his health is poor, he's gotten his money and he doesn't seem motivated to "finish" the story. I'd love to see the ending of GoT redone... that show was so freaking awesome until the end of S8Ep2... and then... poop wahn wahn wahn :sad:
I feel the problems started in season 5. And I agree he won't finish, as he just doesn't seem to care anymore. He got his money and lost his drive. He's clearly moved on.
 
It's one thing for a rogue to shoot first. It's a totally different thing if the rogue turns out to be one of the heroes. Heroes don't shoot first.

And Jabba wasn't physically in the first movie, just mentioned. Lucas decided, "Hey, technology has improved so I can plop Jabba down in the middle of the spaceport!" (thus ruining the surprise people got in the second movie because we honestly had no idea what Jabba looked like; it's like it never occurred to him that there would still be people on the planet who hadn't yet seen these).
I thought Jabba was seen in one of the original scenes shot as a human dressed in Tatooine clothes, similar to what the Rancor's tender wears, just with a shirt instead of bare chested... but that scene was later cut from the theatrical release and they decided to make Jabba a slug-creature later.

About heroes shooting first... Anti-heroes and complex heroes certainly can and do shoot first, but that's almost besides the point right? Because when Han has that fateful confrontation with Greedo, he's not a hero yet, he's explicitly a villain, a pirate/smuggler, outlaw/criminal. So it makes perfect sense for him to shoot first, he's a gunslinging cut-throat ne'er-do-well! It's an establishing scene for his character. That's the reason people are so passionate about him shooting first.

BTW i know you know all this... I just like talking about Han :D
 
Last edited:
I feel the problems started in season 5. And I agree he won't finish, as he just doesn't seem to care anymore. He got his money and lost his drive. He's clearly moved on.
My view is more forgiving than yours, but I think most GoT fans fell the same way, in the sense that it went off the rails at some point and the ending was completely botched beyond belief. :sad:

As I've said before I regard seasons 1-6 as a masterpiece. Season 7 was where things started going off the rails a little for me, but I still regard season 7 as good, just not as good as the prior seasons. Even the first two episodes of season 8 were, again, not anywhere near as good as the prior season, but still pretty decent.

But starting with episode 3 of season 8, its a disaster. Trainwreck total disaster. :shake: In some ways episode 3 is actually the worst episode of season 8. Ugh... every time I start thinking about season 8... especially episode 3... I start to get so disgusted. :yuck:
 
Which version, though? The originals or the ones Lucas tinkered with?

The originals. George Lucas' later edits are not to be spoken of.

Heroes don't shoot first.

Heroes (who aren't morons) absolutely shoot first when they're already being held at gunpoint by someone who is going to turn them over to torture and death.
 
I'm actually presuming that he won't, sadly. I think his health is poor, he's gotten his money and he doesn't seem motivated to "finish" the story. I'd love to see the ending of GoT redone... that show was so freaking awesome until the end of S8Ep2... and then... poop wahn wahn wahn :sad:
He could always authorize someone else to take over as a "co-writer." That's what Marion Zimmer Bradley did when her health deteriorated so badly in the last few years before she died. It's said that the last Darkover book she wrote entirely on her own was The Heirs of Hammerfell (and the quality of that one was definitely off). Everything after that was written with a co-author/ghostwriter (whether Mercedes Lackey, Diana Paxson, or Deborah Ross, until it was official that Deborah Ross had "inherited" the right to continue the series). Some of the co-written books were simply novels other writers created from MZB's outlines or notes or conversations.

Other authors do this as well, and sadly it's usually obvious when a co-writer/ghostwriter takes over. For instance, I can tell exactly which parts of the Darkover novel Recontact were written by MZB and which were written by Mercedes Lackey. Lackey was one of the fantasy writers MZB "discovered" and mentored back when she first started publishing pro-Darkover anthologies and the Sword & Sorceress anthology series, and went on to have a thriving literary career of her own, but her style and MZB's style are decades apart, and it shows.

But then you sometimes discover writers who can imitate the original author's style so well that if two samples were compared with the names removed, it would be hard to tell who wrote which sample. For instance, there's an author who posts Alliance-Union/Cyteen fanfic over on AO3, and her style is so close to C.J. Cherryh's that Cherryh herself could have written that story.

I know from first-hand experience how difficult this is. One of my extremely-long-term fanfic projects started in the '90s, when I had an idea to do a crossover between the 1990 Handmaid's Tale movie and the TV series Sliders. Trying to juggle the speech patterns of two sets of Sliders characters, depict one set of Sliders characters as being native to Atwood's Gilead setting, plus achieve the writing/dialogue style of Margaret Atwood in the same story is not easy.

I'm just glad I'm not using the Handmaid's Tale TV series for this project. The movie was violent enough. Of course if I ever do finish this project, some readers are going to think it's about the TV series and not the movie (since most TV series fans don't even know there was a movie in 1990), and screech at me for racism because I'm following the novel and movie in its treatment of racial issues.


BTW... if you don't like how the series turned out (I have no idea; I've never seen so much as 5 minutes of it and haven't read the books), get thee to any major fanfic website. I guarantee there will have been "fix-it" fics posted.

I thought Jabba was seen in one of the original scenes shot as a human dressed in Tatooine clothes, similar to what the Rancor's tender wears, just with a shirt instead of bare chested... but that scene was later cut from the theatrical release and they decided to make Jabba a slug-creature later.
Not-so-fun fact: Lucas ripped off enough of Dune for Star Wars that Frank Herbert seriously considered suing. Jabba is just one of those reasons.

About heroes shooting first... Anti-heroes and complex heroes certainly can and do shoot first, but that's almost besides the point right? Because when Han has that fateful confrontation with Greedo, he's not a hero yet, he's explicitly a villain, a pirate/smuggler, outlaw/criminal. So it makes perfect sense for him to shoot first, he's a gunslinging cut-throat ne'er-do-well! It's an establishing scene for his character. That's the reason people are so passionate about him shooting first.

BTW i know you know all this... I just like talking about Han :D
Yes, that was my point. At the time the scene in Mos Eisley Cantina was shot, Han was not yet a hero. He was a rogue. He was a criminal. Therefore, him shooting first was not a problem.

It was later, after the movie came out when some people got antsy about the idea of a hero shooting first, that this isn't what heroes do. So in addition to plopping Jabba down in the spaceport, Lucas fixed his "hero-shoots-first" problem (that was never really a problem as far as I'm concerned).

The originals. George Lucas' later edits are not to be spoken of.
:thumbsup:

Heroes (who aren't morons) absolutely shoot first when they're already being held at gunpoint by someone who is going to turn them over to torture and death.
Naturally. But we're talking about parents running around shouting "Think of the impressionable children!" :run: and other similar bits of PR nonsense.


BTW, I once used a bit of strategy in a D&D game that I read in one of Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame novels. One of the protagonists, a female magic user, was part of a party of adventurers who were going after the enemy who had done some very awful things to them. She was told to "use your invisibility spell, sneak up on the guard, and use your dagger to slit his throat."

So that's what I did, and immediately had 6 people staring at me and one of them asked in shock, "What alignment ARE you?!" :eek:

(Lawful Neutral, as I recall)

But the fact is we were in a "kill or be killed" situation, so given that my character had that spell and a dagger, I did what the character in the novel did. It worked.
 
I thought Jabba was seen in one of the original scenes shot as a human dressed in Tatooine clothes, similar to what the Rancor's tender wears, just with a shirt instead of bare chested... but that scene was later cut from the theatrical release and they decided to make Jabba a slug-creature later.
My understanding is that that scene is the one in the hacked version, and they CGI'ed the slug into where the human was. Hence Han walks over Jabba's tail, because there was no tail.
 
My understanding is that that scene is the one in the hacked version, and they CGI'ed the slug into where the human was. Hence Han walks over Jabba's tail, because there was no tail.
That scene... (with the CGI Jabba in the "remastered" Ep 4) was so bad :vomit: Utter garbage. Its one of the worst additions to the OT. That scene was wrong for so many reasons, too many to count really but Han's interaction with Jabba was way off, he wasn't respectful/fearful enough, and Jabba is made to look like a clown and a softie which is totally contrary to the badass ruthless gangster that he is depicted as in EP 6. Plus... Jabba... walking around??? No:nope:

I could go on and on... It was just... bad.
 
He might as well have put in a scene with C3PO in drag.

Also this reminds me of Dear Abby’s daughter taking over for her.
 
He might as well have put in a scene with C3PO in drag.

Also this reminds me of Dear Abby’s daughter taking over for her.
That's an odd connection.
 
Top Bottom