Improving on Monarch level

[Seraiel]

Tested that already. Mansa would accept.

Then I'd wait until Mansa chooses his next tech. If he chooses Music or Compass, trade immediately, but if he goes for Machinery directly, wait 'til Optics is 1T and trade then. Afterwards, start a Golden Age with the GA and switch to Buro + Pacifism. Spread your religion to the cities in which you run specialists befire, so as long as you still can build Missionaries easily through OR.

 

[kevtrev]

You're doing well

I worked Cows and Stone most of the time but since a few turns (basically since the point where I saw that I don't need more war units for Monty) I reconfigured Haithabu to a helper city for Nidaros, i.e. prioritized the overlapping cottages to grow them for the capital. Isn't that one of the most important things to give the capital as many grown cottages as possible when we jump into Bureaucracy? At least this helper city concept has been emphasized many times in my earlier games.

You're right, but Nidaros should get the hamlets and towns because it has the Academy. Haithabu could work the cows, stone, cottage and/or run some Scientists.

Oh, one question in advance: Compass is finished but Mansa still needs 3 turns for CS so we need something for the research queue before I can trade. Is it an option to research Optics for example and then try to trade Music+Compass+Optics for CS+Philo? I have already invested a few turns into CS earlier which would, maybe, make this trade possible.

Note you won't be able to trade Compass and Optics in the same turn.

Your plan should be to:

-get CS and Philo

-finish the NE in time for your Golden Age with the largest possible population and food bars full. This allows you to "starve" your cities for 7 turns of the G age, running as many specialists as possible. Uppsala will obviously run maximal specialists, but think about doing the same in Haithabu and Birka.

-burn your GArtist for the G age, run bureau, caste and pacifism, aim for 2+ great scientists and 1+ merchants. The GS's can bulb Paper, Edu and Lib (if you don't have Machinery), but most people don't use one for Paper. The GM runs a trade mission and gives gold for either deficit research or upgrading troops, in your case Elephants to Cuirassiers once MT is in (if you chose to go that way)

-on the last turn of the G age, go back to slavery and OR (but obv. stay in bureau)

You want to do this because:

-there's no anarchy in golden ages so you avoid losing 2 turns

-you get +100% GP production in golden ages

 

[Seraiel]

on the last turn of the G age, go back to slavery and OR (but obv. stay in bureau)

Note, that you only want to switch to OR, because we decided to go for Space this time, so you'll need Universities and those are large 4-pop whips, without OR they're 5-6 pop whips.

In general, so for all other situations, Theocracy or Pacifism are much better, Theo because it's cheaper and because you can build 5 xp units, Pacifism because it costs no maintenance, negating the higher cost for units, so it's again cheaper than OR most of the time, and +100% of GP production are far better than 25% cheaper buildings.

 

[Todelotti]

Then I'd wait until Mansa chooses his next tech. If he chooses Music or Compass, trade immediately, but if he goes for Machinery directly, wait 'til Optics is 1T and trade then. Afterwards, start a Golden Age with the GA and switch to Buro + Pacifism. Spread your religion to the cities in which you run specialists befire, so as long as you still can build Missionaries easily through OR.

Arrghh, Optics requires Machinery (and Machinery requires Metal Casting), I overlooked it. That means, the only tech I could research right now and that doesn't anybody of the AIs have already (or almost have, like Mansa's CS) is Feudalism. I'm going to follow your plan with Feudalism instead of Optics, OK?

 

[Seraiel]

Nono. Feusalism often gets researched early ba AIs. Set your slider to 0% and make gold 'til you see what Mansa decides on. Set reseach to Buro, so the 0% research you have from Specialists. Maybe you can resesrch enough in it, so you only have to give away Music.

 

[Todelotti]

You're right, but Nidaros should get the hamlets and towns because it has the Academy. Haithabu could work the cows, stone, cottage and/or run some Scientists.

OK, that makes sense. I've corrected the tile assignment between Nidaros and Haithabu a bit.

finish the NE in time for your Golden Age with the largest possible population and food bars full. This allows you to "starve" your cities for 7 turns of the G age, running as many specialists as possible. Uppsala will obviously run maximal specialists, but think about doing the same in Haithabu and Birka.

Hm, that timing will probably become difficult. Uppsala has very few hammers and the forests around are all already chopped. To have a chance to get the NE early enough I probably need to whip Uppsala, but then I won't have maximized population.


A general economic question for this game: I'm rather used to spam cottages whereever I can from earlier games. Normally I try to build cottages on all FPs and grasslands with a minimum of absolutely necessary farms. We don't want that in this game, right? We want cottages around the capital but basically prefer farms around every other city to maximize population and specialists in order to benefit the most from REP. (In my old habit "grassland+river+FIN=cottage" I already built a cottage for Uppsala. It just has a few turns work, I can destroy it and build a farm instead.) And we will get the research beakers from the specialists instead of cottage commerce (plus we get the occasional great people). Is that the idea? I'm asking because I have to assign some free workers now and already had the finger on the cottage button again.

 

[Seraiel]

Cottages are fine, just not for the HE, NE and GT city.

 

[Todelotti]

A new Great General will join the HE city as Military Instructor, right?

 

[Seraiel]

A new Great General will join the HE city as Military Instructor, right?

If you already got a supermedic, yes.

 

[Todelotti]

Mansa finished CS and goes Feudalism now. Tech trade situation is:

- Mansa has CS + Philosophy + Metal Casting. I have Music + Compass. He would trade:

-- Philo for Music + Compass
-- CS for Music
-- CS + MC for Music + Compass

He doesn't trade CS + Philo for Music + Compass. I would put now turns into CS until he accepts this trade. That was the strategy, right?

- BurgerKing has Theo + MC, but red ("we don't want to trade just yet")

- Zara has Theo, but red ("we don't want to trade just yet")

- Giggles has nothing

- Ramesses has nothing

 

[Seraiel]

Better plan: Instead of researching deeply into CS, tech Theo, even with 2 civs having it already, then trade all 3 against CS + Philo. Like that, you get 20%+ when you research Paper, and there may be the chance for a jewish AP if Mansa builds it.

 

[kevtrev]

A general economic question for this game: I'm rather used to spam cottages whereever I can from earlier games. Normally I try to build cottages on all FPs and grasslands with a minimum of absolutely necessary farms. We don't want that in this game, right? We want cottages around the capital but basically prefer farms around every other city to maximize population and specialists in order to benefit the most from REP. (In my old habit "grassland+river+FIN=cottage" I already built a cottage for Uppsala. It just has a few turns work, I can destroy it and build a farm instead.) And we will get the research beakers from the specialists instead of cottage commerce (plus we get the occasional great people). Is that the idea? I'm asking because I have to assign some free workers now and already had the finger on the cottage button again.

Specialists give decreasing returns because each successive great person costs more GPP, while cottages give increasing returns as they mature. Riverside FIN grassland cottages are particularly good because they are food neutral and give 3 from the first turn. REP specialists are particularly good in the early game because they give additional slider-independent research whilst also generating those early GPersons we are always going to want. So go ahead and spam FIN riverside cottages, except in cities that are going to need maximum food, as Seraiel says above. The NE city wants max food for max specialists, the GT city max food to grow back from continual whipping and/or drafting, and he HE city optimal food to allow the working of all tiles.

 

[M3dge]

Guys, I am in exactly the same position as Todelotti, have won a couple of games at Monarch but also lost (or abandoned) a few more. This is such an excellent thread, I will continue to lurk and learn!

 

[Todelotti]

Guys, I am in exactly the same position as Todelotti, have won a couple of games at Monarch but also lost (or abandoned) a few more. This is such an excellent thread, I will continue to lurk and learn!

Welcome M3dge! Isn't that great how helpful the experienced players are here? And on top of that from Seraiel you learn the rule: Every single turn has the potential to screw up a whole game! After a few days you can only click on the red button with a trembling hand and in the night you wake up with a hammering heart: "OMG, didn't I forget to gift Sailing to BurgerKing?"

Edit: BTW: If you got strategic questions or comments or so that fit into the context along the game feel free to jump into the thread! I don't consider this as "my thread" or something. I can only learn from different aspects and viewpoints.

 

[Todelotti]

Specialists give decreasing returns because each successive great person costs more GPP, while cottages give increasing returns as they mature. Riverside FIN grassland cottages are particularly good because they are food neutral and give 3 from the first turn. REP specialists are particularly good in the early game because they give additional slider-independent research whilst also generating those early GPersons we are always going to want. So go ahead and spam FIN riverside cottages, except in cities that are going to need maximum food, as Seraiel says above. The NE city wants max food for max specialists, the GT city max food to grow back from continual whipping and/or drafting, and he HE city optimal food to allow the working of all tiles.

This clarifies a lot! I also just found this great post on the forum that explains the Pro and Contra of the specialist economy nicely.

 

[Seraiel]

Welcome M3dge! Isn't that great how helpful the experienced players are here? And on top of that from Seraiel you learn the rule: Every single turn has the potential to screw up a whole game! After a few days you can only click on the red button with a trembling hand and in the night you wake up with a hammering heart: "OMG, didn't I forget to gift Sailing to BurgerKing?"

Thx Todelotti, I really had to laugh about that .

Wait until you play Deity, then, you can play every turn perfect, and you can still lose .

I help gladly in this thread btw., because you're really making an effort and want to learn, so I know that the things I write aren't wasted. I'm sure pangaea thinks something similar. We did both write some really good writeups in the HoF forums, and even with getting thousands of clicks, it was more like a conversion between me and him. This thread otoh makes fun, every day something to read, to find the best moves, explaining decisions and sometimes a thx . Those are the reasons why we are so active here.

And btw Todelotti: Most I see from you shows that you really have developed, and most things look good, like i.e. the irrigation chain from the lake yesterday . Someone showing skills is also always interesting .

 

[Todelotti]

Thx Todelotti, I really had to laugh about that .

Wait until you play Deity, then, you can play every turn perfect, and you can still lose .

I help gladly in this thread btw., because you're really making an effort and want to learn, so I know that the things I write aren't wasted. I'm sure pangaea thinks something similar. We did both write some really good writeups in the HoF forums, and even with getting thousands of clicks, it was more like a conversion between me and him. This thread otoh makes fun, every day something to read, to find the best moves, explaining decisions and sometimes a thx . Those are the reasons why we are so active here.

And btw Todelotti: Most I see from you shows that you really have developed, and most things look good, like i.e. the irrigation chain from the lake yesterday . Someone showing skills is also always interesting .

Thanks for the kind words! I hope that I make progress although I have doubts everyday. But the reason for this doubt is that you and all the others always come up with new aspects and strategic thoughts of the game that I hadn't the slightest idea about. Civ 4 is overwhelmingly more complex than I thought, but that makes it interesting. I'm really curious how our game here will proceed!

Now 2 turns to Theo, will try to finish this step now...

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the kind words! I hope that I make progress although I have doubts everyday. But the reason for this doubt is that you and all the others always come up with new aspects and strategic thoughts of the game that I hadn't the slightest idea about. Civ 4 is overwhelmingly more complex than I thought, but that makes it interesting. I'm really curious how our game here will proceed!

That is what is so wonderful about this game. You can think you know almost everything about it, and then you're blown away by new information you hadn't even considered. Still happens to me, and I've become a half-decent player by now. Threads like this is also fantastic for learning. Sometimes it's good to make mistakes too, because you learn from them and hopefully don't make them again in the next game. You've made a lot of progress already, and I'm sure more will come. With this level of dedication, you'll be running rings around the Immortal AI in no time

Deity is a different beats, but it can be handled too. The step up is kind of rough though.

"Okay son, I let go of the bike and you still managed to ride without falling over. Well done!"

"Now look over here, I think you're ready for the next step in your development. This is a Formula One car..."

 

[Todelotti]

That is what is so wonderful about this game. You can think you know almost everything about it, and then you're blown away by new information you hadn't even considered. Still happens to me, and I've become a half-decent player by now. Threads like this is also fantastic for learning. Sometimes it's good to make mistakes too, because you learn from them and hopefully don't make them again in the next game. You've made a lot of progress already, and I'm sure more will come. With this level of dedication, you'll be running rings around the Immortal AI in no time

Deity is a different beats, but it can be handled too. The step up is kind of rough though.

"Okay son, I let go of the bike and you still managed to ride without falling over. Well done!"

"Now look over here, I think you're ready for the next step in your development. This is a Formula One car..."

Haha, and always I have the feeling Seraiel wants to push me into the Formula One quickly when I can barely hold the balance on a bike!


But oho! One turn before Theo something new happened. Ramesses offers a tech for the first time: Civil Service! That opens up the following trade options:

With Ramesses:

- Literature+Drama for CS+50 Gold
- Or Compass for CS+10 Gold

Not sure which one is preferable...

With Mansa then:

- Music+Compass for Philo+20 Gold

Maybe I could still invest the remaining turn into Theo and trade it for Metal Casting with Mansa. Or is it better to save Theo for a Feudalism trade for example?

Just for completeness: BurgerKing has Feudalism since this turn but it is red again. So he has Theo, Feudalism and MC, but all red (all "we don't want to trade just yet").

 

[Seraiel]

Nice. Give Ramesses Lit + Drama for CS, Mansa has both, so can't profit from this. Onceyou have Theo, trade everything you need against MC + Philo.
When you got Philo and CS, start a Golden Age with the GA and switch to REP + BURO + CASTE + Pacifism. I hope your capital got your religion, if not, get it there fast, so whip the Missionary. Sheep Crabs should also have your religion. If you 2-pop whip one Missionary, you get the 2nd one from overflow.

If you did all that, wait for advice on micro. Post screens of all cities again.