Improving on Monarch level

[kevtrev]

Hmm, I guess they get multiplied by OR and Forge again too? Suddenly a little unsure now, but I think so.

I think they don't, but I'm far from sure My guess is that Oxford production will be (base prod. * modifiers + OF) * 2 and not (base prod. + OF) * modifiers * 2, which seems very OP.

 

[Pangaea]

Haven't tested it in-game, but I actually think it will count. It would be similar to a chop. It comes in, then multipliers apply.

Let's say a base production of 20

20
+ 44 overflow
= 64
* 3 (Forge, OR, Buro, Stone)
= 192

 

[elitetroops]

Also keep in mind that when you get for instance 44 overflow into Oxford with access to Stone, those 44 turn into 88

Hmm, I guess they get multiplied by OR and Forge again too? Suddenly a little unsure now, but I think so.

Hammers don't get multipliers until they are put into a build. At that point they are multiplied, based on the type of build. Overflow hammers are converted back to base hammers, then multiplied depending on what multipliers you have for the new build.

Note that Kremlin is different. It doesn't multiply hammers, it reduces cost.

 

[Seraiel]

That doesn't change though, that the math from pangaea 2 posts above is correct.

 

[Todelotti]

The broken image links in this post and this post should be fixed now. At least I can see the images now in my second browser. Unfortunately twice again - embedded and attached - but better 2 than 0 images.

 

[Todelotti]

Hmm, that's not great. If BK has Landcraps, you gotta wait for Cannons, otherwise losses will be too high.

Would you then accept the 10-turn-peace treaty or let the war go on and just don't attack until I have cannons (which will also need around 10 turns)? Note that BurgerKing is also at war with Zara if that matters for the decision. I'm inclined to accept the peace so I don't have to worry about defense for the next turns. On the other hand declaring war again after 10 turns might hit my relationship with Ramesses with another -1 because I have declared war on his friend a second time (if that really gives a second -1, does it?).

 

[Seraiel]

I looked at those immages. Found 1 thing of minor imprtance anf one of major importance.

1. Green Hills in the capital are important too! You seem to completely ignore the production capacity of your capital. I know, theres the whip, but riverside green hills are definitely better than non riverside Cottages. This is the minor thing.

2. You don't work Specialists in your NE city! This is a big . In your case, you must work on jow you get 2 different GPs for the next GA fast! It's probably gonna be really easy, because your NE city can only work Scientists + (guessing) Artists, while your 2nd strongest GP city is Giggles ex capital, which has great amounts of Merchant and a light amount of proohet points.

3. Found something additional, which is in between the both others: Don't work Plains Hills Mines. If calculating those tiles against the whip, you actually lose 1-2 / turn by working Plains Mines.

 

[Seraiel]

Would you then accept the 10-turn-peace treaty or let the war go on and just don't attack until I have cannons (which will also need around 10 turns)? Note that BurgerKing is also at war with Zara if that matters for the decision. I'm inclined to accept the peace so I don't have to worry about defense for the next turns. On the other hand declaring war again after 10 turns might hit my relationship with Ramesses with another -1 because I have declared war on his friend a second time (if that really gives a second -1, does it?).

Stay at war, BK will probably never send a unit to you, and you get free diplo points with Zara for being at war with him while you otherwise would get a 2nd -1 from Ramesses. Just wait 'til you goz those Cannons and order Zara to attack eizver the worst city, or the most heavily defended one.

 

[Seraiel]

Don't forget, the possibility for peace doesn't go away. If BK shows up with a 30 units stack, you can still take peace.

 

[Todelotti]

1. Green Hills in the capital are important too! You seem to completely ignore the production capacity of your capital. I know, theres the whip, but riverside green hills are definitely better than non riverside Cottages. This is the minor thing.

In the meantime I work a lot more of the hills (see image). The capital has 5 green hills (no plains hills) and I have built now Windmills (WM) on the 3 riverside hills (for FIN bonus) and Mines (M) on the 2 non-riverside hills. Is that OK? Especially are 2 mines enough? It's still not a lot of hammers but I thought commerce in the capital has prio number one.

2. You don't work Specialists in your NE city! This is a big . In your case, you must work on jow you get 2 different GPs for the next GA fast! It's probably gonna be really easy, because your NE city can only work Scientists + (guessing) Artists, while your 2nd strongest GP city is Giggles ex capital, which has great amounts of Merchant and a light amount of proohet points.

Yes, I don't know why I forgot that. But I've fixed it already a lot of turns ago. The NE city is now working 2 scientists and 2 artists. The next GP will be ready in 9 turns.

BTW: What about our plan to get the second GP from Economics? We have to schedule research for Banking->Economics at some point (I guess not before Steel). Maybe it's best to wait a bit to see if Mansa is researching Banking, then trade and research Economics?

 

[kevtrev]

Haven't tested it in-game, but I actually think it will count. It would be similar to a chop. It comes in, then multipliers apply.

Let's say a base production of 20

20
+ 44 overflow
= 64
* 3 (Forge, OR, Buro, Stone)
= 192

Is this really correct? It seems excessive!

It means:

A 2-pop whip will generate 59 OF (and not 44 as I originally thought having overlooked Bureau)
Those 59 then get *3 to give 177 ?!? I repeat,

So what started out as 29 (1-pop whip - 1 ) ends up as 177 OF, or a 1:6.1 conversion ratio.

I'm gonna have to check this in World Builder...

 

[Seraiel]

Plan for Banking sounds solid.

Which tiles to work is dependent on what you currently need more. You're trying to get 3 expenisve buildings almost complete and you want your capital still have a good amount of pop after the whips, so I'd not steal the Food from it with another city and would work full or almost full hammers like you do. If I'd run out of giod tiles, I'd whip rhe buildings that are ready already, and take them out of the queue so they don't finish.

 

[Seraiel]

@ kev: I believe you didn't read the post of elite.

A 2pop-whip always gives 60 hammers, not 59. As 31 of those hammers get used in this example, it would be 29 hammers OF. If building Oxford on the next turn, those 29 hammers would be mutiplied by three.

What is added though, is the normal production of the next turn, so if that city makes 20 hammers, it would be (29 +20 hammers) *3 on the next turn.

 

[Todelotti]

I have another minor question: On the following screenshot farming the tile with the red circle seems the only reasonable way to irrigate both the corn and the wheat. (Irrigation through the city doesn't work because it is on a hill.) However, Gilgamesh built a cottage on the tile that is a village already (but still about 35 turns away from a town). I don't know if I should bulldoze the village to build a farm and what will be more worth: The 6 commerce that the village gives or the 3 additional food (= basically 1.5 free citizen) from farm + irrigated resources? I'd say Bulldoze because it gives me one specialist more which might be more valuable, especially with REP.

 

[Seraiel]

Yes, bulldoze that village. 2 allows you to hire another Specialist and that one gives the same but also .

 

[Pangaea]

Yeah, easily tear down the cottage. It's a plains tile, and you don't really want to work those anyway. I'd mine the hill that has a cottage too. Really don't like cottages on hills.

 

[Todelotti]

Finally 6 theatres are finished and we can build the Globe Theatre somewhere. We had either Birka or Uruk in mind. Birka is quite good in food supply (has a surplus of +10 atm). Uruk will probably that good or even better as well but I think it will require to farm even more of Gilgamesh's cottages. Also keep in mind that Uruk had the second Academy. We thought about to get commerce high in that city to leverage the Academy bonus, right? I'd prefer Birka for that reason. Here are screenshots of the 2 candidate cities:

 

[Seraiel]

Yes, choose Birka.

But work the grassland hamlet in Uruk. It's not only better than the plains village, it'll also profit from getting worked, unlike the other one.

 

[Todelotti]

Oh, oh, trade and diplomacy question again, hopefully some day the fog of mystery on this topic will lift...

Mansa has finished Optics (that he researched after Divine Right) now. And Zara opened up trading Optics (he already has Optics since a few turns, but it was red until now). If I want to trade something for Optics I have 2 options now:

- With Zara for Guilds or Paper
- With Mansa for Paper

We wanted to delay giving away Paper as long as possible. So, from this viewpoint trading Guilds for Optics with Zara might be the better option. On the other hand, beakerwise trading Paper is better (Optics=897 beakers, Paper=897 beakers, Guilds=1497 beakers). From diplomatic viewpoint do I gain anything by trading with Zara because I already have the +4 fair trade bonus from him? With Mansa I only have +2 fair trade. But there is also this "Shared tech discoveries" bonus. I have no clue when this bonus comes into play and why I have one with Mansa and BurgerKing but not with Zara and Ramesses because I had tech trades with everybody.

Trading screen with both look like this:

 

[Seraiel]

Tbh, I'd trade then nothing You need Optics once you want to research Astronomy, so before Physics. That are so many turns, that I would wait and see if I couldn't get it from Ramesses for some newby tech.
Doesn't matter though, blocking Paper was only oir Strategy as long as you don't have Lib, as you'll reach that soon though, you can also trade away Paper, no AI is able to steal Lib from you anymore.

Regarding diplomacy: Zara either got on friendly through the shared war, or he's willing to trade Optica because Mansa has it too. I'd advise you to read CIV Illustrated #1, that guide answers almost the complete AI behaviour, so i. E. Also why Mansa gives you the extra +2.