Improving on Monarch level

[Todelotti]

Turn 219 - 1545 AD

- Research finished for Constitution->Corporation->Assembly Line
- Asked Zara to leave Emancipation and to adopt Caste System (+200 Gold) which he did for Liberalism
- 3 turns to go in Golden Age
- Started to research Railroad now (just for the +1 hammer on mines and quarries)
- Selected 11 cities and started building Factories there. Basically the cities with best production (2 of them are building Levees but shall continue with Factories after that), see the following list:

Are 11 cities with Factories enough? I count 16 space ship parts (if I build the maximum number for each part). Seraiel mentioned that ideally all parts are finished at the same turn (to avoid possible sabotage), that means that every single part should have its own city where it is build, right? (Do they really sabotage me? They are all friendly or pleased... Oh, I already guess, when it comes to winning or losing the game they forget all friendship... )

When the Golden Age ends in 3 turns shall I change any civics? I'm in REP, Bureau, Caste, State Property and Pacifism right now.

 

[ChaosSlayer]

Turn 219 - 1545 AD
(Do they really sabotage me? They are all friendly or pleased... Oh, I already guess, when it comes to winning or losing the game they forget all friendship... )
.

In my last game, AI was Friendly and had Defense Pact with me, and he still sent over his spies to poison my cities and sabotage improvements.

 

[Pangaea]

You can build factories plus power in all cities. Later on you'll be building wealth or research everywhere, and then it's good to have all those multipliers. Get up other needed infrastructure first though. If it is then too late to do much else, I suppose you can skip it, but the benefit to factory plus power is so big that it's something you ideally want in every city for the late game.

Your civics sound fine. The only issue is whether you want to go back to OR for bonus to buildings, but Pacifism is obviously good for getting out great people quicker. If you intend to keep running specialists in many cities, sticking with Pacifism is probably best.

 

[Seraiel]

You need 1-2 Specialist espionage cities, to be able to generate enough while running a full science slider. You find the description for them at the end of CIV Illustrated #3 (signature or strategy-guides subsection) . I agree, that Cottaging everything now would be a 180, I forgot that I already advised you to Workshop everything some time ago.

 

[Tatran]

AI was Friendly and had Defense Pact with me, and he still sent over his spies to poison my cities and sabotage improvements.

I can't remember a pleased or friendly AI doing that in my games. Maybe you had one or more vassals.

 

[ChaosSlayer]

I can't remember a pleased or friendly AI doing that in my games. Maybe you had one or more vassals.

Nope, I haven't made vassals for a long time since I found that their culture stick around in conquered cities and annoys the hell out of me.
I get enemy spies at Pleased ALL THE TIME. But last time Friendly was a first

 

[Seraiel]

I just looked at the pictures again and found that you are almost making 2k / turn .

Very nice .

 

[Todelotti]

I just looked at the pictures again and found that you are almost making 2k / turn .

Very nice .

That YOU say this is special! Thanks!

 

[reddishrecue]

You're also making a lot of culture. Congrats on that also.

 

[Todelotti]

You're also making a lot of culture. Congrats on that also.

Thanks! But that's more by accident, I think, I never took really care of culture in this game.


Hey, even in the late game there are tough decisions to make (at least tough for me and when aiming for a competitive finish date)! I always thought late game is just boring research and clicking turn by turn. But no!

Now, I'm in the last Golden Age turn and have to decide whether to switch civics or not. Basically the decision is only between:

- Either staying in Pacifism
- Or switching to Organized Religion

(I'll stay in REP, Bureau, Caste, State Property.)

Some points:

- Upkeep for OR is higher: The civics screen shows a difference of 46 Gold between Paci and OR. Does that already include the 1 Gold per military unit? If not, I have to count the costs for around 40 units and then the upkeep difference is small.

- I will get for sure two more GP. But this will most likely be the case with and without Pacifism. Without Pacifism it will just take more turns but happen before the game ends. It's hard to tell for me if I can get more GP. I will continue to run specialists in the NE and the GT city, but I'm not sure if they will create another GP.

It would be ideal if I could stay a bit more in Pacifism and then switch to OR when I clearly see that there won't be any GPs anymore from running specialists before the game ends or latest when I start building the space ship parts. But the Anarchy! Which brings me to this point:

Cristo Redentor is actually a good wonder for space games, as I learnt in my last game, so probably not a bad idea to go for relatively early Radio.

Cristo Redentor, is it worth it and should I try to build it somewhere (maybe Ironworks city)? The option to switch later to OR sounds attractive. Also changing from REP to Universal Suffrage when research is done and I start building the space parts seems to be a good move, doesn't it? On the other hand if I manage to start a last Golden Age (which is not 100% sure) I have a last opportunity to change civics anyway and then the CR hammer investment would be a waste.

Another question:

...Three Gorges Dam...

3GD needs 1750 to build. A Coal Plant needs 150 . So, if I have 12 or more cities with Factories that I want to supply with power the 3GD needs less in total. After Pangaea's suggestion to build factories almost everywhere I have 16 cities now that will get factories. So, is it better to build the 3GD instead of Coal Plants (maybe just 1 Coal Plant in the city that builds the 3GD itself to speed that up)? All other cities could build wealth/research instead of building coal plants. Plus the benefit of less health problems of course. (Somehow I have the feeling I'm overlooking something in the equation...)

BTW: My last GP who was born was a Great Engineer. Is it worth it to spend him for rushing the Cristo Redentor or the 3GD? I'm still aiming for a last Golden Age and I have a GM and a GS and hope for a Great Artist within the next turns (which is not sure, the GP pool is mixed). But I think we discussed that already that I can use the GE from Fusion for the GP quartet. In that case my current GE would be free to use for something.

And a minor question:

I still have a few mines on hills that I can convert to windmills. Once I have Railroad is converting to a windmill still the best decision or is railroading the mine for the +1 the better improvement then?

 

[Seraiel]

Now, I'm in the last Golden Age turn and have to decide whether to switch civics or not. Basically the decision is only between:

- Either staying in Pacifism
- Or switching to Organized Religion

(I'll stay in REP, Bureau, Caste, State Property.)

Some points:

- Upkeep for OR is higher: The civics screen shows a difference of 46 Gold between Paci and OR. Does that already include the 1 Gold per military unit? If not, I have to count the costs for around 40 units and then the upkeep difference is small.

- I will get for sure two more GP. But this will most likely be the case with and without Pacifism. Without Pacifism it will just take more turns but happen before the game ends. It's hard to tell for me if I can get more GP. I will continue to run specialists in the NE and the GT city, but I'm not sure if they will create another GP.

It would be ideal if I could stay a bit more in Pacifism and then switch to OR when I clearly see that there won't be any GPs anymore from running specialists before the game ends or latest when I start building the space ship parts. But the Anarchy! Which brings me to this point:

The costs of Pacifism are shown without the extra +1 for every military unit, but if your cities are large, you got a great amount of free units, so it won't matter. You can delete all military except 1 garrison for each city, as the AIs are friendly to you anyhow, so nobody even could plot to declare war against you.
Pacfisim is the better civic imo., because it's cheaper, and because more GP are more important than speeding up a few Factories by a few %.

Cristo Redentor, is it worth it and should I try to build it somewhere (maybe Ironworks city)? The option to switch later to OR sounds attractive. Also changing from REP to Universal Suffrage when research is done and I start building the space parts seems to be a good move, doesn't it? On the other hand if I manage to start a last Golden Age (which is not 100% sure) I have a last opportunity to change civics anyway and then the CR hammer investment would be a waste.

Christo Redentor is definitely worth it. You cannot rush-buy SS-parts though. It still can be good to switch to US for the bonus on towns though. Ideally, you would want to have a Workshop pre-built until 1T before finish on every tile, if so, forget about US at all.

Another question:

3GD needs 1750 to build. A Coal Plant needs 150 . So, if I have 12 or more cities with Factories that I want to supply with power the 3GD needs less in total. After Pangaea's suggestion to build factories almost everywhere I have 16 cities now that will get factories. So, is it better to build the 3GD instead of Coal Plants (maybe just 1 Coal Plant in the city that builds the 3GD itself to speed that up)? All other cities could build wealth/research instead of building coal plants. Plus the benefit of less health problems of course. (Somehow I have the feeling I'm overlooking something in the equation...)

Coal plants are so cheap, that they easily pay back their cost even before the 3GD is even available. You can build it additionally if you want, but it probably doesn't matter too much. Your cities will be a bit larger due to the the 3GD frees, but such things only matter in HoF games.

BTW: My last GP who was born was a Great Engineer. Is it worth it to spend him for rushing the Cristo Redentor or the 3GD? I'm still aiming for a last Golden Age and I have a GM and a GS and hope for a Great Artist within the next turns (which is not sure, the GP pool is mixed). But I think we discussed that already that I can use the GE from Fusion for the GP quartet. In that case my current GE would be free to use for something.

And a minor question:

I still have a few mines on hills that I can convert to windmills. Once I have Railroad is converting to a windmill still the best decision or is railroading the mine for the +1 the better improvement then?

I'd rush one of the hit-wonders with the GE if it's sure that nobody competes for Christo Redentor.

And you should have Windmills on all tiles for the bonus, but pre-built mines in the 3 cities that build the engines and the stasis chamber.

 

[Todelotti]

Turn 236 - 1630 AD

- Research finished for: Railroad, Radio, Medicine, Combustion
- Traded for Artillery with Mansa (I had to give him Communism+Biology, quite an expensive rip-off deal...)
- Researching Industrialism now
- Christo Redentor built
- Factories and Coal Plants in most cities built, had to build some Harbors/Grocers/Aqueducts (+ a hospital in the capital) to fight the massive smog in some shrinking larger cities. Used a Great Merchant to get 1700 gold from a trade mission as the wallet was quickly dropping during the factory/plant building phase. Now I'm building mainly Wealth again.
- Got a Great Artist, so I have GA+GS+GM for the last Golden Age when I get the GE from Fusion. In addition I have 2xGS + 1xGE for something else.
- Spy mission to bring Mansa from Emancipation to Caste was successful. However, Ramesses and Zara are in Emancipation as well.

One immediate question: Shock after I had built the first well! Oil gives +2 unhealth in addition to +2 unhealth from coal when the city has a factory! I thought I get +2 unhealth for coal or oil but not for each of them... Now, I'm wondering: Do I need Oil for the space race? It doesn't improve hammers for anything and is only needed for military stuff, right? If it's not needed it seems better to get rid of the oil again, just to improve health. I could build a fort over the well in order to destroy it. Or is it perhaps OK to trade or gift it to somebody?

And another question about a spy mission: Does it matter to which foreign city I move my spy to influence civics? I just chose Mansa's city that is closest to my border.

Current tech tree:

 

[Pangaea]

What you discovered about oil is why we don't improve oil resources in space games, or alternatively improve it, but not road it. You can destroy your own improvements (but not roads), so that is an option, or you can trade it away. Or replace it with a workshop. Oil isn't needed for space, only for more advanced military units and ships (iirc).

You can check on the espionage what city it is cheapest to use. Check the various costs. It tends to be the closest city, but trade route and religious bonuses can affect it.

 

[Todelotti]

What you discovered about oil is why we don't improve oil resources in space games, or alternatively improve it, but not road it. You can destroy your own improvements (but not roads), so that is an option, or you can trade it away. Or replace it with a workshop. Oil isn't needed for space, only for more advanced military units and ships (iirc).

You can check on the espionage what city it is cheapest to use. Check the various costs. It tends to be the closest city, but trade route and religious bonuses can affect it.

OK, thanks for the explanations! I've replayed the last 2 turns in order to NOT build a well and selected another city for the spy mission that was a bit cheaper.

Managing health and now also happiness - while still 2 civs are in emancipation and after Fur and Ivory dropped as happy resource - is quite a tough fight in some cities.

I'm producing Spy buildings (Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau, Jail) in a city now and I'm running a spy specialist there to maybe get enough spy points against Ramesses.

I had a lucky quest and event:

One was to find the "Holy Mountain" and settle "close" to the montain. To locate the Holy Mountain I had to build one temple and a Jewish synagogue more (14 in total were needed but I already had a lot). I didn't know what "close" actually meant (in BFC?) and to be on the safe side I've settled just one tile from the mountain. But the location isn't that bad: It has the double deer, a copper and one turn after settling when I finished Industrialism also an aluminium tile in BFC popped up. Some workers have a bit new work now. Reward from the quest: +1 in every city which is quite nice at the moment!

The other event was the "High Level Spy":

I selected the second option. Although 459 Gold are quite expensive I thought the Great Spy is useful:

- Either for using him to start the Golden Age later. I could for example use the Great Merchant for a trade mission instead. That would basically just earn 1700-459 Gold.

- Or I could use the Great Engineer from Fusion for something else. I don't know what, however (Rush building? Bulbing a tech?)

- Or one of the Great Scientist for light bulbing.

- Or I could build Scotland Yard in my new Spy city.

What would you suggest to do?

Another question: Mansa is researching Rocketry right now (13 turns). Will he trade it? Somewhere it was mentioned that the AI never trades techs that unlock a space ship part. Does that also apply to Rocketry which doesn't unlock a space ship part directly but the Apollo Project?

 

[Todelotti]

Turn 244 - 1670 AD

- Research finished for: Industrialism, Plastics, Computers (2 turns of Computers bulbed with 2 Great Scientists)
- Researching Superconductors now
- Aluminium connected
- Rock N Roll rush built with my GE. (Would really like the others to hurry a bit with research so that someone builds Broadway and I can trade a happy resource. But they even don't have Electricity yet. Thinking about trading it for a few bucks.)
- I've skipped to build the Three Gorges Dam because it can only be built in a city on a river (makes sense somehow) but the only reasonable city on a river with enough production capacity is my capital where I prefer to run research non-stop due to the huge beaker boni the capital gets. All other possible cities would need more than 25 turns to finish the 3GD. I have to find other ways to improve health (maybe researching Genetics earlier than planned).
- Mansa returned to Emancipation again. All 3 rival civs are in Emancipation now. 1 or 2 citizens refuse to work now in 2 or 3 cities. I've built some cheap happiness stuff (theatres, temples) to fix the problem partially. I have enough spy points against Mansa to try another conversion after his civics change cool down.

Questions:

- Will the "We demand emancipation" unhappiness increase more? I see that there is apparently a dependency on the number of civs that are in emancipation and on the size of the city. Is there also a dependency on the duration the other civs are in emancipation already, maybe 1 unhappy face more per 10 turns or something like that?

 

[Anysense]

It depends on the city size and the number of civs running emancipation. This is warlords, but it should be the same in BTS.
30 turns earlier it was the same with the same number of civs in emancipation, so it sholud not depend on time.
May be penalty depends on era, like e.g. war weariness.

Spoiler :

 

[Seraiel]

- I've skipped to build the Three Gorges Dam because it can only be built in a city on a river (makes sense somehow) but the only reasonable city on a river with enough production capacity is my capital where I prefer to run research non-stop due to the huge beaker boni the capital gets. All other possible cities would need more than 25 turns to finish the 3GD. I have to find other ways to improve health (maybe researching Genetics earlier than planned).

Producing Research gets multiplied by production modifiers, so Forge and Factory. Your high multipliers for research are mainly -bound, so you imo don't have to worry, as all your cities have the same production modifiers, except that your capital has the Buro bonus on top, but that one would also work when building the 3GD.

And sry to say that, but building Theaters and Temples is worse to switching the AIs via Spies while having 1-2 Specialist-espionage-cities. Do you got any problems with the setup, or why aren't you switching everybody every 5T? You can btw. also switch someone's civics via espionage while the 5T timer still runs, espionage simply overwrites it.

 

[Todelotti]

And sry to say that, but building Theaters and Temples is worse to switching the AIs via Spies while having 1-2 Specialist-espionage-cities. Do you got any problems with the setup, or why aren't you switching everybody every 5T? You can btw. also switch someone's civics via espionage while the 5T timer still runs, espionage simply overwrites it.

Hm, I probably started too late with a spy city. It has Courthouse, Jail, Security Bureau and Intelligence Agency, is running 1 spy specialist and produces 52 spy points per turn now, focussed on Ramesses atm who has 311 spy points in total. I need almost 900 spy points for his city that is cheapest in required spy points to influence civics. I guess I should have 2 spy cities, maybe with Scotland Yard and running a lot more than just 1 spy specialist and maybe something else I don't know about to be able to switch 3 civs that often.

All 3 civs need an average of over 800 spy points each for a conversion. I have a chance of 55% to succeed, that means roughly every second try will fail. So, I would need around 3 * 800 * 2 = 4800 spy points per 5 turns or almost 1000 points per turn if I really should switch everybody every 5T, as you said. How would that be possible? The 4 mentioned spy buildings allow for 7 spy specialist slots. If I could use them all and had Scotland Yard I could produce exactly 200 spy points per turn. Or 400 points if I had 2 such cities. I neither have Scotland Yard anywhere nor a city that can afford to run 7 spy specialists. Do I miss perhaps some important building/wonder to boost spy point production? Or my calculation is wrong, most likely it is...

Good to know that I don't have to wait for the 5T cool down. I'll try to convert Mansa with the points I have against him.

 

[rah]

Do I miss perhaps some important building/wonder to boost spy point production?

While I've never used it, there's always the slider.

 

[Seraiel]

Hm, I probably started too late with a spy city. It has Courthouse, Jail, Security Bureau and Intelligence Agency, is running 1 spy specialist and produces 52 spy points per turn now, focussed on Ramesses atm who has 311 spy points in total. I need almost 900 spy points for his city that is cheapest in required spy points to influence civics. I guess I should have 2 spy cities, maybe with Scotland Yard and running a lot more than just 1 spy specialist and maybe something else I don't know about to be able to switch 3 civs that often.

All 3 civs need an average of over 800 spy points each for a conversion. I have a chance of 55% to succeed, that means roughly every second try will fail. So, I would need around 3 * 800 * 2 = 4800 spy points per 5 turns or almost 1000 points per turn if I really should switch everybody every 5T, as you said. How would that be possible? The 4 mentioned spy buildings allow for 7 spy specialist slots. If I could use them all and had Scotland Yard I could produce exactly 200 spy points per turn. Or 400 points if I had 2 such cities. I neither have Scotland Yard anywhere nor a city that can afford to run 7 spy specialists. Do I miss perhaps some important building/wonder to boost spy point production? Or my calculation is wrong, most likely it is...

Good to know that I don't have to wait for the 5T cool down. I'll try to convert Mansa with the points I have against him.

1. When you fail a spy-mission, no gets subtracted.

2. You definitely need to work all Spy Specialist slots to get enough , 800 / city seems very high to me though. It's best when you take a city for those missions that is near to your palace. Spreading your religion to it also reduces the cost, if the AI runs a different religion, having the holy-shrine to the religion gives another discount, and having a TR with the city again gives 20%. Also, you must not forget that Spys that are stationary have another 50% bonus, so you'd never need more than 1200 every 5T, with those tactics even less.