[GS] Inca Discussion Thread

[gozon]

I was re-watching the First Look and noticed that when a Builder creates a Qhapaq Ñan on a Mountain tile, it creates entrances/exits in all directions of that Mountain, so it seems that it'll be quite possible to access a tile that is completely surrounded by Mountains...

View attachment 512677

p.s.: Sorry if anyone had already confirmed this on a comment here... I've read a lot of them, but not all... It's hard keeping up with you guys...

This makes it a stronger version of the tunnel? I believe tunnel entrances can only be built adjacent to where the builder is?

Does this also mean Inca is the only civ that can access the legendary +6 science campus

 

[jddods]

You have to play a hand the map deals you

Yeah nah, reroll.

 

[steveg700]

Wouldnt you say that non-Europeans and women in history being reduced to quotas is more likely a result of the biases of the often male European historians as opposed to the actual context of the characters in question.

Actually that's exactly what it is.

I agree bias plays a huge role in terms of what counts as "accomplishment." The problem is that due to sexism, many accomplished women were never even allowed to be leaders, even though they would have been great. This forces a game like Civ to dig deep to find females who actually ruled (though they have no problem using Ghandi), and then among that small population find those who ruled *well*.

Well, the nations of Europe certainly had plenty of global impact on the world. So, European civ's lend themselves to heavier representation as civ's. Of course every civ game will include Rome, Greece, England, France, and Spain. Their continental commonality should disqualify them regardless of their achievements? Doing so is just the inverse of applying quotas.

And there are more accomplished men in positions of power than women in history. Certainly in both cases of geography and gender that can be attributed to being blessed with privileges and opportunities--accesses to animal and material resources, social injustices--but there's a difference between calling something unfair and calling it untrue. For the goal of inclusiveness, accomplishment is set aside, and civ's that scratched out a tribal existence are included, as are leaders without much notability.

Of course, if Rome, Greece, England, France, and Spain are more-or-less shoe-ins, we could probably do without the likes of Georgia or Hungary, but then that runs into a whole different arc of unfair exclusion.

 

[steveg700]

Sure, but I don't find Canada boring because its bonus is crap - I find it boring because a civ that rests entirely on being able to bring useless tiles up to more or less the same standard as normal tiles just isn't interesting. The civ's not exploring anything very new design-wise, in the AI's hands it's just another bunch of cities the human player will have no interest in, and in multiplayer - and if city quality factored into AI targeting decisions - it's just emphasising the solitaire nature of Civ since no one else will compete for your stuff (though at least mountains are desirable for some things where tundra isn't).

Well, Canada settles tundra not so much for the ability to farm there, but to get double generation of strategic resources up there.

Not that I'm a huge fan of the civ, but their ability to better profit from emergencies does seem to encourage interaction.

 

[Zaarin]

we could probably do without the likes of Georgia or Hungary

We can also argue whether Georgia is really European or not; at the very least it's ambiguous. Or we could cut it and include Armenia instead next time...

 

[Cuneiform]

I was re-watching the First Look and noticed that when a Builder creates a Qhapaq Ñan on a Mountain tile, it creates entrances/exits in all directions of that Mountain, so it seems that it'll be quite possible to access a tile that is completely surrounded by Mountains...

View attachment 512677

p.s.: Sorry if anyone had already confirmed this on a comment here... I've read a lot of them, but not all... It's hard keeping up with you guys...

I'm not sure that's true.

If you check out other parts of the video there are plenty of examples of Qhapaq Nan where the mountain tiles have just 1 entrance/exit.

 

[ferretbacon]

We can also argue whether Georgia is really European or not; at the very least it's ambiguous. Or we could cut it and include Armenia instead next time...

But then who would Tamar lead?

 

[steveg700]

To be fair, a lot of women who ruled successfully in their own right were among the best rulers their civ had--because they had to be twice the ruler a man would be just to hold onto the throne in the first place. The problem is that the opportunity to get to the throne in the first place was a major barrier in most cultures, varying from 100% impossible (France, the Holy Roman Empire until Maria Theresa's father changed the inheritance laws to enThatsure his dynasty stayed in power) to extremely difficult (most of the world) to unlikely but not beyond the realm of possibility (the Maya, Ancient Egypt, England).

That's a fair point. So, do you think in history that we had some leaders whose transformative accomplishments should be ranked up there with a Caesar or Napoleon (or higher, even), denied their credit due to historical bias?

We can also argue whether Georgia is really European or not; at the very least it's ambiguous. Or we could cut it and include Armenia instead next time...

Well, we should really figure that out! If they're European, they become inherently boring.

 

[Zaarin]

But then who would Tamar lead?

If the latest bout of memes is accurate, the Noongar.

That's a fair point. So, do you think in history that we had some leaders whose transformative accomplishments should be ranked up there with a Caesar or Napoleon (or higher, even), denied their credit due to historical bias?

An interesting question. I think there's a certain level where a leader, regardless of disadvantages, gets credit--you'll notice even the male-dominated histories of 18th and 19th centuries couldn't praise Elizabeth I or Catherine the Great enough, for example. But I certainly think there are leaders who are better than they've been generally given credit for (among English monarchs, King John, Richard II, and Mary Tudor have all gone up in historians' estimations, while conversely Henry II has gone down--also see Seondeok, who was regarded positively by her contemporaries but vilified by the Joseon historians). I certainly think that if succession laws had been fairer, we doubtless would have as many women who could stand alongside Caesar as men.

 

[Tchuli]

I'm not sure that's true.

If you check out other parts of the video there are plenty of examples of Qhapaq Nan where the mountain tiles have just 1 entrance/exit.

Okay, so I'm watching again...
I've seen a few examples where it had only one way in/out, but the Mountain itself was surrounded by other Mountains... So I guess these doesn't count.

At 33s, I've seen one that appears to have only one way in/out, but has 3 available tiles... So you may be onto something.
But at 1m04s, when they show the Builder creating a Qhapaq Ñan, he definitely creates, at least, 2 entrances on that Mountain.

So I guess it's possible that it's only a graphical thing... And since the icon stands above the whole tile, I guess it's one more thing pointing in the direction that it's accessible by any way that you want.

 

[DWilson]

This kind of agenda would be fun if the AI was better at conquering. Imagine the Inca Empire expanding following the mountains, taking anything on its path. I would like to see this kind of guided conquest, where the AI is interested on a specific part of the map, then once they got what they want, they're cool. England is another that have potential but in practice doesn't work, it would be fun to see she protecting her own continent and attacking other continents into she have a foothold. The AI incompetence and loyalty make it impossible to ever happen.

Seriously. I've tried gifting her cities on my continents to maintain our friendship, and even in remote areas she manages to lose them. She needs better loyalty bonuses.

I live on the Canadian border and I only want Canada to be included so I can conquer Toronto and rename it "Red Wings". Because I'm petty like that.

Ahh, so you're a man of good taste.

 

[God of Kings]

It would have been great if Incan buildings were immune to earthquakes.

The Incan method of dry masonry by cutting and fitting stones tightly without mortar is very earthquake-resistant (and Peru is very seismically active), much more so than using mortar. Why? During an earthquake, the individual stones in Incan structures are allowed to jiggle but stay in place afterwards.

The Incas probably independently came up with mortar but decided against it after seeing an earthquake.

 

[Pietato]

It would have been great if Incan buildings were immune to earthquakes.

The Incan method of dry masonry by cutting and fitting stones tightly without mortar is very earthquake-resistant (and Peru is very seismically active), much more so than using mortar. Why? During an earthquake, the individual stones in Incan structures are allowed to jiggle but stay in place afterwards.

The Incas probably independently came up with mortar but decided against it after seeing an earthquake.

They are...because there are no earthquakes

 

[God of Kings]

They are...because there are no earthquakes

This is a missed opportunity by Firaxis not to include earthquakes. If there were earthquakes, the Incas would also have buildings immune to earthquakes.

Many cities around the world throughout history have been ravaged by earthquakes after all.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Balance them around making dynamic decisions rather than fixed notions of "what's most effective". Balanced around notions of choices rather than rote scripts of beelining the same behaviors every game.

Take notions of what's effective and not effective, and give players cause to re-examine.

I agree firmly with this. Game systems should be roughly balanced so that the best choice in any given circumstance depends on what's going on in that particular game, either based on your personal preferences or the opportunities presented by the map.

My point was that when Deity players identify something as being always weak, then that option could use a boost. Similarly, if another choice always speeds up victory, it's suitable for a nerf. I think that improves overall gameplay for everyone. Even if you want to play the "weak" choice sometimes for fun, wouldn't it be just as fun if it improved your empire a little bit more than it does now? I don't see how that's anything more than a win-win.

By never, I mean since Civ 1, the AI has always cheated at the higher difficulties and never posed any real or meaningful challenge. Sure, I can beat the game at Deity, but what's the point? It gets very gamey in order to beat the massive bonuses the AI gets and personally I get more enjoyment out of just playing some relaxing games on Prince/King/Emperor.

I'm glad you're enjoying Civ 6 and find it similar to previous iterations of Civ, but I don't.

I'm a huge fan of the series. I've played them all and Civ 5 was my favourite. Do you think I'm disappointed in Civ 6 because I don't like the number 6? No. It's because Civ 6, so far, does not offer the type of gameplay that I enjoyed from Civs 1 to 5.

I'm okay with that. I'm happy to wait for Civ 7 and see what it brings. But I'd be even happier if they made some adjustments to Civ 6 in GS to bring it more in line with the experience that was provided by Civs 1 through 5, which for me was a real and meaningful challenge which made playing the game a fun experience, win or lose.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Macchu Picchu wonder video tomorrow? Any guesses?

 

[KnightModern]

investing in food to get more people is a trap that distracts you from other things that have a more meaningful impact on the scientific, cultural and military prowess of your empire.

I tdon't think we need to focus on food if we play as ainca

in fact, we need to focus on production
you want terrace farm to be built beside mountain so that you could work at the mountain instead of hills and still got some food for growth

or build them beside fresh water & aqueduct, more production

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Does this also mean Inca is the only civ that can access the legendary +6 science campus

I'm sure I got that with Australia once. Either way I don't think you need a tunnel to build one.

 

[Pietato]

People complained that earthquakes give no positive...

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Macchu Picchu wonder video tomorrow? Any guesses?

Fingers crossed.