Inca Empire filter for the Hall of Fame Tables

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well personally I think there should be an Incan/Huts HoF, and a non Incan no huts HoF. But the Huts matter to me more than the Incans. Yes the Incans can get a very strong position just off of their warrior, but getting stuff like Tachies turn 17 HBR from a hut is really what skewers the tables.

While I 100% agree with Zx Zero Zx's comments above, I've tried to get Tribal Village banned before, but the HoF Staff "vetoed" the idea saying that Huts will never be banned. It seems that the HoF Staff will not even consider a single filter on the Main HoF Web Page that is really needed; though they are willing to make some improvements to the Ad-Hoc Query's filter though I have doubts that would satisfy the players that want the Inca filter.

If the Main HoF Web Page is left exactly as it is, only players of Inca games will use it, because in the coming months large numbers of Inca games will played taking the top positions of every single Monarch to Deity table. Non-Inca players will use the best alternative available, because the official Main HoF Web Page will be flooded by Inca games most of which will float high above all the pathetic in comparison non-Inca games.

In the past, I've always played a non-Inca Civ in tables where there was any possiblility of getting the #1 position. Only when there was virtually no chance that a non-Inca Civ could get the #1 slot would I resort to using the Inca Civ. For example the Deity Duel Conquest Quick-Marathon slots and the Deity Duel Conquest Marathon slot. Now, I am not sure, I will continue to play in this manner.

Via a Quechua rush, Diety Inca can quickly dominate the AI Civs. As a result, one can easily win 10 Deity Inca games in the time it takes to win a single Deity non-Inca game. Also, in a Deity Inca game, one can make many mistakes and still win quite easily, whereas with a Diety non-Inca game, only a few mistakes can be made and still win the game.

My conclusion is the Official HoF Web Page will decline in use, if an Inca filter for it is not implemented. Sometimes, the status quo needs to give in to new ways of doing things. This applies to the Official HoF Web Page.

I have been using the Ad-Hoc Query more and more lately. Maybe an adequate solution can be found there and allow also most any way of filtering the HoF database. However, if it is improved to do nearly any kind of filtering, it will be used to the exclusive of the "brittle" (inflexible/unfilterable) Official Main HoF Table until virtually no one uses the "official" HoF tables per se.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Ozbenno]

It seems that the HoF Staff will not even consider a single filter on the Main HoF Web Page that is really needed

I haven't yet seen anything in this thread that shows to me that this is really needed. A majority of the people who have voted in the poll are against the idea and while I do understand the point you are trying to make the results of the poll show me that it really isn't needed.

I don't buy the argument that people will stop using the HoF page because Inca dominate the higher standings. This has pretty much always been the case. When I first came on the scene many moons ago, pretty much every Deity table filled was using Inca (Moonsinger especially). It didn't stop me from submitting games then and it won't in the future. I (and many other who submit) don't play to have #1 slots in the table and it doesn't really worry me who has those slots and which legal civ they used to get them. I will submit games for the gauntlets, challenges or just for fun.

I respect that you see this in a different light but I do think that the majority of people who are interested in submitting games to the HoF don't see this as a big idea.

 

[neilmeister]

If the Main HoF Web Page is left exactly as it is, only players of Inca games will use it, because in the coming months large numbers of Inca games will played taking the top positions of every single Monarch to Deity table.

Who is going to play all of these 'large numbers of Inca games'?

Inca have been very, very good for 7 years. If someone is only noticing now, then do not worry about them beating the HoF slots, they don't sound too smart.

If you intend to play all those Inca games, then this is the most laughable threat I have heard in ages.

I have been using the Ad-Hoc Query more and more lately.

So you can already see all the information you need?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The HoF table is only about the fastest games in Civ4, played within the rules. (not always as implemented, but as intended)

Why does it matter if the top games are all Inca?

If every single top game on the HoF is Inca, why is that bad?

Its great for players that prefer to play the Inca Civ, but it is still great for them, even if there is an Inca filter, because they are unlikely to turn it on.

Its not so good for players that prefer to play non-Inca Civs and also compete for the #1 position. Many tables were already only challenge-able by Inca games, before the new wave of exploitative (exploit-like) techniques and strategies vastly extended the reach of the Inca Civ into every table. Such players are forced to make a decision, ignore the Official HOF Tables (use the Ad-Hoc Query exclusively to filter out Inca), play non-Inca Civs and forget about aspiring to be #1 in a table, or join the Inca crowd, flooding the HoF with "exploitative" Inca games.

So, if the HoF staff buckles and implements the filter I want, then they will be able to argue against any future filter requests.

You mentioned several filters. I'm not sure which filter you want. Let's play devil's advocate and "unfairly" assume the filter you want is Inca filter.

Yes, the HoF can restrict (if they wanted to) filters on the Official HoF Tables to only be those that match a HoF rule like the ban on Inca Civ in EQM games, which would be a simple filter in the official HoF Tables as opposed to a ban.

All other filters would have to be implemented in the Ad-Hoc Query or something similar to it that has the HoF arranged similar to how the Main HoF Web Page is arranged. They would never be implemented in the official Main HoF Web Page, unless it matched a HoF (unlikely as only one or two would match ever, unless new HoF rules are enacted).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

I haven't yet seen anything in this thread that shows to me that this is really needed. A majority of the people who have voted in the poll are against the idea and while I do understand the point you are trying to make the results of the poll show me that it really isn't needed.

Of course the tab isn't needed. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT!!!

It doesn't matter if a majority of people want the tab. As a courtesy to some of the HoF players who play more than any other players, such as myself. It would be a very nice option to have available.

I think that calling the filter a step toward banning Inca is ridiculous. Why? Because Inca will NEVER be banned.

So as a courtesy to players like myself, I think the HoF staff should put in the tab.

Clearly this won't happen and I had accepted this to be the situation both before this thread was started and now as I post this. I have only commented because I find some of the comments in this thread very aggravating.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Who is going to play all of these 'large numbers of Inca games'?

WastinTime submitted 12 Deity Inca #1 games this past update and seems to have an easy time doing it based on his comments in the HoF thread update thread. I honestly don't know whether he will continue to do it in future updates, but its possible that he will.

I may decide to switch from playing almost exclusively non-Inca games to Inca games just to see how things are on the "other side of the road".

Many other players may join in the Inca Civ playing fest, and you will see large numbers of Inca games, especially when more than one player completes for the same #1 slot.

My point is the players will adapt to whatever the HoF Staff decides to do or not do. Its just that some adaptations may be more desirable than others. I don't find the HoF becoming the "Hall of Lame Inca Wins" as a particularly desirable adaptation, but it will still be fun to play.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[neilmeister]

Awesome, then it should improve all the dates in the HoF.
Thats what the HoF is all about, isn't it?

 

[Ozbenno]

Of course the tab isn't needed. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT!!!

I do think that it is the point sorry. There has already been talk of no-huts check boxes, no-barb check boxes etc. These are all, to my mind, equally as valid as no-Inca.

We only have a limited amount of resources (there is never enough time) and cannot make all the changes that would be nice to have. We have to weigh up what is necessary and go ahead with that.

We have made changes to the layout of the site before and won't rule it out in the future but only for things we feel are necessary.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I haven't yet seen anything in this thread that shows to me that this is really needed. A majority of the people who have voted in the poll are against the idea and while I do understand the point you are trying to make the results of the poll show me that it really isn't needed.

If no one voted Yes, I would agree with you that the Inca filter is not needed.

However, nearly half of the respondents did vote Yes and disagree with your conclusion the Inca filter is not needed. They would not have voted Yes, if they thought otherwise. Your decision is a disappointment to them.

The Inca filter is needed, because the HOF will be swapped by Inca games in the future which affects the enjoyment of a significant number of players as evidenced by the poll. I really don't believe that Inca players will be bothered that much by the Inca filter whose default setting is OFF and thus has presumably little effect on their enjoyment; nearly all of them know they are playing an "exploitative" Civ, otherwise the EQM wouldn't ban the Inca Civ.

I don't buy the argument that people will stop using the HoF page because Inca dominate the higher standings. This has pretty much always been the case. When I first came on the scene many moons ago, pretty much every Deity table filled was using Inca (Moonsinger especially). It didn't stop me from submitting games then and it won't in the future. I (and many other who submit) don't play to have #1 slots in the table and it doesn't really worry me who has those slots and which legal civ they used to get them. I will submit games for the gauntlets, challenges or just for fun.

Are you talking about the time that the HoF showed only the best of the Quick, Normal, Epic and Marathon speed games? Those usually were Marathon games and Marathon games were quite often Inca games.

If you look right now, there are probably many more non-Inca #1 games than Inca #1 games, but I'm sure the trend will be strongly Inca games in the future, unless the Inca filter is implemented.

I used the Ad-Hoc Query on every single HoF Deity table (all 9 * 6 * 4 = 208 tables) and I can tell you that there really aren't that many tables with Inca as the #1 game yet.

I respect that you see this in a different light but I do think that the majority of people who are interested in submitting games to the HoF don't see this as a big idea.

Right, they wouldn't care whether or not the Inca filter exists, so why not give it to those players that do care and want it? Those players that don't want it, can simply keep the Inca filter in is default OFF state and will notice no change, except perhaps fewer Inca game submissions from those players that prefer non-Inca games anyway.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[neilmeister]

What is surprising to me is that you already knew you lost, before you started this poll, yet you still did it.

To claim the moral high ground, that the staff have somehow disappointed the players is a bit rich.

 

[vranasm]

I do think that it is the point sorry. There has already been talk of no-huts check boxes, no-barb check boxes etc. These are all, to my mind, equally as valid as no-Inca.

We only have a limited amount of resources (there is never enough time) and cannot make all the changes that would be nice to have. We have to weigh up what is necessary and go ahead with that.

We have made changes to the layout of the site before and won't rule it out in the future but only for things we feel are necessary.

this contradicts a bit the answer to my question on page 1 though.

I can totally see from where this comes from since I am software engineer myself.... but honestly the counterarguments to STW demand are somewhat weak.

And I would like no huts filter added too... It's a little bit annoying to compete with games which has 100% positive results from huts for casual player.

I certainly appreciate that the Challenger series puts strict restrictions on overpowered things in Civ IV (Inca, huts, events), but if we started to go that way we should not stop.

 

[WastinTime]

I may decide to switch from playing almost exclusively non-Inca games to Inca games just to see how things are on the "other side of the road".

I was just like you, come to the dark side! The quechua seem powerful compared to the warrior, but that doesn't mean the games are exploitative or cheesy. On the contrary, you might find the games more well-rounded as you now have to deal with more complex war, resource denial, diplomacy, economy, etc. instead of just a peaceful builder game. It's the whole package!

In a way, the Inca are the only civ that's not broken. Their pre-horse, pre-metal power is just about right so that war is on the table, but not trivial. Too bad the other civs can't get much mileage out of the generic warrior...although they can worker steal.

 

[vranasm]

In a way, the Inca are the only civ that's not broken. Their pre-horse, pre-metal power is just about right so that war is on the table, but not trivial. Too bad the other civs can't get much mileage out of the generic warrior...although they can worker steal.

hehe this post reminds me how sometimes developers of MMORPG start to balance pvp side of game...

they release some broken class and set it as new standard to which all other classes have to catch up and eventually break balance of pve endgame making game totally trivial (I look at you WoW here!)...

 

[Ozbenno]

this contradicts a bit the answer to my question on page 1 though.

Not at all. Both posts are saying that if we were to say yes to this, then we have to say yes to any other proposal that people wanted and we don't want to open ourselves to something like that (in principle mainly but also because of time restraints). Remember we are talking about something that less than half the people want. If everyone was unanimous in this, we would have to give it greater weight. Still wouldn't mean it would happen

 

[WastinTime]

If you look right now, there are probably many more non-Inca #1 games than Inca #1 games, but I'm sure the trend will be strongly Inca games in the future, unless the Inca filter is implemented.

I used the Ad-Hoc Query on every single HoF Deity table (all 9 * 6 * 4 = 208 tables) and I can tell you that there really aren't that many tables with Inca as the #1 game yet.

This is where you have a problem.
Five/six years ago, I thought for sure the Inca were coming to dominate the tables, but here we are in the 'future' and as you said, 'there really aren't that many'. There's not much evidence to indicate a surge in Inca submissions other than my 12 games (out of 1000's of #1 spots) Maybe you should wait and see if your prediction comes true. You could even help make it come true. I think that's your best bet to get a filter. If the Inca truly take over, you might have a shot.

 

[neilmeister]

There's not much evidence to indicate a surge in Inca submissions other than my 12 games (out of 1000's of #1 spots)

Whose spots did you take with the 12 games ?

 

[WastinTime]

Whose spots did you take with the 12 games ?

They were all STW's (2 domination, 10 religious)

I don't know if should admit to at least 8 more next update

EDIT: but in my defense, I think all those spots were mine once upon a time.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

This is where you have a problem.
Five/six years ago, I thought for sure the Inca were coming to dominate the tables, but here we are in the 'future' and as you said, 'there really aren't that many'. There's not much evidence to indicate a surge in Inca submissions other than my 12 games (out of 1000's of #1 spots) Maybe you should wait and see if your prediction comes true. You could even help make it come true. I think that's your best bet to get a filter. If the Inca truly take over, you might have a shot.

True, but I'm only interested in Deity slots, so 12/208 = well over 5% in one update.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

They were all STW's (2 domination, 10 religious)

I don't know if should admit to at least 8 more next update

EDIT: but in my defense, I think all those spots were mine once upon a time.

They belong to whoever has the #1 game. They are not mine any longer. Good luck defending them all!

I'll be interested to see your new games, but I will not care about any of those that are Inca wins. They are not at all impressive. The only exception in my opinion is your 5,000,000 Score game.

However, don't make the mistake that I went through all this trouble just because they were my games. I would have taken the same action, if _someone_ else's solid non-Inca games were trampled by Inca games.

Have a good day,

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Does the HoF claim compilation or other copyright privileges of the games in the HoF database or are they considered public domain that others can download and do their own filtering themselves? If so, are there any restrictions or guidelines that must be met for providing such data on a publicly accessible web server?

Just curious about possible alternatives. I'm not implying I have plans to actually do the above, since I know it would be a huge amount of work.

I might do something with the data privately, which I suspect would be ok, since players are permitted to download game saves all the time for "study".

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu