Incentives under communism?

[Narz]

But there is no system than one can create that does what you envision. It is entirely theoretical without practical application at scale.

Hence this thread, yes

I'm all for utopian dreaming, it's the engine of all progress.

However if you want to be taken seriously you can't start at the end.

 

[Zardnaar]

But there is no system than one can create that does what you envision. It is entirely theoretical without practical application at scale.

I don't think it can work because you're going to have to use force to apply it to at least 30% of the population.

At that point you have to have a police state.

So classical socialism and Communism can't work in practice or at least not centuries. You would have to have voluntary buy in from a huge % of the population.

I would also argue humans default to some form of autocracy.

A communes about your best chance but you hear the stories about them as well so go figure.

 

[Gorbles]

But there is no system than one can create that does what you envision.

But how do we get to everyone getting their needs met?

People's needs getting met implies people doing the work to get those needs met.

These are both questions for a different thread. No?

It's barely been one page and you're both pivoting already to indulging in your personal (lack of) belief in said system existing in the first place? We literally just had a thread that turned into that, which went basically nowhere.

I (and others) answered the question asked. Bit silly to now (effectively) say "well I actually meant a different question entirely".

EDIT - just to be clear, this was the question. Emphasis bold. The setting is that we're already in that ideal, not the process of how we get there!

But I'm not sure how the incentive structure would work in an ideal communist society?

 

[Sarin]

Communism can't exist as long as there are dangerous or ugly jobs that need doing by human hands. Capitalism coerces people into doing jobs like cleaning the toilets or working at McDonald's. But nobody likes or wants to do that, they just have little other options. Communism presupposes that they'll be happy that way and will not seek change.

 

[red_elk]

we have never experienced a true Communist state.

Perhaps because Communism is by definition a stateless society.
Soviet Union never self-identified as a communist state.

 

[amadeus]

Right assuming that best case scenario what would incentivize you to be to innovate if it's not gonna elevate you or your family?

Supposing a situation where you had anything you wanted that exists now, would you cease being productive entirely, even if said innovation improves your life too?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The Hutterites seem to still be carving the longest standing functional example.

It depends on the colony. They're not all equal, and there are plenty of examples of where they're All About The Money (though of course I'm not sure how much of that is kept by individuals; I do see a lot of them out shopping, though).

The Hutterites are always at the Farmer's Market, and they also sell food and other goods privately (ie. my grandparents used to buy eggs from them, and they'd deliver them to the house).

They don't miss opportunities to make a sale. One Saturday our SCA group was doing a demo at the Farmer's Market. We were there in costume, and mine was my long black dress, black boots, black shawl, with a little bit of silver accessories and a coin pouch on my belt. Two of the people were late, so I'd gone into the arena lobby to phone them and tell them the rest of us were there.

A Hutterite woman came up to me, and showed me a piece of paper with a phone number. She pointed at the phone and handed me a quarter. I asked her if she wanted me to call the number for her, and she nodded.

So I punched in the numbers and handed her the receiver. She carried on a conversation in German, and when she finished, I made my own call. Then I went back to where our demo was being held.

Awhile later, a group of Hutterite women turned up, and proceeded to try to sell us a variety of knitted things. I don't think anyone bought anything from them, though they might have made a sale if they'd turned up with some baked goods or fruit.

And nowadays, I see Hutterite women and girls with cell phones. Nice that they can afford them. I can't.

 

[Perfection]

Hi! Would you like to do this?

yes / no / delete as appropriate

Everybody wants a clean toilet nobody wants to clean the toilet.

 

[GenMarshall]

Status, enjoying the job, altruism.
The odd thing is in capitalist societies we reward the jobs that give the above with good pay.
We rely on coercion,...

That's not the same as being threatened to be thrown into the gulags just because you refuse to work in the coal mines. I wasn't coerced into becoming a machinist, I was incentivized into perusing that path because it payed far much more than being a retail associate for the rest of my life. I had to evolve, pick myself with my own bootstraps. I was not forced at gunpoint to work in the coal mines by a commissar.

I don't evny the doctor who gets paid more than I do since he has gone through the task of going through additional education and residency for his/her efforts to become a doctor (Doesn't matter if it's a general practitioner or a specialist like a cardiologist). Teachers are a mixed bag, at least here in the US, since it's dependent on the school district, what level of education is being taught (elementary teacher vs. college lecturer), public v. private school teacher, and what contract the teacher's union have negotiated into and that's a whole mess that involves the superintendent, the K-12 school board, and the city/town mayor and/or council (This is more seen with public schools in the US).

...specifically having enough to eat, somewhere to live etc,...

Those aren't coercions.

...to get people to do the jobs that don't provide status, aren't enjoyable, don't leave you feeling good about yourself.

And how are you going to incentivize the people in this communist utopia to work the dirty jobs that are essential to running a city, a civilization. Without resulting in authoritarianism? You're still going to need manual skilled labor jobs to maintain the necessary infrastructure for a modern society. Not everything can be replaced with robots and AI, there's still a task that needs the human finesse and judgement that a machine does not posses. Even when working on a CNC machine, I still have to take measurements with calipers and micrometers to ensure the cut is to tolerance and make any adjustments necessary.

As Perfection brought up, "Everybody wants a clean toilet nobody wants to clean the toilet".

Even if you go completely communist, you're not getting rid of any system of monetary exchange as the system would evolve into a black market where capitalism exist out of the prying eyes of the communist authorities who would crack down on the system, harshly, if they discover it. Hence communism devolves into authoritarianism since you need a crackdown on a shadow economy that undermines the communist system and forcing people to work, under the threat of punishment, jobs that you'd describe as "don't provide status, aren't enjoyable, and don't leave you feeling good about yourself". Even under communism, you still need workers to mine the coal for the people's coal power plant or materials (coke) for the people's steel mill.

 

[Gorbles]

Everybody wants a clean toilet nobody wants to clean the toilet.

I mean, I clean my toilet

Are we talking about public services here?

Those aren't coercions.

Yes they are, considering at least one of those are fundamental to not dying!

you're not getting rid of any system of monetary exchange as the system would evolve into a black market where capitalism exist out of the prying eyes of the communist authorities who would crack down on the system, harshly, if they discover it.

You're doing the thing where you assume a "communist utopia" is actually a "Soviet-era state". The only person who can let go of these preconceptions is you.

 

[NinjaCow64]

That's not the same as being threatened to be thrown into the gulags just because you refuse to work in the coal mines.

Instead if you are unable or unwilling to do the work required to pay for rent then you become homeless and are constantly monstered by the police. Or many other awful fates that happen to those who do not have stable income. Its no better than even the worst of the Soviet Union and it is coercion.

 

[Perfection]

I mean, I clean my toilet

Are we talking about public services here?

talking about all the unpleasant stuff that needs to get done to make society function

I feel like without personal material incentives to do that work, it won't get done. I mean as a die-hard Trekkie it'd be friggin' sweet though.


I like a lot of communist folks because they actually say society sucks and needs to change. But I haven't seen a convincing plan that fixes it without creating a host of new problems , and I see a lot of risks in advocating rapid radical societal change.

 

[AmazonQueen]

That's not the same as being threatened to be thrown into the gulags just because you refuse to work in the coal mines. I wasn't coerced into becoming a machinist, I was incentivized into perusing that path because it payed far much more than being a retail associate for the rest of my life. I had to evolve, pick myself with my own bootstraps. I was not forced at gunpoint to work in the coal mines by a commissar.

Nor were people even under the Soviet system. Not to deny the mass murders and imprisonments the Soviet government was responsible for reasons of politics, religion, and ethnicity but to get people to work in mines the Soviet Union relied on incentives like any capitalist system.

Those aren't coercions.

Sure they aren't and when a government "sanctions" welfare claimants because they don't want to accept an awful job that isn't coercion either, right?

 

[Narz]

Supposing a situation where you had anything you wanted that exists now, would you cease being productive entirely, even if said innovation improves your life too?

How do I get to the situation you suppose?

I would be motivated in said situation but less so than if it would make a big difference in my life and the lives of those I care about

Everybody wants a clean toilet nobody wants to clean the toilet.

talking about all the unpleasant stuff that needs to get done to make society function

I feel like without personal material incentives to do that work, it won't get done. I mean as a die-hard Trekkie it'd be friggin' sweet though.


I like a lot of communist folks because they actually say society sucks and needs to change. But I haven't seen a convincing plan that fixes it without creating a host of new problems , and I see a lot of risks in advocating rapid radical societal change.

That's my view. Altho if I love something I don't really need pressure but the idea that all 8 billion humans are gonna be able to have a career that's intrinsically rewarding a lil fanciful.

 

[Gorbles]

talking about all the unpleasant stuff that needs to get done to make society function

I feel like without personal material incentives to do that work, it won't get done. I mean as a die-hard Trekkie it'd be friggin' sweet though.

These are all problems we've barely begun to advance on solutions for. It's part of getting to an "ideal" state (that Narz already said we'd gotten to in his OP).

Nobody can answer these questions with any certainty unless they happen to be a) specialised in whatever discipline is required and b) willing to see the technology developed.

Take software for example. Depending on the person, some (professional) folks sit in their own little castle of software that only they understand. This is how they protect themselves (under capitalism, it must be noted), which results in a bunch of pain for the team (but not so often the company, so long as the individual can keep things working).

Such a person, currently, would be a) but not b), if that makes sense?

Which is why the discussion needs to be open to the possibilities, if that's the discussion the thread is going to pivot to. I was focused on already being there, because I felt that the question asked was interesting in its own way. Shifting peoples' perspectives on "laziness" is also required, culturally, for this kind of positive change to manifest.

Unfortunately I think Narz just wanted a launching pad to turn this into every single other "ideal communism isn't possible" discussion we've had a billion times before. And I wouldn't mind so much, but the last one was literally like last week or something

 

[Narz]

Unfortunately I think Narz just wanted

There's your problem mate

 

[Gorbles]

There's your problem mate

You're the one who kept asking about "how do we get there", not me.

My opinion is my opinion, as always. You're welcome to disagree with something of actual substance anytime.

 

[GenMarshall]

Nor were people even under the Soviet system. Not to deny the mass murders and imprisonments the Soviet government was responsible for reasons of politics, religion, and ethnicity but to get people to work in mines the Soviet Union relied on incentives like any capitalist system.

And pray tell what are the incentives are in the USSR that don't involve a "friendly" visit from the local commissar putting telling you to work in the coal mines under the threat of being thrown into the gulags?

Sure they aren't and when a government "sanctions" welfare claimants because they don't want to accept an awful job that isn't coercion either, right?

That's the fact of life, you ether take the awful job or don't. That's their choice not to accept the job, not some nefarious capitalist conspiracy plot.

Yes they are, considering at least one of those are fundamental to not dying!

Again, no, They are not coersions. Is a gun being pointed at you head to not eat or have a place to live? Are you being threatened by another person? No. If you cannot get food or a place to live, the onus is on you, not blame it all on capitalism.

You're doing the thing where you assume a "communist utopia" is actually a "Soviet-era state". The only person who can let go of these preconceptions is you.

Nice dodge on how you are going to prevent the devolution into authoritarianism in communism. The fact is, you're not going to prevent people from engaging in a capitalist economy within a shadow economy away from prying eyes of the authorities and you're still going to corerce people into jobs. Again, communist utopia just leads to authoritarianism as history has shown.

I have yet to see any convincing arguments that this communist utopia is feasible in the real world. It's nice on paper, but hard to implement it in reality without resorting to authoritarianism.

 

[Perfection]

Take software for example. Depending on the person, some (professional) folks sit in their own little castle of software that only they understand. This is how they protect themselves (under capitalism, it must be noted), which results in a bunch of pain for the team (but not so often the company, so long as the individual can keep things working).

Such a person, currently, would be a) but not b), if that makes sense?

lol im a hardware engineer who develops computing platforms so a company can have a walled garden software ecosystem. i kinda feel called out.

 

[AmazonQueen]

And pray tell what are the incentives are in the USSR that don't involve a "friendly" visit from the local commissar putting telling you to work in the coal mines under the threat of being thrown into the gulags?

Same as in a capitalist society. better pay, praise, awards. If anything expectations of individual workers were low under the Soviet system. Keep your head down, your mouth shut and turn up and you could get away with being a total jobsworth

That's the fact of life, you ether take the awful job or don't. That's their choice not to accept the job, not some nefarious capitalist conspiracy plot.

Again, no, They are not coersions. Is a gun being pointed at you head to not eat or have a place to live? Are you being threatened by another person? No. If you cannot get food or a place to live, the onus is on you, not blame it all on capitalism.

Nice dodge on how you are going to prevent the devolution into authoritarianism in communism. The fact is, you're not going to prevent people from engaging in a capitalist economy within a shadow economy away from prying eyes of the authorities and you're still going to corerce people into jobs. Again, communist utopia just leads to authoritarianism as history has shown.

I have yet to see any convincing arguments that this communist utopia is feasible in the real world. It's nice on paper, but hard to implement it in reality without resorting to authoritarianism.

Guess we're going to just disagree about what coercion can involve.
I'm not pretending that communism was perfect, I don't need to. I'm not a Marxist but I get fed up with attempts to use the faults of the Soviet system to try and deny improvement is possible in our society.