Infernal stuff

[Vehem]

Hmm... 2000 with Entropy providing 200% bonus (rather than 100%) equates to around 666...

 

[ICanHasName?]

I think it would be cool for the speed of the pact to be increased by all the 'evil' mana types (death, chaos, entropy, possibly shadow?), to make it easier for civs based on how evil they are. Bonus points if having them all resulted in 666

 

[WarKirby]

666 is a bit more manageable, though still a bit expensive for my tastes.

At it's current cost, I just don't find it to be useful as an option to save your empire from hell. it just takes too long to build, and you need that production for building an army to surviv

How about reducing it's actual hammer cost to 666, and keeping the double speed entropy bonus.

 

[Vehem]

I think it would be cool for the speed of the pact to be increased by all the 'evil' mana types (death, chaos, entropy, possibly shadow?), to make it easier for civs based on how evil they are. Bonus points if having them all resulted in 666

Might go +100% with Entropy, +50% with each of Death/Chaos. Total for all 3 would be 666

====

The cost isn't going below that after modification though. As Xienwolf said - the city needs to be a developed one and it needs to be hard work and a sacrifice to achieve. 1000 may have been a little high compared to most other rituals, but this should be enough to solve that.

 

[Tasunke]

works for me. of course, the better your industry is (as far as percentage increases on sheilds), the more diminishing return for such mana you recieve, it never reduces the actual amount of hammers requred, just increases the speed you produce them.

Of course Im thinking you already know that but it would never display as 666 unless that was its base cost

 

[WarKirby]

works for me. of course, the better your industry is (as far as percentage increases on sheilds), the more diminishing return for such mana you recieve, it never reduces the actual amount of hammers requred, just increases the speed you produce them.

Of course Im thinking you already know that but it would never display as 666 unless that was its base cost

You have a good point, I forgot this.

+100% production speed is NOT the same as halfing the cost. Except in a scenario where you have no production boosts.

Most of the time, it's going to be a significant reduction in production times, but nowhere near half. I'm usually running around with +110% production in my capital already, due to Forge + Artisans Workshop + God King + a master building.or two

+100% from a mana type isn't going to increase my total production by 100%, only my much lower base. In the above case, it would really work out to a total of less than 50% increase.

 

[ICanHasName?]

Make the base price 666 and DECREASE the build speed for every evil mana you DON'T have? Is that possible?

 

[Rutee]

I thought the point made earlier about Infernal PAct Not being an emergency measure was a powerful thought. Either you fight the demons for reals, or you choose ahead of time to side with them. I agree that 2000 hammers is a little much, but my Khazad game just had my non-minmaxed cities complete wonders like the nexus in 5 turns. Perhaps 1200 hammers or so, with Mana bonuses?

I don't entirely see the problem with forcing the "Side with demons" choice well in advance, mind, but I don't see any particular benefit either.

 

[WarKirby]

The Khazad have +90% production more than anyone else. Basing the cost of something on what the single most powerful industrial civ can do is silly.

 

[Rutee]

The Khazad have +90% production more than anyone else. Basing the cost of something on what the single most powerful industrial civ can do is silly.

Piffle. By that point at least half of my pluses to building buildings were coming from Master's buildings and Artisan's Workshops in every city. I was at +165% for it. Other civs would still have had a solid +100% int he same situation, and potentially other or different bonuses (LIke the Sidar's higher base hammers from engineer spam).

1200, with +65% for Entropy and +65% for Death, is pretty well within reach, but NOT as an emergency measure. Strikes me as fairly fair.

 

[Tasunke]

1200 might be doable. I must admit there is little incentive to side with demons when you can just as easily create a super sized army ... but meh. Maybe the demons just need to be scaled to how well/ strong the civs are. If civs have reached tier 3 perhaps make the horsmen immortal (add Capital somewhere ... will need thoughts, but in base game could be attached to Dragon Hoard) and if civs (meaning 50% or more) have reached tier 4, to give an extra 50% strenght either in promo or added to base strength.

I like the Idea of a scary armageddon, but its hard to balance an unfun game where everyone dies before they even get to build a proper empire, and a game where the horsemen are tiny mosquito bites

 

[25Hour]

Might go +100% with Entropy, +50% with each of Death/Chaos. Total for all 3 would be 666

I like that. Actually, I tend to think it's an advantage that production bonuses will mean less-- it'll mean that the amount of sacrifice will tend to vary less from civilization to civilization, which seems like what you'd want.

I don't entirely see the problem with forcing the "Side with demons" choice well in advance, mind, but I don't see any particular benefit either.

I tend to think that deciding to build the Pax Diabolis is an interesting/difficult decision early on, when you don't know whether or not it'll pay off (since the demons haven't starting eating everyone yet and you don't know when/if they will.) It's no longer an interesting decision if you can just choose to build it when you KNOW it'll pay off with little downside (i.e., when demons are running around, killing your armies, knocking over everything). And strategy games are all about interesting decisions. Of course, it should also be somewhat practical to build... 666 seems like a good medium. 400 at least, including bonuses. (I realize that you have to be AV/have researched IP to do this, but in the late game, your economy can get you religious techs extremely quickly, and conversion takes a mere 1 turn-- well worth it if you're facing down high-strength Ira.)

Alternatively, there could be somewhat stricter world limits on the number of civs that could build the Pax Diabolis-- would it be possible to limit this to 1/4 or 1/5 the starting number of players, rounded up, rather than a set number? It'd mean that you'd have to build it ahead of time (or else the others might get it first), but the hammer cost could be kept low to compensate. I think that'd work quite well to enforce a difficult decision without making the building of the Pax drawn-out and painful, and would also mechanically force epic good vs. evil battles in the late game (since after a certain point, there'd be no more Pax Diabolis' to go around, so you'd HAVE to fight the AC in order to not die horribly.) Likewise, the Pax players could be assured of some advantage in raising the AC, since others couldn't just jump on the bandwagon willy-nilly.

 

[WarKirby]

Here's a thought.

It's a decision the AI CAN'T make early on.

They're not capable of planning in advance for that kind of thing.
When demons sweep the world, AI civs drop like flies.

 

[WarKirby]

and conversion takes a mere 1 turn-- well worth it if you're facing down high-strength Ira.)

Conversion to AV will also cause you to lose any current religious heroes you have, turn your alignment to evil, and possibly cost massive relations penalties.

 

[xienwolf]

Tasunke: Have you faced high AC demons in Fall Further? I was forced to tone them back considerably, but was under the impression they were still quite the threat. And due to tech requirements for various units, it should scale decently with the tech leaders.


WarKirby: AI can't ever make the decision to do Pax, we haven't set them up for it yet. Probably won't till we integrate the entire concept of the AC into their longterm strategy layer.

 

[Tasunke]

I was referring mainly to multiplayer games, although I'll do a couple runthroughs in SP FF into the lategame armageddon to see how it flies.

 

[25Hour]

Here's a thought.

It's a decision the AI CAN'T make early on.

They're not capable of planning in advance for that kind of thing.
When demons sweep the world, AI civs drop like flies.

We should not eliminate having to plan in advance for the sake of the AI, which (as Xienwolf mentioned) hasn't even been taught about the Pax yet. Besides, the basic strategy wouldn't necessarily be very difficult. If the AI goes AV and builds the pact, it should then work to increase the AC. Simple as that. Their probability of converting/building the Pax (weighted by civ/religious heroes and high priests, of course) should go up as the AC does, until the Pax limit has been reached. There are a few more things to be taken into account, natch, but that's the meat of it.

Conversion to AV will also cause you to lose any current religious heroes you have, turn your alignment to evil, and possibly cost massive relations penalties.

The first is highly situational (given that it depends on you having religious heroes in the first place, and their still being alive.) The second is as likely to give you massive relations boosts as it is massive relations penalties. In general, likely to be well worth it given the alternative of facing strength 20 Ira every few turns.

 

[ICanHasName?]

I play on Immortal, crowded maps and classical start, so the infernals show up early. The second hell terrain spreads into their lands the evil civs loose all their improvements and either finish the Pax or spend the next 100 turns hiding in their cities. Once blight hits civs start dying outright. I dont know what the horseman do, because killing the infernals and inquisiting the Veil is just easier then battling AC 40 demons. More open maps and lower difficulty probly make the demons less dangerous though.

I would say if you are going Ashen Veil you always want the Pax and you want it done before Hell terrain shows up, because once it does its too late.

 

[Tasunke]

Just one thing, and it may have been changed ... but why are Azers so strong and so common? I mean, I understand having strong demons, but AZERS? idk, just doesnt seem very fitting. Id rather have more sect of flies and skeletons than some fiery dudes. Especially in maps were the weaker demons get killed off and all you have are 3-5 superAzers walking around and any new spawns of whatever specie until all nonAzer ones are intantly killed. I did only notice this in one game though.

Also I would rather have Ira only start spawning after the Avatar appears (unless thats already the case)

One qualm I might have is that you have a position for a powerful and populating demon to overlord Erebus .... and its Ira? just because that is the biggest menace in epic game doesnt mean you need Ira to be the placeholder for AC badassery. Personally I would prefer DemonLords, outerplanar beings, or Old Ones.

(im honestly not complaining, just being suggestionirific)

 

[WarKirby]

One qualm I might have is that you have a position for a powerful and populating demon to overlord Erebus .... and its Ira? just because that is the biggest menace in epic game doesnt mean you need Ira to be the placeholder for AC badassery. Personally I would prefer DemonLords, outerplanar beings, or Old Ones.

(im honestly not complaining, just being suggestionirific)

This.

I don't think I'd complain nearly as much about the ira's power, if they were 50 foot tall hyborem-esque demon lords, rather than these pithy little ghosts.

But even still, a str32 endlessly summonable unit IS too powerful.