Information Drought?

[Louis XXIV]

^ I disagree about Gilgamesh. People speculate that he was real and just exaggerated, but there's no reason to actually think that. Basically, the logic is that other people in his story are real, which is a very tenuous thread to believe in a person's veracity. It's not uncommon to have fictional characters and embellish the story with references to real people - especially if the tale already existed but gets more robust as time goes on.

I don't know much about Ragnar either way, but there are plenty of concrete rulers to prefer. I spelled out everything below, but I'm not sure why Hiawatha is lumped with the other two.

Dido is probably the goofiest choice they've made for a female leader since Civ III (the less said about Civ II, the better), but she's not any stupider than Hiawatha, Ragnar Lodbrok, or Gilgamesh. How often do people complain about those three?

I complain about Ragnar all the time. I was pushing for Cnut, but was ecstatic to see Harald.
I also complain about Gilgamesh. I think he's one of the dumbest choices, especially since he's the only one chosen. I've argued for Ur-Nammu or Shulgi instead.
I'm also not a Brennus fan.

I'm not sure the objection is to Hiawatha. While I think Decanesora would be an interesting choice that matches the Iroquois ethos at their height, there isn't any reason to think Hiawatha wasn't real. He didn't do anything involving superpowers, he simply helped unify the Confederacy with the help of Deganawida (The Great Peacemaker). Just because there aren't European records of him doesn't mean he's a poor choice.

 

[wigwam]

None of those are fictional. Many of their exploits clearly are, but as far as is known they were real people whose lives were embellished into legend, not made-up characters.

I don't think there's actually any evidence at all for the historical existence of Ragnar or Hiawatha. Dido and Gilgamesh, sure, there may once upon a time have been a Phoenician princess and a Sumerian king by those names, but the characters we got as Civ leaders were fictional. Jesus may have been real, but the version of Jesus who walked on water and rose from the dead was fictional. Abraham Lincoln was definitely real, but the version of Abraham Lincoln who fought vampires was fictional.

Again, I don't mind having fictional ("legendary," if you prefer) characters as leaders. I just think it's foolish to accept that and then complain about "Maria the Mad."

 

[Louis XXIV]

What exact historical evidence would you want for Hiawatha considering the Iroquois had no written language and relied on oral history? Is the evidence any worse than that of Pachacuti for the Inca?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Let's remember this Hiawatha is not the same as the one from the poem.

 

[wigwam]

What exact historical evidence would you want for Hiawatha considering the Iroquois had no written language and relied on oral history? Is the evidence any worse than that of Pachacuti for the Inca?

Ha, that's a fair point. Even written evidence doesn't necessarily prove anything, though (hence our quibbles about Gilgamesh and Dido)—I get the sense that whereas Pachacuti was a recent historical figure whose concrete accomplishments people could actually point to (he built this, he conquered that), Hiawatha has always existed in the distant past of Iroquois history.

Anyway, I like Hiawatha just fine (Dido too). I mean, he's kind of a dick in the game, but I like the idea of him fine.

 

[Dragonflow]

Anyway, I like Hiawatha just fine (Dido too). I mean, he's kind of a dick in the game, but I like the idea of him fine.

Now you take that back right away Mister! Nobody call my buddy Hiawatha a dick and gets away with it!
He and Bismarck are always best friends with me in any game and I respect that.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think the difference is Dido and Gilgamesh did things that are objectively implausible. The earliest sources for Dido said she was a goddess and Gilgamesh was 2/3 of a god iirc.

 

[wigwam]

Yikes! You know what they say about the company you keep…

I've actually been playing as Hiawatha in my most recent game, and Germany is the only civ I share a border with. Shockingly, we've been best pals all game long (and the Siamese have been beating the crap out of him, while ignoring me, for about 2000 years).

Re: Dido & co.—ha, yeah, and Gilgamesh reigned for like 123 years, right?

 

[Loaf Warden]

And I heard that Chuck Norris keeps an extra fist in his beard. Just because the stories are embellished doesn't mean the people weren't real. (Or that they were.) As far as we know, Gilgamesh was a real king of Uruk. I don't say that makes him the best possible choice for the Sumerians, but he's not generally considered a made-up character, either.

By the way, Alexander was also believed to be part divine. Would anyone call him fictional?

 

[turingmachine]

I think the difference is Dido and Gilgamesh did things that are objectively implausible. The earliest sources for Dido said she was a goddess and Gilgamesh was 2/3 of a god iirc.

And Ramesses was said to be a god, so? It was part of the general Afro-Asiatic/Sumer/ancient Mesopotamian mindset to deify rulers (Carthage coming from Phoenician culture, in this case). It's actually one of the key differences between early religious traditions influenced by Indo-European thinking (Priest vs King) and Afro-Asiatic (God-Kings). This fact and that it was applied to almost all their rulers says absolutely nothing about their potential historicity.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I don't know if he was believed to be divine, an oracle told him he was and he used it for propaganda purposes, but his divinity was not stressed, which makes the situation different.

ETA: This was in response to Alexander. Of the examples there, only Egypt really proclaimed divinity for their rulers. Tyre and Mesopotamia as a whole had their rulers as representatives of the gods, not as gods.

 

[codepoet]

I think the difference is Dido and Gilgamesh did things that are objectively implausible. The earliest sources for Dido said she was a goddess and Gilgamesh was 2/3 of a god iirc.

Pharaoh claimed to be a god; and Alexander took advantage of this cultural norm... most leaders of early cultures declared themselves gods in some form. So I have no problem with this... it's just the way those cultures worked and their histories therefore reflect it.

 

[Louis XXIV]

See, I don't find that all analogous, especially since it was uncommon for Sumerian and especially Tyrian leaders to claim divinity.

 

[janboruta]

For anyone thirsty for info out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkwBPFRFmXo

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

That link is busted.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Just now, on Twitter:

Kate ‏@Ga1Friday 1m
I love the moments before we post something awesome. #Civ

 

[cybrxkhan]

Just now, on Twitter:

Kate ‏@Ga1Friday 1m
I love the moments before we post something awesome. #Civ

So... something this Friday, or right now?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Ga1Friday is her handle, not the date.

 

[Dragonflow]

Just now, on Twitter:

Kate ‏@Ga1Friday 1m
I love the moments before we post something awesome. #Civ

Spoiler :

 

[SnowKomodo]

interesting