Inside Soren's Presentation (Some Real Gems!)

Duke_of_BOOM! said:
I don't feel so confident...

- Continuous, immersive 3D world (what-you-see-is-what-you-get)
Mmm eyecandy. I expect their to be a row by the gamers who have not upgraded hardware since '96 and complain anytime something exceeds their antiquated systems.
Hopefully not at the expense of gameplay.

- Drop unfun legacy (pollution, rioting, maintenance, corruption/waste)
Pollution should be very reduced... but what is the incentive to being eco-friendly?
Rioting... makes sense, when was the last time a city rioted for a year.
Maintenance... might be a good thing if buildings and economics was more abstracted, might be a bad thing if the game is oversimplified.
Corruption/waste... this makes me very apprehensive, does this mean that there will be nothing to stop the snowball effect?
I'm sure there will be something to replace all of these in order to restore game balance. It's not as though they'd take this stuff out and, say, let you have unlimited units for no cost. ;)

Though, pollution as it's implimented now doesn't motivate anyone to be eco-friendly...

- New killer features (religion, civics)

My #1 request; An AI that can beat me (sometimes) without cheating, is what I am looking forward to.
I'm sure the AI will recieve some beefing up as well; saying that directly would be redundant with the obvious. :p
 
I think it all looks pretty promising to me. I agree that I'd hate to see it become an RTS. Though I like so much of how Empire Earth, et al, looks and feels -- I just don't have the kind of gamer mind that enjoys having to be so "switched on" all the time -- unless it is by choice. Generally I need to take my own time to think, and plot. :)

I am absolutely sure it is possible to make Civilization with "much better eyecandy" without having to impact heavily or at all on all the other aspects we love so much. And I agree with warpstorm that they'll be keeping it all very easy to customise -- I just can't see them deliberately doing anything to go against all their history with providing such great customisation support.

As for how well the "better eyecandy" works, only they can be responsible for any confidence in claiming they've done it successfully. But I think there are ways, and they're in a good position to be able to pull it off well considering what they've already done -- and especially considering the points raised in this presentation.

All in all I'm looking forward to seeing what they do, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it in a new but familiar way, as I have with all the series so far. I'm glad in the meantime to be distracted by Civ3, which we will always have, and for a moment also, City of Heroes -- as it reminds me so much of my time back on "The Realm." Not at all a Civ game, but fun for me, nonetheless. ;)
 
I know that this might be haughty, but I developed a full religion system when the "player's suggestions" topic was open on apolyton for Civ 3. (year ago :P)
Anyway, my friend and I had a conversation how should CIV 4 look like and finally agreed that we should make our own CIV, as Firaxis will blow it again.

the issues we discussed:
* tile based vs vector-based * The first one sux from point of "realism", second sux from point of "unit movement and overall civ feeling".
* 3D map * will it be full 3D so we can watch sattelite views with zoom in-out and different types of views, or will it be the same thing again (heroes 3 type view)?
* cities * yet again will cities be of a size of a small country or will they be dots like in real world with zoom-in ability so you can see them at decent size

* combat * press key 7 and pray OR strategic placement of units defending / attacking? simplfied of course.

* decision-making * will civ leave you again with "matter of fact" decision making (i.e. you move a scout two tiles and see the terrain immediately) or will it be flexible. "Yo, scouts, see those hills? Go in that direction from here and return after 3 months to tell me what you saw."

* time * will they stick to turn-based and the stupid -4000 start again or will we get an event-based counting system. I.e. no counting at all until our "wise men" discover calendar. And time stops on events you define. By this I don't mean RTS, but UFO: Enemy Unknown style of play.

I personally prefer the vector-based, event-based game where armies will be amassed on some point you decide, and borders are watched only by scouts and border guard (which cannot stop an invasion of course). This could be great if the game would be (to some point) comic, so the following example could be fun:
You play as egyptian and you have a huge army of war chariots in Thebes. Your spies in Hitti warn you of an upcoming invasion. The spies say their forces will be at Suez in est. 2 weeks. You order your army to use the road to alexandria and then to break for suez. The amry is described by a banner on the map, but when you zoom in you can actually see a swarm of chariots moving thru the desert. But your spies were captured a month before and the information was false. The Hitti actually payed the greek a hefty sum use the greek navy to land west of alexandria. You turn your armies back in hope you can meet them in desert, before they can cross the Nile and pray that the ambassador you have in Carthage is doing his job (you gave him privileges to "react on events" and spend money as he see fit). With a relief, you see that a Carthagean fleet of warships is reaching your shore and is starting to bombard with greek fleet fire the greek navy. You regroup your chariots and send for reinforcements and storm into the beachead to stop the eventual landing of Hitti forces. You are victorious but swear that the greek will suffer as well as hitti. Although you payed a hefty sum to the Carthageans, you send emissaries to Romans and Babylonians for an alliance against the Greeks. You hire mercenaries from Numidia and pay the Carthageans once more. The numidians will attack the greek harbors while your chariots swarm through Carthage (right of passage) and to the hitti lands... where the bribed carthagean diplomats told Mursilis that his plan was succesful and Egypt lay in ruins... Next time Mursilis will know better than to leave the army campaign to some general. You personally led your army to victory :)
 
Duke_of_BOOM! said:
I don't feel so confident...

- Continuous, immersive 3D world (what-you-see-is-what-you-get)
Mmm eyecandy. I expect their to be a row by the gamers who have not upgraded hardware since '96 and complain anytime something exceeds their antiquated systems.
I like to play BIG maps (my current game is 185h hours long), but in my 2004's portable, C3C is getting slow.

Some numbers: 412 cities, 1166 workers, ~100 workers automated to clean pollution,...
This in 3d... :(
 
Portuguese said:
I like to play BIG maps (my current game is 185h hours long), but in my 2004's portable, C3C is getting slow.

Some numbers: 412 cities, 1166 workers, ~100 workers automated to clean pollution,...
This in 3d... :(

Atleast the pollution system might be different. I also wonder if they're gonna use the game engine that they're using for Pirates II. Then again, it might be a simplified isometric-3D, like SimCity. I'm hoping for the later if it's keeping the same theme.
 
I mean, at it's very soul, Civ is a turn-based strategy game. If you morph the franchise into an RTS game, for example, then we'll never actually get to see Civ4

Perfectly said. If Civ4 is RTS, then I won't buy it. That is the ONLY feature that would insure that I don't get it. There is a severe lack of good turn-based games, and I would hate to lose #1.

------------------------------

As for making it better - I would be happy if all they did was simplify some of the existing Civ3 stuff. How to simplify to the game?
Easy trading screen - have one screen that shows everything we can buy and sell.
Worker pools - let me collect enough workers together that can rail one grassland tile a turn. Rather then move 12 workers hitting r 12 times, let me move a worker pool and hit r once.
Mass bombard - rather that click b and aim 25 artillery pieces - let me click a mass bombard screen, and show the results of the 25 units.
There is a lot more along this line of thought. Keep the depth of Civ3, but make the late game easier to manage.




Once the presentation downloads I will have to take a close look.
 
Portuguese said:
I like to play BIG maps (my current game is 185h hours long), but in my 2004's portable, C3C is getting slow.

Some numbers: 412 cities, 1166 workers, ~100 workers automated to clean pollution,...
This in 3d... :(
The reason things go so slow is because of the code base. An efficient 3D graphics system wouldn't make things any slower. In fact, if done properly it would likely be a lot faster. That coupled with a more better code base would mean that Civ 4 would go faster than Civ 3. ;)
 
Downloaded the slides... have to sleep now will check them later, but it sounds promising.
 
I fear the new Civ IV developer may be trying to turn the franchise into a Starcraft or AoM genre game.

The Civ franchise isn't all about fighting and has a lot to do with strategizing and diplomacy.

I like the trade and diplomacy features and believe they can be strengthened. I like the military features, but well...we'll see.

What other games are like Civ but strengthen the role of diplomacy but still have excellent uses for a military? I loved how SMAC balanced this.

Anyone want to start a game franchise? :D
 
it's very promising! if they stick it strictly to the design (scriptable, moddable, modellable), CIV will surely be the best civ game ever ;)
 
Very nice presentation... Few comments about the fanbase rings.
Two fanrings that are located in quite different spots might be people who like very detailed and technical things and people who just want reasonably fast cool gameplay.Master of Orion 3 is a nice example of a game what actually is incredibly complex, but you can also play without going into the details. As previously mentioned, the problem was that the came came out incomplete, and hence sucks in many ways.
Since there doesnt seem to come any more master of orions, i would like to hope that CIV IV would came out like this, only finished, and better. But the presentation and some other things seem to suggest that it wont have complex economy models and such.

What i think a good idea would be for civilization series, that the game itself should be reasonably simple, but modders should be able to create complex mods of civ IV that hardcore gamers with lots of free time should be able to enjoy. Kind of like Double your Pleasure mod with it's zounds of units and stuff, only more so.
Companies probably would not make a game for the very small number of people who like spending more time on details than on the whole picture. But modders should probably have some kind of good platvorm to build the complex stuff.
 
Looking at the presentation slides from Firaxis - worries me a lot.

All those remarks about going for new audiences -etc. (Therefore dropping existing ones - 1/3 - will probally still buy.)

Then showing graphics from existing real time games.

Are they going to drop the turned based mode, in favour of Real-time play?

The Soren presentation -hints at that. (Going for new markets - for this game.) - and referencing realtime games.

I hope I am wrong - because I support turn based games - not real time.

Turn based games can have 3-D just as much as realtime.

But I want to sit and think about what I do next - not just fire a weapon at random, at any object that happens to appear infront of me.
 
Harrier, I think you are getting the wrong message. I read it as that there will be less sweeping changes than some are expecting.
 
Trip said:
The reason things go so slow is because of the code base. An efficient 3D graphics system wouldn't make things any slower. In fact, if done properly it would likely be a lot faster. That coupled with a more better code base would mean that Civ 4 would go faster than Civ 3. ;)

I agree with you. I have only an old Duron 850 MHz system with 512 MB RAM and a Geforce2 w/ 64 MB, and Age of Mythology ran considerably faster in my system than Civ3, PTW or Conquests. That's the result of a very polished 3D code, I think.
 
warpstorm said:
Harrier, I think you are getting the wrong message. I read it as that there will be less sweeping changes than some are expecting.

That's how I read it too, warpstorm. They certainly don't want to alienate part of the fans, and the changes may not be so radical in the end...

But some parts of the presentation hint at a more streamlined game, and this worries me because Civ3 was already a very streamlined game when compared to SMAC...
 
warpstorm said:
Harrier, I think you are getting the wrong message. I read it as that there will be less sweeping changes than some are expecting.

That's funny, because I read it as "we need to balance the business as usual mentality with producing a genuinely new game". Not to say they INTEND to actually follow through, but there's an entire string of pages where they talk about crossing genres.

But forget semantics. I think we will agree that they can't put out the same game over and over... just as much as we agree that they can't totally revamp and cross genres or anything crazy like that.

The 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 thing is right in there, after all the discussion of "staying the same" and "adding all kinds of awesome stuff".
 
In any case, there's no way in HELL that Civ will ever be real-time by default. :p The closest we'll ever get to that special modes in MP. ;)
 
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