Instant War-Weariness

[TheOverseer714]

Just when I thought I had seen it all when it comes to this game, I am surprised once again. Playing as a happy, well-adjusted Byzantine Republic cruising towards a space victory, I get RoP-raped by my friends the English. My overseas Specialist farms all get grabbed and every, I mean every single citizen is unhappy! I am at 100% war weariness in a single turn. I'm wondering, has this ever happened to many here, and what did you do?

 

[CommandoBob]

My overseas Specialist farmms all get grabbed and every, I mean every single citizen is unhappy! I am at 100% war weariness in a single turn.

Wow.

Maybe it is time to start that international lemonade conglomerate.

 

[darski]

This is why I never believe people who tell me that you don't need to defend your cities in Republic. Paranoia can be a very useful trait for Civ players.

 

[TheOverseer714]

My plan is to go ahead and have a revolt and go commie. Maybe I will save it before picking and try fascism too and see which one works better to achieve my two goals. 1. Exterminate the English! and 2. to still launch a spaceship. I got the Maya from my continent on my side to absorb some troops while I begin a monster military build up. The English are going to pay in blood for their betrayal!

 

[TheOverseer714]

At unmodded Emperor level, the AI gets most, if not all of those happy wonders, and I don't build many temples, cathedrals, colosseums. Not that those would have made a dent in the level of unhappiness. Strangely, the anarchy was actually happy and nearly painless, and my income is about the same under Communism due to no unit costs. The science is suffering some, but not bad. Interesting results so far.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

you usually need a crust defense in a game like that, and signing ROP is just really dangerous, especially once you have rails.

I've had people who i was friends with for 4000 years send 1 spear into an undefended core city as they pass through, breaking a deal where they are getting multiple luxuries... just because it's a nice city.

 

[TheOverseer714]

It was actually just a sneak attack, and the crust crumbled fast. I guess undefended cities are just too tempting. The RoP was implied, not actual. There was an MPP in place, and there were gettig 3 luxes from me. Just shows to trust no one.

 

[ecuwins]

I knew there was a reason I never ROP. If an AI's troops trickle through my land to get to someone they are at war with then I let them. If I see a big stack coming then I tell it to leave or DOW. If it DOW, so be it, someone is going to die!!!

 

[AutomatedTeller]

ahh

Yeah, that's one large disadvantage to the way humans tend to build cities - CxxC makes it way to easy for the AI to take undefended cities.

That happened to me in a 20K game - cavalry attack took maybe 10 cities on the initial turn - they ran out of cavalry before they got to the 20K city. Course, it took a turn to take them all back, then maybe 5 or 10 for me to wipe out the civ, but was a big pain.

 

[Optional]

Overseer, your 'accident' could never have been completely prevented, I think. The risk is part of being in a Republic. Stacks of fast attacking AI units can roam everywhere. Even when they're outside your territory they're dangerous, but you cannot afford huge stacks of defensive units everywhere. You probably didn't do anything wrong.

I try to keep track of how strong my opponants are, and I'll build more military if my military advisor says my military is 'weak'. That's probably all I do, to have an answer. It would really suck to build a load of cathedrals and happiness stuff only for incase the AI would all of a sudden strike, nah...
In my experience all AI wars start as sneak attacks, unless an AI has been bought into the war by someone else. But I've never experienced such a systematic attack as you did, losing several towns in one turn.

I think there was only one thing to do, and that was to revolt, so you did the right thing as far as I can see.

 

[timerover51]

I guess that is why I stay in Monarchy, and never trust the AI. Always keep at least 3 first line defenders in each city.

 

[Quintillus]

As to the insta-war-weariness - that would be due to having previous wars for which the war weariness has not completely worn off. Had you never had a war before there wouldn't have been any happiness drop.

I'm guessing since it dropped happiness to zero (never seen it that low before - nice accomplishment) you'd had quite a few wars before, and fairly recently.

 

[Bartleby]

The insta-WW is a result of losing all the specialist farms. Each town captured or razed adds 17 points to the war weariness total (in Republic, >120 wwp = 100% unhappy). Also, you can quicky end up in bad WW if the AI attacks a well-defended town with an obsolete SOD, since each attack also adds 2 WW points.

How does war weariness work? article by Oystein

 

[Rodent]

Bad Planning Dude, Use some defensive units, with rails they are very effective.

And make sure that in the next game, you are the one whos doing the ROP-raping

 

[anaxagoras]

I guess that is why I stay in Monarchy, and never trust the AI. Always keep at least 3 first line defenders in each city.

Wow. That's quite a drain on your economy. With no commerce bonus, you are effectively spending a LOT of extra cash for a defense-in-depth that is unnecessary about 95% of the time. Unless you are opting for AW, this seems wasteful to me.

The situation Overseer is in is extremely rare. It is very unusual for the AI to have the forces assembled for a 10-town sneak attack. More typically such an attack could nab two or three towns, which gives you a level of WW you can live with until you can assemble the forces to beat the beejeebers out of the AI and get them to pay you for peace.

Also, a few defenders scattered here and there can dramatically slow down the AI. Anything they don't get for free limits the amount of damage they can inflict on a single turn. Instead of 3 first-rate units for each town, I typically use the inverse of that: maybe one first-rate unit for each three towns, with a small mobile reserve for local counter-attacks.

In my current game I have been forced to increase my defense somewhat, though, since I started in the middle of a pangea. I can't go to war with anyone without having a two-front problem, so I need to pick a side for my SOD, and run a decent defense force to guard the other side. I've had two wars this way, and have lost a town or two in each. I've recaptured those towns and collected significant "interest" along the way. Two more wars until I'll have a single front, and can save 100gpt as I pare down my military.

 

[rysingsun]

yes, ww is not caused by time at war, but by what goes on in your war, and losing a bunch of cities will do it. it could have been almost funny if you were in democracy and your government fell in one turn

you wont' like fascism. communism may work ok. its better than monarchy, so if you can't get out of the war, then you get one of those rare opportunities where communism actually makes sense

soooo.... you like specialist farms. well, under communism specialist farms are kind of iffy. that's the only thing i really don't like about it.

consider doing some drafting before you revolt to anarchy. you may need it.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I basically conceded that whole continent for now, it was impossible to defend, since they took the port. As a Republic, I was paying 60-80 gpt in unit costs and I was weak compared to the English. At Emperor, the AI tends to have larger militaries than you, there's no way you can afford to have enough troops to defend every town effectively. I guess that the potential downside of Republics with specialist farms, you depend on the AI being honorable. I had never been at war with the English, so it wasn't 'legacy' war weariness. Losing a bunch of towns in one turn was apparently enough. I guess Attitude is very deceptive, as they were polite when they pulled their attack. Fortunately, it was not my main specialist farm area, so I'm still okay there. I will see what I can do about pounding them, but they also have a huge navy, so it could be difficult. There may be nukes involved, we'll see.

 

[CommandoBob]

No save to show us how bad the English mauled you?

 

[Optional]

Was this an island map? I've only gotten into trouble with Republic once, and that was on an island map.
It's easy enough to control your own island, but those few towns on another continent, where other civs have a stronger presence, can give you a real war weariness problem if you have to defend them.
It's impossible to say whether paying 60 - 80 gold per turn for unit maintainance is a lot or a little without knowing your total budget. I believe I'm on average 3 times over my support limit in Republic without a problem.
Maybe Republic wasn't the right government here. Having a weaker army than your opponants in a map situation where you've got vital property far away from your core is a problem.

 

[Tone]

This is why I never believe people who tell me that you don't need to defend your cities in Republic.

I can't say for sure but I suspect that most people talk about the fact that you do not need to defend every city. I often do leave border cities undefended but I realise that I am taking a risk. It is just a risk that I am sometimes willing to take to push the projected finish date to be as early as I can get it. However I wouldn't recommend having no defence in border towns though, and I never sign RoPs so I only need to cover the cities that are within 2/3 tiles of the border plus have a mobile coering force for any foreign units passing through.

I basically conceded that whole continent for now, it was impossible to defend, since they took the port. As a Republic, I was paying 60-80 gpt in unit costs and I was weak compared to the English.

Hopefully you abandonned your towns or gifted them to other AIs though rather than let the English walk into the remainder?