"Insurance for everybody"

Maybe you should switch gears and try it.

I would do that but it would involve me abandoning civilized society and moving into the woods somewhere, living off the land, and not making use of any sort of service or technology provided by society.

I owe society something because I'm a part of it, and society owes me something in return. I'm sorry that you would prefer to live in a world where this isn't the case. However, like I said, I don't see you moving to the middle of nowhere and living off the land. Nah, instead you use all the things that society provides for you, whether it's the infrastructure or services funded by tax payers, all while you decry those who do the same.
 
I was a taxpayer then, too. This year I filed to pay more than you probably earn.

And for the record, I'm happy for you. I'd never demand a cent or a piece of your fancy car or nice clothes or access to *cosmetic* surgeries you might have or anything like that. I'm not about envy for it's own sake, and my congrats is 100% sincere for having your life together.

If you think I'm about envy you don't understand where I'm coming from. Nor if you think it's about shallow emotional manipulation.

To me it's about realism. This is the system I genuinely feel will work best. As much as I respect the founding fathers, at the end of the day, I lean more towards the side of "what works, works." If it turns out that Republican ideas actually DO work better somehow, I'm open to that as well. I'm just less open to that than perhaps I once was.
 
I owe society something because I'm a part of it, and society owes me something in return.

I have an ANCAP friend and I keep trying to make this point. The weak/poor benefit from the safety society provides in the form of medical care they can't actually afford, food that they perhaps can't afford, etc. The wealthy benefit from having protection from actual looting ( not the insufferable Ayn Rand kind. )

I dunno, I've turned back left over the last six months or so. I guess I got over my disgust at the safe-spacers finally.

EDIT: And to be sure, I'm not the leftmost person here by far. And I could shout back and forth with metalhead about stuff like reparations even now, but I still have a "left" sort of mentality. I guess it just makes more sense to me.
 
I have an ANCAP friend and I keep trying to make this point.

It's hard to convince someone who's basing their argument along ideological lines. They are usually stuck to their ideology no matter what and will likely see your attempts as an attack on the ideology itself, not the initial argument presented.

It's why I refuse to align myself with any sort of political ideology. It would only work if one happened to align with my views 100% and morphed over time as my views change. That's never going to happen.
 
I was a taxpayer then, too. This year I filed to pay more than you probably earn.
It is a shame that you had to pay taxes rather than just be able to purchase your own road. Being tossed out on a government-funded and owned street must have been traumatic.

As for your tax bill being more than my earnings, I sincerely hope so. You must have quite an income or a lousy tax accountant or both.
 
Lemme lay some education down on y’all.

The Republicans have sworn to repeal and replace the existing Romneycare system. However, what the end result of that effort looks like is very unclear. There are competing Republican ideas from leaders in the House, Senate, and the incoming White House. It is way too early to make an accurate prediction as to what repeal and replace will look like. We can, however, make some educated guesses based existing plan drafts.

One of the most detailed repeal and replace plan at present comes from Speaker of the House Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan’s “A Better Way” details reform of Romneycare that one might assume, ab argumentum, is representative of an ultimate repeal and replace end point. “A Better Way” details a plan that would maintain guaranteed issued and has means by which insurance plans and insurance purchasers can spread risk to lessen the cost consequences of guaranteed issue. Given that the Ryan plan forces insurers to maintain guaranteed issue, it can hardly be said that the plan denies people health coverage.

Other Republican plans also preserve guaranteed issue. Tom Price’s plan, which is a bit more legislation ready than Ryan’s, mandates guaranteed issue for those individuals who have maintained coverage. Trump has not yet released a plan but he has indicated that his plan will have a guaranteed issue provision. In short, the regulations on the insurance industry that Republican leadership are proposing will force insurers to issue coverage to those parties who, say ten or twenty years ago, could not find accessible coverage. Other Republicans will likely propose only repealing Romneycare and not providing a reform-based replacement, but those Republicans are not demonstrative of leadership or of Republicans as a whole.

The Republican plans, as most of them stand, would increase coverage for individuals when contrasted with the insurance market of ten years ago. However, the Republican plans, as purposed, will not achieve the stated goals of reducing insurance costs because they are fundamentally flawed economically. Ryan’s plan, as purposed, is not a viable long-term means to provide and pay for reasonably-priced health insurance of Americans. Prices will jump under Republican plans, but the Republicans wouldn’t admit that. Then again, Obama’s ACA was (and is) also fundamentally flawed such that it was itself non-viable in the long term, and it resulted in price jumps as well.

In short, the Republican plans as proposed do not involve forcing people to choice between death and begging at a charity. The plans conceive of means by which people can purchase insurance at a reasonable price despite any pre-existing conditions. That said, the promises made by the Republicans in terms of reducing healthcare costs will not be realized, just as Obama’s promises of reducing healthcare costs were not.
 
It's kind of hilarious to watch a large group of people, living in the industrialized World, being so staunchly against universal health care, as it have been implemented in Europe, Canada etc. for 70 years and counting. Whatever the US politicians brainwashed the US citizens with post WWII and onwards, it sure did its work.
 
For those who find this "laying of education down" too long...

Lemme lay some education down on y’all.

The Republicans have sworn to repeal and replace the existing Romneycare system. However, what the end result of that effort looks like is very unclear. There are competing Republican ideas from leaders in the House, Senate, and the incoming White House. It is way too early to make an accurate prediction as to what repeal and replace will look like. We can, however, make some educated guesses based existing plan drafts.

One of the most detailed repeal and replace plan at present comes from Speaker of the House Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan’s “A Better Way” details reform of Romneycare that one might assume, ab argumentum, is representative of an ultimate repeal and replace end point. “A Better Way” details a plan that would maintain guaranteed issued and has means by which insurance plans and insurance purchasers can spread risk to lessen the cost consequences of guaranteed issue. Given that the Ryan plan forces insurers to maintain guaranteed issue, it can hardly be said that the plan denies people health coverage.

Other Republican plans also preserve guaranteed issue. Tom Price’s plan, which is a bit more legislation ready than Ryan’s, mandates guaranteed issue for those individuals who have maintained coverage. Trump has not yet released a plan but he has indicated that his plan will have a guaranteed issue provision. In short, the regulations on the insurance industry that Republican leadership are proposing will force insurers to issue coverage to those parties who, say ten or twenty years ago, could not find accessible coverage. Other Republicans will likely propose only repealing Romneycare and not providing a reform-based replacement, but those Republicans are not demonstrative of leadership or of Republicans as a whole.

The Republican plans, as most of them stand, would increase coverage for individuals when contrasted with the insurance market of ten years ago. However, the Republican plans, as purposed, will not achieve the stated goals of reducing insurance costs because they are fundamentally flawed economically. Ryan’s plan, as purposed, is not a viable long-term means to provide and pay for reasonably-priced health insurance of Americans. Prices will jump under Republican plans, but the Republicans wouldn’t admit that. Then again, Obama’s ACA was (and is) also fundamentally flawed such that it was itself non-viable in the long term, and it resulted in price jumps as well.

In short, the Republican plans as proposed do not involve forcing people to choice between death and begging at a charity. The plans conceive of means by which people can purchase insurance at a reasonable price despite any pre-existing conditions. That said, the promises made by the Republicans in terms of reducing healthcare costs will not be realized, just as Obama’s promises of reducing healthcare costs were not.

...it says the same thing I said here:

Correct. They are advocating "this proven failure of economic policy might magically work this time...and if it doesn't only the poor will be faced with find a charity or die so it's worth the risk."
 
Lemme lay some education down on y’all.

The Republicans have sworn to repeal and replace the existing Romneycare system. However, what the end result of that effort looks like is very unclear. There are competing Republican ideas from leaders in the House, Senate, and the incoming White House. It is way too early to make an accurate prediction as to what repeal and replace will look like. We can, however, make some educated guesses based existing plan drafts.

One of the most detailed repeal and replace plan at present comes from Speaker of the House Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan’s “A Better Way” details reform of Romneycare that one might assume, ab argumentum, is representative of an ultimate repeal and replace end point. “A Better Way” details a plan that would maintain guaranteed issued and has means by which insurance plans and insurance purchasers can spread risk to lessen the cost consequences of guaranteed issue. Given that the Ryan plan forces insurers to maintain guaranteed issue, it can hardly be said that the plan denies people health coverage.

Other Republican plans also preserve guaranteed issue. Tom Price’s plan, which is a bit more legislation ready than Ryan’s, mandates guaranteed issue for those individuals who have maintained coverage. Trump has not yet released a plan but he has indicated that his plan will have a guaranteed issue provision. In short, the regulations on the insurance industry that Republican leadership are proposing will force insurers to issue coverage to those parties who, say ten or twenty years ago, could not find accessible coverage. Other Republicans will likely propose only repealing Romneycare and not providing a reform-based replacement, but those Republicans are not demonstrative of leadership or of Republicans as a whole.

The Republican plans, as most of them stand, would increase coverage for individuals when contrasted with the insurance market of ten years ago. However, the Republican plans, as purposed, will not achieve the stated goals of reducing insurance costs because they are fundamentally flawed economically. Ryan’s plan, as purposed, is not a viable long-term means to provide and pay for reasonably-priced health insurance of Americans. Prices will jump under Republican plans, but the Republicans wouldn’t admit that. Then again, Obama’s ACA was (and is) also fundamentally flawed such that it was itself non-viable in the long term, and it resulted in price jumps as well.

In short, the Republican plans as proposed do not involve forcing people to choice between death and begging at a charity. The plans conceive of means by which people can purchase insurance at a reasonable price despite any pre-existing conditions. That said, the promises made by the Republicans in terms of reducing healthcare costs will not be realized, just as Obama’s promises of reducing healthcare costs were not.

No, see, here's the problem - the Ryan plan, the Tom Price plan, all GOP replacement plans that I have seen involve using so-called high risk pools to offer coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. High risk pools are not a new idea - 34 states had high risk pools at the time the ACA passed. They suffered from many, many problems, the most glaring of which is that the premiums were extremely high, and the plans offered had high deductibles and covered little before the deductible ran out. On top of that, the plans also had lifetime maximums. AND, worst of all - these pools and the really crappy insurance available through them were subsidized by the federal government. Across all 34 state high risk pools, maximum enrollment was 200,000 people because the plans were generally far too expensive for most people to buy, even with the feds kicking in substantial subsidies to the pools.

Guaranteed issue is completely meaningless if people can't afford the policies. Nominal "health insurance" is likewise meaningless if the policy doesn't cover anything. Also, premising guaranteed issue on continuous coverage is totally meaningless if you don't prohibit insurers from tossing people off their plans - a huge gap that I don't think any of these replacement plans really addresses - and is also going to lead to people who hit lifetime maximums being uninsurable, just as they were before the ACA.

If you strip away the minimum coverage requirements, and stick people with pre-existing conditions into high-risk pools, they are going to mostly end up uninsured. We know this because this has been tried before. These plans do not improve on the insurance market of 10 years ago, they are the market of 10 years ago. If high risk pools were a workable method of extending health insurance to people with pre-existing conditions, there never would have been a need to replace that system with the ACA. So don't be fooled - these plans by and large do NOT provide accessible coverage.

Then you have the issue of the Medicaid expansion, which is where the majority of the newly insured got their coverage. The Republican plans want to block grant Medicaid to the states, but say nothing about how much they want to pay, if they will make any kind of coverage requirements, or really do anything to ensure that people currently covered under the expansion - or even under pre-expansion Medicaid - will continue to be covered.

In short, these plans are structured to functionally deny coverage to many, if not most, of the people who received coverage under the ACA. They also leave Congress free to decrease funding of high-risk pools and/or Medicaid at any time, which I don't think I need to tell you is a disaster waiting to happen.

You know how you know this is all BS designed to deny people coverage? The fundamental things they are proposing are what the ACA is already doing - there is functionally little difference between using tax dollars to subsidize insurance for high-risk enrollees, and placing high risk enrollees into the general insurance pools, and spreading the cost around to all of the enrollees. Whether I pay an extra $100/month for insurance, or $1200 of my yearly tax dollars are used to subsidize a high risk pool, the outcome is the same. The only difference is under the high risk pool scenario, Congress retains the power to fund the pools, or not. So ask yourself - why do they want that power? Specifically, Republicans, why do they want that power? It ought to be self-evident.
 
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You have fire departments in the US, yes?

They are tax payer funded. If a fire erupts in their local area, they deal with it. It doesn't matter what the burning building is made of - they'll extinguish the fire. Because that is in the common interest of everybody in the long run.

Copy this fundamental principle and build your national healthcare provision on a similar basis. It's much cheaper than what you have now, too.

It's not hard, really. :)
 
You have fire departments in the US, yes?

They are tax payer funded. If a fire erupts in their local area, they deal with it. It doesn't matter what the burning building is made of - they'll extinguish the fire. Because that is in the common interest of everybody in the long run.

That's not universally true.

The only difference is under the high risk pool scenario, Congress retains the power to fund the pools, or not. So ask yourself - why do they want that power? Specifically, Republicans, why do they want that power? It ought to be self-evident.
I don’t think that proposing a crappy, half-baked plan is evidence that the plan’s proponents are heartless monsters.
 
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US fire departments can choose whether they want to put out fires or not? Or what are you hinting at?
 
There are towns where owners are asked to pay annual fees to support firefighting services. If a landowner opts not to pay the fee then the firefighters do not provide their services.
I don’t recommend renting apartments in those towns.
 
Wow. I did not know that. That's mental.

So... what if a non-covered building catches fire and then spreads it to other covered buildings, because the fire department didn't put out the first fire in the first place - then what? Does that sound like a smart system? :)
 
I don’t think that proposing a crappy, half-baked plan is evidence that the plan’s proponents are heartless monsters.

Proposing a crappy half baked plan that has already been tried and has been demonstrated to have bad consequences for people, while promoting oneself to other people using "yeah but it didn't have bad consequences for you in particular" as justification might very well qualify for 'heartless monster' status...not only in the people proposing the plan, but in the people supporting them.
 
Proposing a crappy half baked plan that has ready been tried and has been demonstrated to have bad consequences for people, while promoting oneself to other people using "yeah but it didn't have bad consequences for you in particular" as justification might very well qualify for 'heartless monster' status...not only in the people proposing the plan, but in the people supporting them.
Based on that standard, where do you peg Democrats who pushed through the Affordable Care Act despite its obvious flaws? They took a system that worked reasonably well at a state level and changed it around just enough so it would obviously fail at the national level.

The reason why I can't call people who purposed half-baked solution as monsters isn't because they aren't jerks, but because the list would be so long that its very length would make its members appear not as much monstrous as much as typical and representative.
Wow. I did not know that . That's mental.

So... what if a non-covered building catches fire and then spreads it to other covered buildings, because the fire department didn't put out the first fire in the first place - then what? Does that sound like a smart system? :)
They fight the fire to the extent that it threatens covered property.
See; http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2010/10/fire-subscription-service.html
 
Based on that standard, where do you peg Democrats who pushed through the Affordable Care Act despite its obvious flaws? They took a system that worked reasonably well at a state level and changed it around just enough so it would obviously fail at the national level.

There is a qualitative difference between "well, things are going to feces, let's try this" and "we said this wouldn't work, and even though all our dire predictions have so far failed to materialize let's replace it with something that has been tried and clearly failed."
 
Fair enough. I think there were some major cracks starting to show in the ACA in 2016. Insurers were dropping out of the exchanges, rate increases of 20% or more were reported, and it generally seemed at least as bad in terms of cost increases as it did in, say, 2006-08. The ACA was going to crap, and it was the same crap we were facing in 2008. The ACA needed reform.
The Republican reform options are not sustainable long-term solutions, but neither was the ACA. I have a hard time just painting all politicians as monsters simply because they want to twiddle with regulations.
 
I don’t think that proposing a crappy, half-baked plan is evidence that the plan’s proponents are heartless monsters.

I don't really care what is in their hearts, they're proposing an ACA replacement plan which will have the net effect of providing coverage and, ultimately, health care to fewer Americans. And they know or should know that that will be the outcome of what they are proposing. This isn't something they just cobbled together last week, either; if you go back to 2008, this is the same stuff McCain was proposing, the same stuff that Heritage pushed once Obama stole their/Romney's idea. They know what will happen, and it's fair to ask why they are going to pass something that covers fewer people. It seems to me that it should be considered intentional.

In this case, I don't think they will get away with it because it almost certainly won't come to pass - and if it does, there will be consequences. So I'm relatively sanguine about it overall. But it still needs to be called out for what it is.

Based on that standard, where do you peg Democrats who pushed through the Affordable Care Act despite its obvious flaws? They took a system that worked reasonably well at a state level and changed it around just enough so it would obviously fail at the national level.

I don't know that it has "failed." More people have coverage. In many states, the exchanges are working just fine. Baseline coverage is not prohibitively expensive, people with pre-existing conditions are getting covered, and many more lower-income people have access to insurance and through it, preventive care.

You can't pass a large market reform and have it work perfectly out-of-the-box. It's not like they were passing the ACA with the expectation that it wouldn't have to be tinkered with. The problems it has are fixable.
 
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